Jeff Speakman and Kenpo 5.0

donald

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I thought the question was, what do we think of the direction of Mr.Speakman's kenpo? I would like to know what his kenpo is about. I read on a post by Amylong. That she went from 24/Tatum, to 16-20/Speakman. Why, is there a big difference in the "systems"? If so, what are the major differences? Am I correct in stating that Mr.Tatum's kenpo is more of a traditional version? In other words more of what Mr.Parker taught him. Rather than a "version" of what he was taught. Thanks for your consideration.
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Brian Jones

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I thought the question was, what do we think of the direction of Mr.Speakman's kenpo? I would like to know what his kenpo is about. I read on a post by Amylong. That she went from 24/Tatum, to 16-20/Speakman. Why, is there a big difference in the "systems"? If so, what are the major differences? Am I correct in stating that Mr.Tatum's kenpo is more of a traditional version? In other words more of what Mr.Parker taught him. Rather than a "version" of what he was taught. Thanks for your consideration.
1stJohn1:9

Donald,
Essentially, yes. Mr. Tatum teaches what Mr. Parker taught him with, as I udnerstand it no changes. Now remember Mr. Speakman was also one of Mr. Tatum's students. It appears, without my knowing for sure, that Mr. Speakman is simply taking the Kenpo he has been taught and looking at some different applications and scenarios.

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donald

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I was not aware of Mr.Speakman's ties to Mr.Tatum! I had been under the impression that he(Mr.S.)was a private student of Mr.Parker's?
 

Brian Jones

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I am not under Mr. Tatum or Mr. Speakman's lineage, so I will try to get this as straight as possible. Mr. Speakman began with Mr. Tatum and then toward the end of Mr. Parker's life, he became a private student of Mr. Parker. But there are probably more knowlegable people who can verify this.

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Flying Crane

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Well, i don't have Mitose's book in front of me. It's in a storage space at present, but looking at Parker's first book, it sure had a lot of grappling counters in it. Bear hugs, wrist grabs, chokes, side head locks, arm bars, traps, two-on-one grab counters, hammer locks, full nelsons, takedowns, legs sweeps. etc. It's the first book published in 1960 "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand"

All of this is still in Tracys kenpo. I don't know the EPAK curriculum. Has this stuff been removed?
 

Brian Jones

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No it hasn't been removed. In fact most of the attacks are the same, but the response to the attacks has changed. But you will still find EpAK techniques against headlock, hammerlock, bear hug, bear hug whiel somoenone else is punching you, come alongs and figure four come alongs.

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Gufbal1982

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Before I comment on your post, I would like to say one thing. In the beginning, I stated that I do not want this thread to turn into a bashing session on Speakman. If that is your intention, either with this post or with future ones, I suggest its ends now.

Now, as for your post. Perhaps you picked up the issue in the store and glanced through it, but I have my copy sitting in front of me. Let me ask you...do you study BJJ or any grappling related arts? I see nothing that resembles a double leg. If you're talking about the pics on page 76, it states that he uses his left hand to strike to the groin. He is not making an attempt to double leg. He is lifting the leg leg, as clearly shown in the pic. If you've watched any UFC type fights, you should see this type of lift/takedown.

First off, I do study BJJ (which has its roots in JJJ)as well as Japanese JuJitsu (which is strictly standing joint locks.) and a bunch of other styles that go very well with Kenpo. I got my copy in the mail today. I will honestly say I didn't read the captions until I got my copy today. Just glancing at it quickly though in the store, you do have to admit that it looks like a really bad double leg. After reading the captions, I saw that it isn't and that's why I questioned what he was doing. However, don't take this the wrong way, but in that picture on 76, what is Speakman doing with his right arm after the groin strike? I'm not trying to attack him or this thread, but I'd like to know as a martial artist. It doesn't look like it's doing anything functional, really. I actually do watch UFC all the time as well as Pride FC, IFL, WEC, The Gracie Fighting Challenge and any other tournaments/bouts I can get a hold of. I also study Greco Roman wrestling, so let me ask another question. In the sequence with the roundhouse kicks followed by a takedown, how would the takedown be effective with Speakman having double underhooks when Trever Sherman has the better position for a takedown? Just asking about the effectiveness. I will repeat I'm not trying to attack anyone.
 

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I am not under Mr. Tatum or Mr. Speakman's lineage, so I will try to get this as straight as possible. Mr. Speakman began with Mr. Tatum and then toward the end of Mr. Parker's life, he became a private student of Mr. Parker. But there are probably more knowlegable people who can verify this.

Brian Jones
Short version from Speakmans mouth at a seminar in '04. I doubt he would lie especially with Tom Kelly in the room wathching everything.

Speakman was a Goju black belt under Lou Angel and was headed for California. Angel sent him to Parker. Speakman started with Parker but Parker sent him to Tatum who he felt would teach Speakman well. Later Parker changed his mind and called Speakman to train under him.

I think thats the story he told. I wasn't really interested at the time but he gave us a brief version of his history.
 
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MJS

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First off, I do study BJJ

Out of curiosity, who do you study with?


Just glancing at it quickly though in the store, you do have to admit that it looks like a really bad double leg.

To be honest with you, the thought of a double leg never entered my mind. Looking at that pic., he's not in a correct position, so I never even thought that he'd be attempting a move like that, from the position he is in.

but in that picture on 76, what is Speakman doing with his right arm after the groin strike?

Having an arm over the shoulder, should take some of the pressure off of the neck. From there, it looks like he's going for that lift/takedown, to get side control.


In the sequence with the roundhouse kicks followed by a takedown, how would the takedown be effective with Speakman having double underhooks when Trever Sherman has the better position for a takedown?

Pic #6. Jeff is taking his right foot, placing it behind Trevors left. From there, the foot is trapped, and Jeff drives backwards, effecting a takedown. Pic #7 pretty much has Jeff in a mount.

One thing to keep in mind...we can speculate about pics all day long. Fact remains, this is one reason why having a live inst. to show the proper sequence is key. Trying to figure something out from a picture, tape or dvd is going to be pretty hard.

Mike
 

Gufbal1982

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I train with a friend of mine in his garage because I trust him to not injure me. I had a shoulder surgery (ACH reconstruction) from some guy that I grappled with when I had no experience, and well he did. Long story and I'm not going to tell it because I'll be bashing. However, I am going to start training with John Machado soon...just as soon as my shoulder finishes the last of it's rehab. from a surgery that happened almost 3 years ago.
 

Brian Jones

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Short version from Speakmans mouth at a seminar in '04. I doubt he would lie especially with Tom Kelly in the room wathching everything.

Speakman was a Goju black belt under Lou Angel and was headed for California. Angel sent him to Parker. Speakman started with Parker but Parker sent him to Tatum who he felt would teach Speakman well. Later Parker changed his mind and called Speakman to train under him.

I think thats the story he told. I wasn't really interested at the time but he gave us a brief version of his history.

Yep: That's pretty much the story as I heard it as well.

Brian Jones
 

Flying Crane

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I have read thru the article.

I also have minimal instruction in judo. Grappling and ground fighting are by far the weakest chink in my armor and I know that and never try to claim any sort of expertise in that arena.

I have no connection to Mr. Speakman at all, and I am not even an EPAK guy, I'm a Tracys guy.

That being said, I think there might be a bit of over analyzing going on here on the basis of a magazine article. I don't think this article, nor the photos attached to it, are designed nor intended to instruct in the finer points of what Mr. Speakman is doing with kenpo. This is a magazine article, not an instruction manual. He is simply showing and discussing brief and simple examples. In this context, I don't think he would be concerned about presenting things exactly right, because it's not the venue to do so. Photos that get taken for a magazine article are chosen for aesthetic reasons, and that may preclude and ignore the finer points of technique. But I am sure if one were to study with Mr. Speakman, these finer points would be addressed. Actual training would be the proper venue for this, not a brief magazine article that is simply meant to inform the public, in the briefest, shallowest way possible, of what Mr. Speakman has been up to.

I think it needs to be kept in perspective.
 

Kenpojujitsu3

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All of this is still in Tracys kenpo. I don't know the EPAK curriculum. Has this stuff been removed?

Hey Michael. I wouldn't say removed..more like moved to a different place in the system. Buat as far as the strict sequence of the techniques.....yes some of the techniques in the book "Kenpo Karate: Law of the fist and of the Empty Hand" have been removed.
 

Doc

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I was not aware of Mr.Speakman's ties to Mr.Tatum! I had been under the impression that he(Mr.S.)was a private student of Mr.Parker's?

Jeff Speakman received his black belt from Lou Angel in Goju, than relocated to Southern California to study kenpo at the West Los Angeles (previously Santa Monica) school. He trained with and was promoted to black, under and by Larry Tatum, as many other Parker black belts who have bad memories where they actually got there black from. Larry Tatum taught and promoted most of them.

After Larry Tatum was dismissed from Mr. Parker's employ, those not black became students of Larry's black belt Brian Hawkins. Ed Parker than began teaching most Thursday nights when he was available, to keep the school together and retain those Tatum black belts. Thus they all became occasional one day a week, group class Parker students. Parker was not there every week, but was reasonably consistent.

When the movie opportunity presented itself, Parker worked with Jeff on the movie project and fight choreography, as well as in a small group session on Wednesday's at noon for an hour at his house along with Brian Hawkins, and Barbera Hale. This was in an effort to capitalize on the publicity and "branding" of Kenpo in the movie, and to expand his business by opening more schools under his direct control. (He only had 2 and only the Larry tatum run West LA school made money.) Parker was teaching his last ideas for his commercial school expansion.

After Parker passed, Jeff became a student of mine for less than a year and started his own organization in partnership with Brian Hawkins. When they decided to part company, Jeff started his current organization.

Occasionally you will hear stories of students caliming they 'lived' with Ed Parker while they trained. In listening to these claims you must define 'lived.' Dennis Conatser 'lived' with Mr. Parker. Tom Kelly 'lived' with Mr. Parker, Steve LaBounty 'lived' with Mr. Parker, etc. Many of us spent the night at Parker's house at one time or another, (usually around Internationals time), so we all 'lived' with Ed Parker. No one however lived with Mr. Parker for any extended period of time beyond a week or so.
 
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MJS

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That being said, I think there might be a bit of over analyzing going on here on the basis of a magazine article. I don't think this article, nor the photos attached to it, are designed nor intended to instruct in the finer points of what Mr. Speakman is doing with kenpo. This is a magazine article, not an instruction manual. He is simply showing and discussing brief and simple examples. In this context, I don't think he would be concerned about presenting things exactly right, because it's not the venue to do so. Photos that get taken for a magazine article are chosen for aesthetic reasons, and that may preclude and ignore the finer points of technique. But I am sure if one were to study with Mr. Speakman, these finer points would be addressed. Actual training would be the proper venue for this, not a brief magazine article that is simply meant to inform the public, in the briefest, shallowest way possible, of what Mr. Speakman has been up to.

I think it needs to be kept in perspective.

Good points! :) While the topic seems to have drifted a bit towards the article, this was and is not my intention to discuss that. As you said, it is just that..an article. My point of the thread however, was to talk about what he is doing with Kenpo and grappling. There are a few folks here, who have been around a long time, and had the chance to train with Mr. Parker on a regular basis. I'd be very interested in hearing if any of the ground situations were addressed as in-depth, as what Speakman is doing.

HIS art, THE art....this is what I would like to talk about. :)

Mike
 

OneKickWonder

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I recently came across the issue of Black Belt that has an article about Jeff Speakman's Kenpo 5.0 The principles of this curriculum are that he took Ed Parker's system and adapted it to the ground. A few techniques or basics were dropped and new ones added. He worked together with his senior student who is also a well versed grappler to create the new curriculum. My instructor and I were thinking about doing the same thing before we saw this. What are some peoples thoughs on this. I am sure everyone knows that Mr. Speakman was a student of Mr. Parker so I am sure there are mixed feelings out there.
 

Blindside

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I recently came across the issue of Black Belt that has an article about Jeff Speakman's Kenpo 5.0 The principles of this curriculum are that he took Ed Parker's system and adapted it to the ground. A few techniques or basics were dropped and new ones added. He worked together with his senior student who is also a well versed grappler to create the new curriculum. My instructor and I were thinking about doing the same thing before we saw this. What are some peoples thoughs on this. I am sure everyone knows that Mr. Speakman was a student of Mr. Parker so I am sure there are mixed feelings out there.

similar discussion at:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42140

Lamont
 
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MJS

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Just as a note, I merged these two threads together seeing that they're on the same topic. We have a good discussion going so far, and I'd really be interested in hearing more feedback.

Mike
 

Dkjr86

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my instructor had a copy of the demo he sent out to some of his akks guys and honestly his grappling seemed to be less than impressive. i will give him credit for trying to be innovative and i do believe grappling is something that is worthwhile for any martial artist but if his demo is any indication kenpo 5.0 will not be worth learning. Much better off learning how to grapple from one of the traditional grappling arts, that shouldnt be a shocker
 
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