Jesse Ventura, just a tad crazy?

[Makalakumu]

Its simple really if TSA bothers you and you dont want to be searched charter your own plane, drive to Canada or mexico and get on a plane or dont fly. When you buy your plane ticket and step VOLUNTARILY into the security check point you have waived your right to search and have consented. No different then on a traffic stop if you consent to have your vehicle searched by the police.Im not saying everthing TSA does is right but there has not been an effective alternative brought up yet. Profiling is not effective for this country. The US is too big and too diverse to try it. We have too Many Lawyers

Couldn't the same argument be used for going just about anywhere? Does anyone else see that the door is pretty much open to search anyone, anywhere, at anytime if they decide to leave their property?

 

[jks9199]

Is searching a person boarding a commercial plane reasonable? Yes. As I stated, there is a legitimate governmental and public interest in keeping dangerous materials and contraband off of a plane. Are the particular methods employed by the TSA reasonable? More arguable, in specific cases. Magnetometer? No problem. X-ray of baggage? Again, no problem. Pat down? Depends on the criteria for selection of "enhanced screening." The current criteria are probably arbitrary and capricious. With a better method of selection -- yes. Backscatter X-ray? My problem there is the lack of transparency in the description of how they work. The TSA can't even get it straight whether they store pictures or not, and given that, I don't trust their statements about how much of a radiation dose.

The "take your shoes off" and randomly defined limits on liquids? We're back into the range of arbitrary and capricious.

 

[Makalakumu]

Is searching a person boarding a commercial plane reasonable? Yes.

Is it reasonable to search me and my whole family? Also, does the way we are using the word "reasonable" really fit the intent of the Founding Fathers? Didn't they mean that the government must have some reason to be suspicious before they search? Isn't that why they have to get a warrent in the first place?

If I was entering an airport with my family and a police officer searched me like the TSA searches me, what would happen?

 

[ballen0351]

If I was entering an airport with my family and a police officer searched me like the TSA searches me, what would happen?

Once you pass the sign that says your subject to search by entering this secured location. Nothing you have implied consent to the search.

 

[Makalakumu]

Once you pass the sign that says your subject to search by entering this secured location. Nothing you have implied consent to the search.

How can you consent to being searched if there are no airlines or airports where you cannot be searched?

If the answer is that you consent simply by choosing to fly? Couldn't that argument be used to search anyone anywhere at anytime?

 

[ballen0351]

How can you consent to being searched if there are no airlines or airports where you cannot be searched?

If the answer is that you consent simply by choosing to fly? Couldn't that argument be used to search anyone anywhere at anytime?

I dont understand the first part of your post. If your at the airport there are airlines.

I dont personally think the search itself is Unconstitutional for reasons I have stated.
I could however see and agree with the argument that its unconstitutional for the Govt to require private companies like airlines to have to follow the security rules in the first place, and thats its a Govt Agency conducting the security. I dont think the Fed should have the power to place regulations on private companies. I think regulations should be left to the state. They will get around this by using the commerce clause but I personally dont think they way the Commerce clause is used now is constitutional either but thats a totally different debate.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There are airlines you can fly without -ANY- TSA involvement.
They just cost more.

 

[Makalakumu]

What airlines are exempt from TSA style security?



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

 

[Makalakumu]

...or what airports?

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

 

[Bob Hubbard]

See post #30.

 

[Makalakumu]

See post #30.

That's what I thought you were referring to...and that, my friend, is just a loophole. It's also an expression of liberty, because freedom cannot be restrained. People always find a way to get what they want.

That said, the State is still crapping all over our natural rights. I have no criminal record. My children are obviously no threat to anyone. There is no reason for the government to force a virtual strip search on me and my family.

Also, no one has tackled the question as to whether the argument for searching basically opens the door for people to be searched anywhere they go simply by the fact that they decided to go there.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'll take the loop holes, until they close them, then I'll find some more.
Or they'll shoot me.

Agreed, but remember, if we don't do this crapping, if we don't molest the kids and harass you and go through all this theater, the "terrorists will win" and in 20 years we might have another plane hijacked, so surely inconveniencing and molesting millions is worth it.

As to searches, of course they can. Cop stops you just needs 'probable cause', and it's your word against the 4 responding cars as to what was 'in plain sight'. We've already established that a cop can issue unlawful orders, destroy evidence, steal property and even assault you should you point a deadly camera at him. Never mind those actions will in 5-6 years get you a nice $100k pay out. Remember, it's in your best interests to shut up, obey, conform. Because if you don't, the criminals will win.

A bit of sarcasm there. But under it, truth. Those with power, intent on doing wrong, will always find a way to do it. The idea that walking through a set of doors suddenly removes my right to anything, is insane. I signed no papers. I gave no verbal consent. My refusal to subject myself to irradiation from machines with questionable safety does not make me a risk. My refusal to trust liars about such things doesn't make me a risk. The truth is, there is little risk. The procedures that were in place on 9-11-01 were adequate to stop the majority of risks.
What were the hijackers weapons? Box cutters. I have about 1,000,000 of these from my days as a stock boy.
Not guns, knives or explosives. Box cutters.
Why did things get ugly? Because hijackers prior to 9/11 wanted to make political statements, get a free ride to Cuba. They didn't become suicide weapons.
All the extra stuff at the airports, all the precautions, all the delays, the nudiscans, the rub downs, the kids deprived of sippy cups and the old women deprived of their yogurt, and -thousands- of weapons are still getting through, due to poorly trained screeners using ineffective techniques on equipment they can't run right.
To be blunt, 9/11 could happen again today, because -nothing- being done by the asshat TSA would stop it. Not a Bob damn thing.
But, since no more planes have hit any more buildings, it must be working, so lets expand into other things and screen bus riders -AFTER- they get off the bus.
Hey, lets pat them down in the parking lot before they get into their cars.
Makes as much sense.
But we'll allow it because we're fricken sheep.

America's lost it's bollocks.

 

[CanuckMA]

Once you pass the sign that says your subject to search by entering this secured location. Nothing you have implied consent to the search.

So if a town adds a line that you are subject to be searched on their 'Welcome to...' sign, then it is your contention that any LEO could strip down your car?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Legal at any border crossing, and up to 100 miles from the US border.

 

[ballen0351]

So if a town adds a line that you are subject to be searched on their 'Welcome to...' sign, then it is your contention that any LEO could strip down your car?

not a town but def buildings in the town like court house, jail, govt offices, a bank, certain stores ect. Just an entire town is too broad. Do you get offended when patted down and put thru metal detector when going into the court house? Should there be no security at airports? Just allow everything and everyone on planes?

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah Im sick of all these corrupt cops running around America. Beating people planting evidence. Just last week I got locked up 6 times because they planted evidence on me. Its an epidemic in america on the scale as great as this country has ever seen. I say we do away with all cops and security. The founding fathers would have never agreeded to cops. Security haha it don't work anyway so why have it its pointless. Why have laws people will still break them so what's the point right.Well I must run I see a kid with a camera over there I need to go punch her in the face and smash her camera. Thank god for sheep makes my job so much fun

I'll take the loop holes, until they close them, then I'll find some more.Or they'll shoot me. Agreed, but remember, if we don't do this crapping, if we don't molest the kids and harass you and go through all this theater, the "terrorists will win" and in 20 years we might have another plane hijacked, so surely inconveniencing and molesting millions is worth it.As to searches, of course they can. Cop stops you just needs 'probable cause', and it's your word against the 4 responding cars as to what was 'in plain sight'. We've already established that a cop can issue unlawful orders, destroy evidence, steal property and even assault you should you point a deadly camera at him. Never mind those actions will in 5-6 years get you a nice $100k pay out. Remember, it's in your best interests to shut up, obey, conform. Because if you don't, the criminals will win. A bit of sarcasm there. But under it, truth. Those with power, intent on doing wrong, will always find a way to do it. The idea that walking through a set of doors suddenly removes my right to anything, is insane. I signed no papers. I gave no verbal consent. My refusal to subject myself to irradiation from machines with questionable safety does not make me a risk. My refusal to trust liars about such things doesn't make me a risk. The truth is, there is little risk. The procedures that were in place on 9-11-01 were adequate to stop the majority of risks.What were the hijackers weapons? Box cutters. I have about 1,000,000 of these from my days as a stock boy.Not guns, knives or explosives. Box cutters.Why did things get ugly? Because hijackers prior to 9/11 wanted to make political statements, get a free ride to Cuba. They didn't become suicide weapons.All the extra stuff at the airports, all the precautions, all the delays, the nudiscans, the rub downs, the kids deprived of sippy cups and the old women deprived of their yogurt, and -thousands- of weapons are still getting through, due to poorly trained screeners using ineffective techniques on equipment they can't run right. To be blunt, 9/11 could happen again today, because -nothing- being done by the asshat TSA would stop it. Not a Bob damn thing.But, since no more planes have hit any more buildings, it must be working, so lets expand into other things and screen bus riders -AFTER- they get off the bus.Hey, lets pat them down in the parking lot before they get into their cars.Makes as much sense.But we'll allow it because we're fricken sheep.America's lost it's bollocks.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Funny side bar. I was in court waiting on my ex to show up a few years ago. She set off the metal detector. Cause - underwire bra with enough metal to build a grill in it. (ok, slight exaggeration there). I don't know who was more embarrassed, her or the county cop who had to ask and wand her. Was the high point of that day.


Court house - Attorneys walk -around- the detectors with closed briefs all the time. Cops too.
Government offices - Saw several folks avoid any screening there too.
Banks - never saw anyone patted down, forced to take their belt an shoes off and put through detectors before getting access at the bank. I wouldn't use any that did that either.
Stores - Any store that tries to search me better have a real cop there, and will be getting an earful.

Back to the court house, was I offended? No. Annoyed I couldn't have my phone on me. Amused when they couldn't answer how they detect non-metallic weapons, and non-traditional types.

Back to airports...
A few companies make non-metallic blades, durable enough for limited use, razor sharp.
Ceramic knives, combat plastics, glass all don't set off metal detectors, and properly placed will slip through xrayed bags.
The materials needed to make a small explosive (enough to pressurized a small plane) fit in a pack of gum, can be sealed to eliminate residue detection, and quickly mixed during take off. Also will slip through all current air port screening.

Lets be frank, they are missing 12" razors, loaded hand guns, and bowie knives by the hundreds. Thousands of people are getting on planes with the wrong tickets, expired tickets, even no tickets, despite a minimum of -4- screening layers.
But they're catching drug users (not security issue), old ladies (not security issue), and campaign managers carrying large amounts of cash (not security issue).

So it must be working right?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Yeah Im sick of all these corrupt cops running around America. Beating people planting evidence. Just last week I got locked up 6 times because they planted evidence on me. Its an epidemic in america on the scale as great as this country has ever seen. I say we do away with all cops and security. The founding fathers would have never agreeded to cops. Security haha it don't work anyway so why have it its pointless. Why have laws people will still break them so what's the point right.Well I must run I see a kid with a camera over there I need to go punch her in the face and smash her camera. Thank god for sheep makes my job so much fun

You missed my point.
But, I am sick of the couple hundred corrupt cops out there, the couple thousand 'decent but too lazy to do their jobs right' who make up crap as they go because they missed the last 5 department memos on how to behave, and the 10 thousand or so who -aren't up to date- on laws because they weren't properly trained/informed/updated so make honest mistakes, but end up causing PR issues and tax payers money in settlements that could have been easily avoided.

So, point by point:
"Cop stops you" I have to stop if a cop stops me right?
"it's your word against the 4 responding cars as to what was 'in plain sight'." Am I wrong? Has there ever been a case where 4 cops say they saw something, an individual say they didn't and a court found the cops were wrong, based only on the word of all involved?
If a cop says "stop taking pictures" with the reason "it's illegal" when in fact it is legal, is that a "lawful order"?
If a cop takes my camera and deletes the photos on it, is that not "destroying evidence"?
If a cop takes my camera when he has no legal right to do so, is that not "stealing"?
If a cop smacks my camera down, or out of my hands, is that not "assault"?

Where was I wrong?

Take it all as an attack on cops, or take it as an attack on corruption and stupidity.
Don't matter to me, I'll still get 10 votes for President in 2012.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Now, lets go back to -airport- security.

4 main screening points.
The ticket counter
The ID check
The xray machine
The gate check.

Ticket counter.
Currently requires you use the same credit card you used to buy to check in with.
Doesn't do anything really as you can pass off the card to someone else before continuing on.
Counter clerk takes your ID for a looksie. They are matching faces, not verifying it's real ID.
Test runs with fake ID have breached this 100% of the time.

The ID check.
TSA goon takes your ticket and ID, gives them a bored glance, matches the -names-, scribbles something on your ticket and passes you along.
Fake ID and in fact fake tickets, near 100% success rate breaching this stage.
As effective as the guy at the door of the membership club with the hole punch.

The Xray machines.
Harder to fool. Relies on bored and complacent or poorly trained screeners to breach.
Test runs by random 3rd party have an over 70% failure rate (meaning security is breached).
TSA tests run by known testers at scheduled times are 100% successful. I wonder why.
Real world failure rate estimated to be upwards of 40%

The gate check.
Simply matches the face on the ID and the name on the ID with the name on the ticket.
Failure rate here is under 5%, and usually results in someone getting on the wrong plane.


Now, the -law enforcement- folks here can easily spot a few holes I'm sure.
Like, when was the ID ran against government databases to check validity?

It's theater. It's not effective. It's a waste of money, time and manpower to screen as we are.

There are a number of less invasive, less annoying, less inefficient ways to secure air travel, while not making old men take off their shoes and little kids go without their juice. That's my point, that's Jesse's, that's a lot of peoples point.

 

[ballen0351]

Funny side bar. I was in court waiting on my ex to show up a few years ago. She set off the metal detector. Cause - underwire bra with enough metal to build a grill in it. (ok, slight exaggeration there). I don't know who was more embarrassed, her or the county cop who had to ask and wand her. Was the high point of that day.
My wife was a deputy for a while and did court security for a few months and the stuff people bring in was always funny. Little tip people when your coming to court for a drug case remember and you empty your pockets before entering the metal detector leave your bag of crack in the car.

Court house - Attorneys walk -around- the detectors with closed briefs all the time. Cops too.
not all court houses. Our circuit court house only people that are allowed to bypass security is uniformed officers and court house staff with a proper security badge. I work plain clothes I cant even bring a gun in the court house even if I show them my bagde and ID.

Government offices - Saw several folks avoid any screening there too.
Again depends on building and whats in the office

Banks - never saw anyone patted down, forced to take their belt an shoes off and put through detectors before getting access at the bank. I wouldn't use any that did that either.
my bank has 2 entry doors and a security officer and metal detector in between. The dont pat you down but you do cross thru the detector.

Stores - Any store that tries to search me better have a real cop there, and will be getting an earful.
My point was if its private property I can set the rules for people coming in. as long as Im not descriminating against one of the protected classes I can require people o be searched prior to entry. Alot of bars in our down town have pat downs and metal detectors to get in.

Back to the court house, was I offended? No. Annoyed I couldn't have my phone on me. Amused when they couldn't answer how they detect non-metallic weapons, and non-traditional types.

Back to airports...
A few companies make non-metallic blades, durable enough for limited use, razor sharp.
Ceramic knives, combat plastics, glass all don't set off metal detectors, and properly placed will slip through xrayed bags.
The materials needed to make a small explosive (enough to pressurized a small plane) fit in a pack of gum, can be sealed to eliminate residue detection, and quickly mixed during take off. Also will slip through all current air port screening.

Lets be frank, they are missing 12" razors, loaded hand guns, and bowie knives by the hundreds. Thousands of people are getting on planes with the wrong tickets, expired tickets, even no tickets, despite a minimum of -4- screening layers.
But they're catching drug users (not security issue), old ladies (not security issue), and campaign managers carrying large amounts of cash (not security issue).

So it must be working right?
So you can argue they need better training but whats your solution? Get rid of security check points? whats the alternative?

I cant figure out how to multi-quote so I responded in your quote Hopefully it is readable