It really is the system.

gpseymour

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I have no list nor would i have made such a broad or damning comment.
Are there bad schools? Yes, definitely. Bad systems? I can’t say that. I don’t know anyone who have broad enough experience to make that judgement.
I'd say it's expected that they exist. I've yet to see any endeavor I can think of that didn't produce some bad examples. I don't know which they are (I've seen a few that seemed pretty bad on a cursory examination), but I'd be really surprised if they didn't exist.
 
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drop bear

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I have no list nor would i have made such a broad or damning comment.
Are there bad schools? Yes, definitely. Bad systems? I can’t say that. I don’t know anyone who have broad enough experience to make that judgement.

I think there is consistently bad and good practice. Which is essentially a system.

I also don't think you need experience to make a judgement because you can look at progression.

And it is pretty simple. Rokus for example spent years doing one system or method. And then changed that system and got a lot better very quickly.

I don't have to understand Aikido to see that. In fact not understanding Aikido probably helps because all I look for is improvement. Rather than what is ascetically correct.

 
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andyjeffries

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While the fist part is true, that doesn't render the argument spurious. There's not equal result (for any given context) across different systems. Two equally gifted people can get different results from different systems, because the system does matter. Give me a fantastic athlete and ask me to train them to kick. Give @andyjeffries someone slightly less talented and ask the same thing. I'm gonna bet his system produces the better kicker, even though my student had an advantage in physical skill. Of course, if you gave me someone who's highly gifted and Andy someone who has trouble standing on one leg, I might manage to come out on top, but that's a huge difference in the starting point.

Thanks for the mention! :)
 

andyjeffries

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Here we see someone doing Aikido and it doesn't look like the smooth demos we see. To me this would be more realistic training for Aikido application. Especially because it's not Style A vs Style A. How effective will it be, will all depend on the training, the person , and the system.

I will say that I feel sorry for the Taekwondo guy. He's really not very experienced in sparring at all.

A lot of his kicks were thrown at the wrong distance (i.e. he was kicking short when standing at a middle distance), doesn't really have enough flexibility to be kicking to the head (he DOES kick to the head but it feels like it's at a stretch rather than being comfortable, and therefore able to deliver with power) and his kicks don't really bend at the knee very much during chambering (making them super visible all throughout the motion rather than be disguised).

I think it's very easy to put two styles together and have one look bad, if the two aren't really evenly matched. I'd be inclined to think the Aikidoka is a black belt and the Taekwondoin is MAX 2 years experience, and comes from a dojang without much sparring practice.
 

dvcochran

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I think there is consistently bad and good practice. Which is essentially a system.

I also don't think you need experience to make a judgement because you can look at progression.

And it is pretty simple. Rokus for example spent years doing one system or method. And then changed that system and got a lot better very quickly.

I don't have to understand Aikido to see that. In fact not understanding Aikido probably helps because all I look for is improvement. Rather than what is ascetically correct.

I see what you are saying in that context. I would say intent has to factor in. If a person is taking a style that is not intuitive for what they are trying to accomplish then yes, you could call it the wrong system. Kind of like taking ballet to become a gymnast. They both have overlapping elements but one does not work well for the other.
But you also have to factor in the accepted fact that no one system is going to work well for MMA so I am not sure how to reconcile that.
Something to consider, even with the popularity of MMA I am not aware of any major contraction in any one style.
 

dvcochran

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I'd say it's expected that they exist. I've yet to see any endeavor I can think of that didn't produce some bad examples. I don't know which they are (I've seen a few that seemed pretty bad on a cursory examination), but I'd be really surprised if they didn't exist.
I hope they are the 'homemade' variants. The made up 10th degree master who makes up his own system. My comment was intended for the major styles but admittedly did not make that clear
 

Yokozuna514

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If a grappler (such as an Aikido guy) has no respect to a striker's punching power, soon or later the striker will be taken down by that grappler.

A striker may play light contact sparring with another striker. A striker should never play light contact sparring with a grappler.
Again, I think it depends on the context, Kung Fu Wang. Perhaps, on the street, when you want to dissuade an attacker from pressing or continuing an attack, 100% power shot may be appropriate (using another tactic could also perform the same task). However, the context here has not really been explained. They are obviously trying to work together in some way as they are tapping out of trouble and the TKD guy doesn't really seem to want to hurt his opponent (the kicks are not really performed with any intent to harm). Light contact would be more appropriate in this type of situation, imho.
 

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I will say that I feel sorry for the Taekwondo guy. He's really not very experienced in sparring at all.

A lot of his kicks were thrown at the wrong distance (i.e. he was kicking short when standing at a middle distance), doesn't really have enough flexibility to be kicking to the head (he DOES kick to the head but it feels like it's at a stretch rather than being comfortable, and therefore able to deliver with power) and his kicks don't really bend at the knee very much during chambering (making them super visible all throughout the motion rather than be disguised).

I think it's very easy to put two styles together and have one look bad, if the two aren't really evenly matched. I'd be inclined to think the Aikidoka is a black belt and the Taekwondoin is MAX 2 years experience, and comes from a dojang without much sparring practice.
Yeah one was more comfortable with sparring than the other. That makes a big difference.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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the TKD guy doesn't really seem to want to hurt his opponent (the kicks are not really performed with any intent to harm). Light contact would be more appropriate in this type of situation, imho.
If you throw a light contact roundhouse kick at your opponent, 99.9% of the time your opponent will catch your kicking leg. the striking game will be over. The grappling game will start.

Again, it's a "stupid idea" for a striker to apply light contact sparring rule against a grappler.

When the Aikido guy took down the TKD guy, the Aikido guy didn't consider whether that take down could hurt the TKD guy or not.

run-down.gif


I just can't believe that nobody agree with me the moment the TKD guy's uppercut landed on the Aikido guy's face, the sparring should stop right there.

It makes no sense that the TKD guy doesn't want to knock the Aikido guy out, but the Aikido guy doesn't mind to take the TKD guy down.

TKD-uppercut.gif
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Yeah one was more comfortable with sparring than the other. That makes a big difference.
If I know my opponent is not going to knock me out/down, I will have a big smile on my face no matter how many rounds that I spar.

The light sparring give you the wrong kind of confidence. The experience to gain from blocking a full power punch is different from to block a light punch.

If your opponent's punch can't make your blocking arm to feel the shocking force, your blocking experience won't be useful. Same as the kick. If your opponent's roundhouse kick can't almost break your blocking arm, your blocking experience won't be useful.
 
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Yokozuna514

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If you throw a light contact roundhouse kick at your opponent, 99.9% of the time your opponent will catch your kicking leg. the striking game will be over. The grappling game will start.

Again, it's a "stupid idea" for a striker to apply light contact sparring rule against a grappler.

When the Aikido guy took down the TKD guy, the Aikido guy didn't consider whether that take down could hurt the TKD guy or not.

run-down.gif


I just can't believe that nobody agree with me the moment the TKD guy's uppercut landed on the Aikido guy's face, the sparring should stop right there.

TKD-uppercut.gif
Perhaps in the context of a real fight your comment may be appropriate but I think the video is far from a real fight. I really don't think the Aikidoka was trying to hurt the TKD guy, TBH. He would release him right after the tap. I do think the Akidoka took advantage of a lesser experienced opponent and they were 'playing' for lack of a better word. Light contact is still the way to go in this situation.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I do think the Akidoka took advantage of a lesser experienced opponent.
The Aikido guy takes advantage on the light sparring rule.

The Aikido guy can spar against Bill Wallace. If Bill Wallace uses controlled light kick, the Aikido guy can still take Bill Wallace down.

All I'm trying to say is if you take away "knock down" from a striker, the striker has nothing left. An 80 years old grappler can take down a 20 years old striker if the control sparring rule is applied.

There is something called "control punch". There is no such thing called "control throw". When you throw someone, you are using full force.

So what's the proper rule that should be followed when a striker spars against a grappler?
 
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JowGaWolf

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Again, I think it depends on the context, Kung Fu Wang. Perhaps, on the street, when you want to dissuade an attacker from pressing or continuing an attack, 100% power shot may be appropriate (using another tactic could also perform the same task). However, the context here has not really been explained. They are obviously trying to work together in some way as they are tapping out of trouble and the TKD guy doesn't really seem to want to hurt his opponent (the kicks are not really performed with any intent to harm). Light contact would be more appropriate in this type of situation, imho.
Good points. The TKD appears to be less willing to work his skill set.
If you throw a light contact roundhouse kick at your opponent, 99.9% of the time your opponent will catch your kicking leg. the striking game will be over. The grappling game will start.

Again, it's a "stupid idea" for a striker to apply light contact sparring rule against a grappler.

When the Aikido guy took down the TKD guy, the Aikido guy didn't consider whether that take down could hurt the TKD guy or not.

run-down.gif


I just can't believe that nobody agree with me the moment the TKD guy's uppercut landed on the Aikido guy's face, the sparring should stop right there.

It makes no sense that the TKD guy doesn't want to knock the Aikido guy out, but the Aikido guy doesn't mind to take the TKD guy down.

TKD-uppercut.gif
I just train differently. Most people can recover from a head punch or a kick to the head as long as it doesn't come in unrestricted.

The Aikido practitioner helped control the take down fall which is why the fall was as slow as it was.
It was a gentle take down.
 

Yokozuna514

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The Aikido guy takes advantage on the light sparring rule.

The Aikido guy can spar against Bill Wallace. If Bill Wallace uses light kick, the Aikido guy can still take Bill Wallace down.

All I'm trying to say is if you take away "knock down" from a striker, the striker has nothing left.
Perhaps he did take advantage of a light sparring rule. I would say that was always his intent.

That Aikido guy could not take Bill Wallace down, no way, no how. Not that I know Bill Wallace but I would think that anyone versed in real contact would not put themselves in that situation. If they do, they wouldn't put gloves on and do air kicks from outside kicking range (if this was supposed to be a contest of some type).

I do appreciate what you are saying about taking away the weapons of a striker vs a grappler if the intent was to find out who would come out on top between two individuals in a real contest. Strikers do not always have to go 100% to gain respect, imho. If I can slip in and give you a shot that YOU know and I know will take you down that should be enough to gain respect. If it isn't, well let's see how that works out between the two because someone is going to go to sleep and I suppose we will have an answer of sorts.
 
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drop bear

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Perhaps he did take advantage of a light sparring rule. I would say that was always his intent.

That Aikido guy could not take Bill Wallace down, no way, no how. Not that I know Bill Wallace but I would think that anyone versed in real contact would not put themselves in that situation. If they do, they wouldn't put gloves on and do air kicks from outside kicking range (if this was supposed to be a contest of some type).

I do appreciate what you are saying about taking away the weapons of a striker vs a grappler if the intent was to find out who would come out on top between two individuals in a real contest. Strikers do not always have to go 100% to gain respect, imho. If I can slip in and give you a shot that YOU know and I know will take you down that should be enough to gain respect. If it isn't, well let's see how that works out between the two because someone is going to go to sleep and I suppose we will have an answer of sorts.

If he can just walk through bills kicks and punches. Then the Aikido guy probably could.

The point is you should acknowledge you kind of can't walk through them.
 

JowGaWolf

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The light sparring give you the wrong kind of confidence.
This why the person has to acknowledge the strikes that would be damaging. If you land a light but solid strike to my head, Then I should mentally register that as a dangerous or damaging strike. I shouldn't think of it as a light strike that can't hurt me. Had the person thrown the punch full force then I would have been injured. I have to distinguish between strike that are more dangerous at 100% and strikes that would of no concern even at 100%
 

JowGaWolf

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If I know my opponent is not going to knock me out/down, I will have a big smile on my face no matter how many rounds that I spar.

The light sparring give you the wrong kind of confidence. The experience to gain from blocking a full power punch is different from to block a light punch.

If your opponent's punch can't make your blocking arm to feel the shocking force, your blocking experience won't be useful. Same as the kick. If your opponent's roundhouse kick can't almost break your blocking arm, your blocking experience won't be useful.
Light punches for me are hard punches for someone else.
 

JowGaWolf

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IMO, the light contact sparring rule between a striker and a grappler should be

When a

- head punch is landed by the striker.
- clinch is established by the grappler.
I read this wrong the first time

I agree with this. Light sparring such as tapping strikes. Should have rules like that. For me this type of sparring wouldn't be classified as light.
 
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Steve

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I think there is consistently bad and good practice. Which is essentially a system.

I also don't think you need experience to make a judgement because you can look at progression.

And it is pretty simple. Rokus for example spent years doing one system or method. And then changed that system and got a lot better very quickly.

I don't have to understand Aikido to see that. In fact not understanding Aikido probably helps because all I look for is improvement. Rather than what is ascetically correct.

System, in this case, is a generic term intended to mean any course of training, from a specific school to an entire martial arts style. And if results are being evaluated objectively, it should be pretty easy to diagnose where the anomalies lie. If someone goes to a grappling school and after a year, two years, five years, 10 years, still stinks at grappling, it might be the person, the school, or the entire system that is the problem.

My point is that, if most people who study in a school stink at whatever the school is teaching, it's not the people that are the problem. It's at least the school. But if that school is pretty typical of all of the schools in a style... the disfunction is systemic.

To be very clear, this is simply a comment about people getting good at whatever they think they're being taught. Where this gets tricky is when styles or schools start to bait and switch you by equating two things that are not actually the same. Self defense and something else. Fighting and something else. You might be learning ninjutsu... but are you learning to fight? You might be learning some version of Aikido, but what skills are you actually acquiring that translate to ability outside of the school?

When I hear the statement, "It really is the system," I think that applies to any style that relies on exceptional natural ability in order to excel. In BJJ, MMA, boxing, wrestling, Judo, etc, the beauty is that normal, average, every day people get really good all the time. People who are strong and not strong. People who are flexible and not flexible. People who have never been called 'athletic' in their lives. I mean, sure you can point to the elite athlete and say, "That guy is exceptional." But to demonstrate that the system is sound, and that the training can consistently and reliably build expertise, you can pick pretty much anyone who trains in the style.
 

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