John Danaher: "The next big evolution in Bjj is developing a unique standing position"

Hanzou

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This guy is probably the best Bjj trainer around today. He and his death squad revolutionized leg locking in Bjj, so when he says his next goal is to create a unique standing system for Bjj, I believe him. I'm just rather surprised that he's looking to create something unique instead of just taking from wrestling or Judo.

Anyway, really good video. His insights on grappling are always really interesting.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I think the process has already begun. Most experienced BJJ tournament competitors don't stand the same way they would in a Judo, wrestling, or MMA match. What Danaher is probably talking about that I haven't seen a lot of is a widespread thoroughly systemized approach to the needs of the standing portion of a BJJ match. I have seen some good stuff from Rob Biernacki on his subscription site, but I don't know if any of it is available on free sites like YouTube. (From what I recall, he emphasized the dual threat of takedowns and guard pulls to set up the opponent for a bad position.)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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1. Stand up set up -> 2. stand up throw -> 3. ground control

You have to do 1 right, to do 2 right, you will then get 3 right.

If you have good body control during stand up throw, you will have good body control on the ground.

- A inner hook can turn into a full mount.
- A front cut can turn into a side mount.
- A hip throw can turn into an arm bar.
- A single leg can turn into a leg lock.
- ...

All these has been tested on the mat over and over. In order to do the stand up set up right, many factors have to be considered.
 

JowGaWolf

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Video doesn't surprise me. I've heard the same statements before in reference to BJJ. I don't like BJJ much, but it will be interesting to see where the standup development will go.
 

drop bear

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Yeah?
It is an interesting approach by a guy who can probably pull it off.

But he is going to have to out perform wrestlers and Judokas in stand up to validate his claim. And that will be tough.

But as an example a flying Triangle would be a standing bjj option not seen in judo or wrestling. And so could be a bjj only(yes I am ignoring symbols at the moment) standing option.
 
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Hanzou

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Yeah?
It is an interesting approach by a guy who can probably pull it off.

But he is going to have to out perform wrestlers and Judokas in stand up to validate his claim. And that will be tough.

But as an example a flying Triangle would be a standing bjj option not seen in judo or wrestling. And so could be a bjj only(yes I am ignoring symbols at the moment) standing option.

Yeah, any other person saying they're going to make a Bjj standing system that rivals Judo or Wrestling would be laughed at. However, when Danaher says something like that, you raise an eyebrow and wonder if he can actually pull it off. I mean, he's in (arguably, but not much) the best Bjj school on the planet with some of the best Bjj practitioners in the world right now (largely thanks to him), so he has the perfect test group to do this with.

If they can do what they did with Bjj leg locks and pull it off with Bjj stand up as well, it's going to be a very interesting time indeed.
 

drop bear

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Yeah, any other person saying they're going to make a Bjj standing system that rivals Judo or Wrestling would be laughed at. However, when Danaher says something like that, you raise an eyebrow and wonder if he can actually pull it off. I mean, he's in (arguably, but not much) the best Bjj school on the planet with some of the best Bjj practitioners in the world right now (largely thanks to him), so he has the perfect test group to do this with.

If they can do what they did with Bjj leg locks and pull it off with Bjj stand up as well, it's going to be a very interesting time indeed.

He is also selling a stand up system at the moment.

I threw this to one of my super grappler friends I am interested to hear his response.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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Yeah, any other person saying they're going to make a Bjj standing system that rivals Judo or Wrestling would be laughed at.
In fairness, he's only talking about a standup system that works better than Judo or Wrestling for the specific context of a standard BJJ tournament, where the amplitude/impact of the throw doesn't matter, where takedowns aren't worth many points, where strikes don't exist, where guard pulling is a legitimate strategy, where penalties for passivity are rare, and the most important thing is winning positional points and avoiding submissions. You probably won't find many folks taking this tournament BJJ meta standup strategy and winning Judo, wrestling, or MMA matches with it.
 
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Hanzou

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In fairness, he's only talking about a standup system that works better than Judo or Wrestling for the specific context of a standard BJJ tournament, where the amplitude/impact of the throw doesn't matter, where takedowns aren't worth many points, where strikes don't exist, where guard pulling is a legitimate strategy, where penalties for passivity are rare, and the most important thing is winning positional points and avoiding submissions. You probably won't find many folks taking this tournament BJJ meta standup strategy and winning Judo, wrestling, or MMA matches with it.

Yeah that's what I meant. A system better for competitive Bjj than just copy-pasting wrestling and Judo techniques which is what a lot of people do now.
 

drop bear

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In fairness, he's only talking about a standup system that works better than Judo or Wrestling for the specific context of a standard BJJ tournament, where the amplitude/impact of the throw doesn't matter, where takedowns aren't worth many points, where strikes don't exist, where guard pulling is a legitimate strategy, where penalties for passivity are rare, and the most important thing is winning positional points and avoiding submissions. You probably won't find many folks taking this tournament BJJ meta standup strategy and winning Judo, wrestling, or MMA matches with it.

But still. He kind of has to out stand up gun wrestlers or otherwise what is the point?

And even if there is stylistic wastage. Wrestlers are so good that it doesn't matter that much.

Which is also my argument with bjj and self defence you probably shouldn't be rolling of mount for arm bars because if you screw it you are in trouble.

But if you successfully bar everyone who cares?
 

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There are some differences between a BJJ tournament and judo or wrestling
So I think it makes sense to pick the most effective throws / takedowns that dont expose you to differences in the context
For example quite a few judo throws that are excellent for a judo context create a risk of being turned over into bottom position after a successful throw (which would be ippon in judo, but gets you nowhere in BJJ)
 
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Hanzou

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1. Stand up set up -> 2. stand up throw -> 3. ground control

You have to do 1 right, to do 2 right, you will then get 3 right.

If you have good body control during stand up throw, you will have good body control on the ground.

- A inner hook can turn into a full mount.
- A front cut can turn into a side mount.
- A hip throw can turn into an arm bar.
- A single leg can turn into a leg lock.
- ...

All these has been tested on the mat over and over. In order to do the stand up set up right, many factors have to be considered.

Or you can just Guard Pull -> Submit, or Guard pull > Sweep to top > Submit. Why bother learning a complex throw when you can learn a simple takedown that works into the core of your style and neutralizes superior takedown specialists like Judoka and Wrestlers? And thats the problem Im seeing with this the more I think about it.

Reading some other thoughts on this, I gotta say, Danaher has his work cut out for him. Unlike leg locks which were a needed evolution in Bjj due to competition from Catch and Sambo in the early 2000s, theres no real threat to Bjj that makes this push for better takedowns necessary.

If you want to get better stand up grappling, you go to wrestling period. If you dont care about takedowns, you perfect your ground game and learn to pull Guard. You can win any elite Bjj tournament without high level takedowns, so why spend time learning an entirely new takedown system that can be Guard pulled to death? Heck, Bjj fighters are even pulling Guard in MMA.

Honestly, I think Danaher should have brought out some competitors using this system like he did with leg locks. The herd follows winners, not youtube videos and DVD sets. Maybe he has a few guys training in this now who he's preparing to unleash in the next year or so? With that said, I'll see where this goes. Danaher is a brilliant coach so I have faith that he can do what he's setting out to do. I just think the power of the Guard Pull is a bit too powerful to overcome.
 

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Yeah?
It is an interesting approach by a guy who can probably pull it off.

But he is going to have to out perform wrestlers and Judokas in stand up to validate his claim. And that will be tough.

But as an example a flying Triangle would be a standing bjj option not seen in judo or wrestling. And so could be a bjj only(yes I am ignoring symbols at the moment) standing option.
At the very least, it will be interesting to see what he comes up with and how it fundamentally different from those approaches. If we are lucky, it will be useful beyond BJJ comp.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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so why spend time learning an entirely new takedown system that can be Guard pulled to death? Heck, Bjj fighters are even pulling Guard in MMA.
If A spends 5 years to train pull guard, and B spends 5 years to train how to counter pull guard, my money will be on B.

You can't depend on your complete system on one technique. Pretty soon people will learn how to counter it - such as body slamming.

body-slam.gif


body-slam-3.gif
 
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dunc

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If A spends 5 years to train pull guard, and B spends 5 years to train how to counter pull guard, my money will be on B.

You can't depend on your complete system on one technique. Pretty soon people will learn how to counter it - such as body slamming.

body-slam.gif

I agree with the broader point about not relying or basing your game on a single technique

However, its OK to only have a relatively small number of techniques that you truly master
Eg you can prevent slamming in closed guard if you know how
 

Tony Dismukes

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Or you can just Guard Pull -> Submit, or Guard pull > Sweep to top > Submit. Why bother learning a complex throw when you can learn a simple takedown that works into the core of your style and neutralizes superior takedown specialists like Judoka and Wrestlers? And thats the problem Im seeing with this the more I think about it.

Reading some other thoughts on this, I gotta say, Danaher has his work cut out for him. Unlike leg locks which were a needed evolution in Bjj due to competition from Catch and Sambo in the early 2000s, theres no real threat to Bjj that makes this push for better takedowns necessary.

If you want to get better stand up grappling, you go to wrestling period. If you dont care about takedowns, you perfect your ground game and learn to pull Guard. You can win any elite Bjj tournament without high level takedowns, so why spend time learning an entirely new takedown system that can be Guard pulled to death? Heck, Bjj fighters are even pulling Guard in MMA.

Honestly, I think Danaher should have brought out some competitors using this system like he did with leg locks. The herd follows winners, not youtube videos and DVD sets. Maybe he has a few guys training in this now who he's preparing to unleash in the next year or so? With that said, I'll see where this goes. Danaher is a brilliant coach so I have faith that he can do what he's setting out to do. I just think the power of the Guard Pull is a bit too powerful to overcome.
If Danaher's ideas are similar to what I saw from Biernacki, he's likely looking at using takedowns and guard pulls synergistically. Your opponent gives you energy to shut down your takedowns? Use that to set up your guard pull. Your opponent gives you energy to shut down your guard pull? Use that to set up your takedown.

(To be clear, I'm talking about guard pulling to an advantageous position, not just random butt flopping.)
 

drop bear

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If A spends 5 years to train pull guard, and B spends 5 years to train how to counter pull guard, my money will be on B.

You can't depend on your complete system on one technique. Pretty soon people will learn how to counter it - such as body slamming.

body-slam.gif


body-slam-3.gif

Interestingly for safety reasons danaher doesn't do jump guards. Because you can blow the other guys knees out.

Which is also a lot harder to slam.

 
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Hanzou

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Those are jump guards, I'm talking about Guard pulls.

As for which to put money on? I'd put it on the Guard puller, since high level Judoka and Wrestlers seem to utterly despise them to the point where they akin it to cheating.
 
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Hanzou

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If Danaher's ideas are similar to what I saw from Biernacki, he's likely looking at using takedowns and guard pulls synergistically. Your opponent gives you energy to shut down your takedowns? Use that to set up your guard pull. Your opponent gives you energy to shut down your guard pull? Use that to set up your takedown.

(To be clear, I'm talking about guard pulling to an advantageous position, not just random butt flopping.)

Interesting. Well like I said, he has his work cut out for him. Interested in seeing what he develops.
 

JowGaWolf

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Interestingly for safety reasons danaher doesn't do jump guards. Because you can blow the other guys knees out.

Which is also a lot harder to slam.

I wonder if this is one of the reasons why he wants a better stance. I know when I teach kung fu, I'm always yelling at someone for footwork and stances. I don't like to see straight knees during sparring. Too many bad things can happen with straight knees. Knees should always be bent just enough where they won't hyper extend. I've watched a few videos where some of those guys had their legs broken because of straight legs.
 
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