Jab, cross vs. jab, pull, cross

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you train the jab, cross combo, do you add a pull between jab and cross?

Old saying said, "One should not pull his hand back empty." A pull after the jab can open your opponent up more for your cross.

Your thought?

 

[Buka]

Sometimes, yeah. It depends. Sometimes pulling that hand back empty is to block a skilled counter fighter like yourself, because if you don’t...well, you know.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Instead of pulling your empty hand back, if you

- throw a right punch, your opponent blocks it.
- You pull his blocking arm, and punch with another hand.
- When he blocks your 2nd punch, you release your pulling hand and punch him again.

This way, your arm pulling will force your opponent to block with his other arm. your 3rd punch can then punch through the gape between his arms.

 

[Hanzou]

Boxers are the best punchers in the business. I would go there for answers.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Boxers are the best punchers in the business. I would go there for answers.

Boxing has no pulling intention. Without pulling,

- your opponent's arms are free. You can't predict where his arm will be in the next 1/2 second.
- it's difficult to integrate the striking art with the throwing art. If you always think about punch, punch, and punch, when are you going to establish that clinch? If there is no clinch, there will be no throw.

 

[Hanzou]

Boxing has no pulling intention. Without pulling,

- your opponent's arms are free. You can't predict where his arm will be in the next 1/2 second.
- it's difficult to integrate the striking art with the throwing art. If you always think about punch, punch, and punch, when are you going to establish that clinch? If there is no clinch, there will be no throw.

A boxer is thinking about finding an opening and going for a KO. For example, Mike Tyson would throw a punch, and after it was blocked, go for a body shot, which tended to be open. When his opponent went to defend another body shot, Tyson switched immediately into an uppercut.

In addition, if you watch some of that footage, you'll see Tyson kind of sitting in punching range looking for an opening. He can do that because boxers are trained at evading punches even at close range. Tyson was a master of that skill;

When it gets to that level (where you're throwing punches at your opponent and you're just hitting air, meanwhile, he's clocking you with punches to your head and body), a clinch, throw, or whatever doesn't matter. You're heading to knock out land.

Theory is fun, but sometimes it's better just to look at an application in a fighting context.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A boxer is thinking about finding an opening and going for a KO.

Even if we just talk about striking art only, your pull still has it's advantage.

You and your opponent both have right side forward. When you throw a right jab, there are 2 outcomes:

You punch on the

1. right side of your opponent's right arm. Your opponent will use right inside out to block your punch. You can change your right jab into a pull. You then punch out your left hand.
2. left side of your opponent's right arm. Your opponent will use right outside in to block your punch. You can use your left hand to pull. You can throw another right punch again.

Sine you always control one of your opponent's arm, you can concentrate on dealing with his single free arm only.

 

[Hanzou]

Even if we just talk about striking art only, your pull still has it's advantage.

You and your opponent both have right side forward. When you throw a right jab, there are 2 outcomes:

You punch on the

1. right side of your opponent's right arm. Your opponent will use right inside out to block your punch. You can change your right jab into a pull. You then punch out your left hand.
2. left side of your opponent's right arm. Your opponent will use right outside in to block your punch. You can use your left hand to pull. You can throw another right punch again.

Sine you always control one of your opponent's arm, you can concentrate on dealing with his single free arm only.

But isn't it more efficient and less risky to simply counterpunch a block? Why attempt to trap an arm or get entangled with your opponent when you can simply hit them, slip out of range, re-enter and hit them again?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But isn't it more efficient and less risky to simply counterpunch a block? Why attempt to trap an arm or get entangled with your opponent when you can simply hit them, slip out of range, re-enter and hit them again?

Without arm pulling, when your punch, your opponent's body moves back, it's a rear-end collision. Most of your punching force can be cancelled out by his backward movement. A - B < A.

With arm pulling, when you pull your opponent into your punch, your opponent's body moves forward, It's a head-on collision. A + B > A.

It's the same as the MT knee strike. You pull your opponent's head down into your upward knee strike. Without that pulling, your opponent's head can lean back. Pulling can reduce your opponent's mobility. It will make your punch more effective.

 

[Hanzou]

Without arm pulling, when your punch, your opponent's body moves back, it's a rear-end collision. Most of your punching force can be cancelled out by his backward movement. A - B < A.

Again, all of this theory is nice, but we can literally see boxers doing exactly what you're saying can't be done.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Again, all of this theory is nice, but we can literally see boxers doing exactly what you're saying can't be done.

If MMA is the goal, boxing will also need to be evolved too.

A punch should not be just a punch. A punch should be a punch followed by a pull. We can't keep the striking art and wrestling art separately forever. At some point of time, both art will be needed to be integrated together.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you train the jab, cross combo, do you add a pull between jab and cross?

Old saying said, "One should not pull his hand back empty." A pull after the jab can open your opponent up more for your cross.

Your thought?

I do both, it just depends on what I'm targeting and what my opponent is doing.

When I do pull /hook-pull, I'm usually loading up on really big punch and I'm moving an incoming punch out of the way. Big loaded punches are slower, so in order increase the delivery speed, it's usually thrown during one punch and landing on the next. For example, if you punch at me with your left hand then my punch will land before your right hand leaves. it will never beat your left jab, so a pull/hook is used to interfere with your left hand arriving and returning. This makes the left punch slower. Mechanically, the right hand won't start it's punch until the left begins to return. My heavy punch is thrown while my hook is interring with your first punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, all of this theory is nice, but we can literally see boxers doing exactly what you're saying can't be done.

I watched the videos and I don't think it would work with someone who waits for the moment. People like are waiting for the moment when a person is least able to do anything about it. He was, nailing them with their arms extended, almost like following the returning punch in. At that point a person is just screwed, there will be no opportunity to pull.

Tyson also seems to be timing the pattern of the punch. In other words, The more times they swing at him the better his timing will be. I'm not sure about him, but the for me , the more times someone's swings at me the better it is for me to determine the timing of the punch. The timing lets you know when the next punch is coming, after that you just have to move to the right location. He may have understood the likely chance of what punch would be thrown based on the level he was at. Stand up straight expect a jab, bend over a little expect an upper cut, bend over too low, expect punch to come from over top.

 

[Bee Brian]

When you train the jab, cross combo, do you add a pull between jab and cross?

Old saying said, "One should not pull his hand back empty." A pull after the jab can open your opponent up more for your cross.

Your thought?

When you say pull, do you mean as in the act of retracting your hands back to your guard?

Sorry, I know nothing about boxing.

 

[drop bear]

But isn't it more efficient and less risky to simply counterpunch a block? Why attempt to trap an arm or get entangled with your opponent when you can simply hit them, slip out of range, re-enter and hit them again?

There is a concept called a Dutch trap that involves pulling.

Lomenchenko does it a bit.

Or thumb down and pull from the outside.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you say pull, do you mean as in the act of retracting your hands back to your guard?

You punch, your opponent blocks your punch. You grab his blocking arm wrist, pull in toward you, and punch out your other hand.

The advantage of this is, your pulling may interrupt your opponent's other punching arm. If you pull your opponent's right leading arm to his left, since your opponent's back left punch will need to rotate his body to his right, his back left hand can't punch out at that moment. You will be safe for that 1/2 second. Also the counter force of your pulling can help you to move in faster (pull yourself into your opponent).

 

[Buka]

When punching, I prefer to incorporate pushes rather than pulls.

To each his own.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When punching, I prefer to incorporate pushes rather than pulls.

To each his own.

If you

- push, you can borrow your opponent's resistance force, so you can pull him again.
- pull, you can borrow your opponent's resistance force, so you can push him again.

It depends on how far do you plan ahead.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think the pushing vs. pulling depends on what type of fighter you are. As a striker, you want to 'push' with your strikes to get more power in them. As a thrower/grappler, you want to make sure your punch ends in a way you can pull, to move into your domain.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As a striker, you want to 'push' with your strikes to get more power in them.

I assume you are talking about to push with your left hand, and punch with your right hand at the same time.

When you punch, your opponent's body can

1. move back,
2. static,
3. move forward.

IMO, for your striking result,

1 < 2 < 3

MT guys like to pull their opponents into their knee strike. The head-on collision always cause more body injury.

A + B > A