Jion, Ji'in, and Jitte

[TimoS]

Most probable Okinawan introudction was in the instrouctors lineage that Itosu was connected with. The kata are not in the Kyan lineage (hence not in Matsubayshi, Isshinryu, etc).

True. Although Jion is in Shorin ryu Seibukan, i.e. Kyan lineage, it was introduced into the system Zenpo Shimabukuro sensei, who learned it from Nakama Chozo, a student of Chibana, so it isn't a Kyan lineage kata.

 

[Ojisan]

FWIW.... I think that essentially they are all the same kata. They feel, to me, like variations on the same theme, the same sequences etc. Sure there are some differences but if you pull out certain sequences you can find equvalents in the other katas. Granted that Jion is longer then the other two, but most of the movements can be found in the others.

If that is the case, why are there three? I don't know. Why are there three naihanchis?

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I have it from a very good source (first generation Shorinkan) that seisan and jion were once part of the Chibana line. They were dropped before the war (I believe). Nakata Sensei was one of the last teachers licensed by Chibana. Nakata also didn't get the Passai Gwa that Miyahira and Nakama practiced (That I know of). Higa was an early student so this might be why it is in his syllabus. With the adoption of the Pinan kata, it may have been thought to be redundant. This is my speculation.

This is what my research has suggested also. Prior to world war 2 Chibana and other sensei of the time taught different kata than after the war. For what reason it changed I don't know however it did. I learned my Shorinryu via a shorinkan dojo and now they have gone to more of the older ways. I have been away quite awhile and in the process have picked up seisan and jion that I teach. Which I believe was originally there as Ray has suggested.

 

[TimoS]

I have been away quite awhile and in the process have picked up seisan and jion that I teach

Which Seisan version do you teach?

 

[dancingalone]

Why are there three naihanchis?

I've heard of 2 theories. 1) They used to be 1 kata but Itosu split them into 3 for unknown reasons. 2) Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan are actually separate creations of Itosu himself.

 

[leadleg]

The form you refer to as jitte I know as shinte from the moo duk kwan curriculum of GM Richard Chun, I had always assumed it was from the same art as basai.While the way I was taught is different it is very close.

 

[dancingalone]

The form you refer to as jitte I know as shinte from the moo duk kwan curriculum of GM Richard Chun, I had always assumed it was from the same art as basai.While the way I was taught is different it is very close.

That's surprising. Jitte (10 hands) should be analogous to Sip Soo in most Korean karate/Tang Soo Do dojang. There is a kata called Chinte in karate. No chance you have them mixed up?

 

[Makalakumu]

I have it from a very good source (first generation Shorinkan) that seisan and jion were once part of the Chibana line. They were dropped before the war (I believe). Nakata Sensei was one of the last teachers licensed by Chibana. Nakata also didn't get the Passai Gwa that Miyahira and Nakama practiced (That I know of). Higa was an early student so this might be why it is in his syllabus. With the adoption of the Pinan kata, it may have been thought to be redundant. This is my speculation.

This is a great point. Perhaps the kata were thought to be redundant because so many of the sequences appear in other kata.

 

[Makalakumu]

That's surprising. Jitte (10 hands) should be analogous to Sip Soo in most Korean karate/Tang Soo Do dojang. There is a kata called Chinte in karate. No chance you have them mixed up?

Seisan is another kata that is extremely interesting to study. So many style practice it and so many have different variations...but I digress. It's a good topic for another thread.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Which Seisan version do you teach?

Not sure on the version but it is almost identical to Isshin Ryu's Seisan. Alot of that is because I learned primarily from Isshin Ryu sensei and worked on it while in Okinawa with Uechi Sensei.