Islamic School Application Rejected

[Steel Tiger]

The New South Wales town of Camden rejected a proposal to build an Islamic school on its outskirts today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7420907.stm

Now Camden is not a big town with a small Islamic community. The majority of the students who would have attended the school would have come from over an hour's drive away. That suggests to me that the site for the school was not well chosen.

Unfortunately for Camden, the imagery that was coming out of the town after the council made its decision was not very flattering, bunchs of yokels wearing Australian flags and going on about immigration (the Quaranic society that put forward the proposal is Australian, based in Sydney).

Personally I am not in favour of religious schools of any flavour. They cannot but lend themselves to bias. Essential education should come with as little cultural and religious baggage as possible. I know that is not really possible but we should try to give young people the right sort of information that will allow them to make decisions for themselves when the time comes without running into any reality-shattering truths as a result of a particular bent in the teaching they recieved. But in this I think I am firmly in the minority.

 

[terryl965]

Well I guess that is good or bad, just according what you want.

 

[Sukerkin]

Quite right, sir. Encouraging indoctrination with single-faith schools should be a thing of the past.

Sadly, I despair of human-kind ever climbing out of the past and seeing the very scary place that the future is when there is no all-powerful Father to fix all our screw-ups.

 

[Empty Hands]

I understand your point, but it still stands as hypocrisy to reject a parochial Islamic school when Catholic parochial schools (for instance) are the largest private group of schools in Australia. Mohammed and Habib can't but look askance at Mary Faith and Peter merrily traipsing off to be taught by priests and nuns while the local government gives them lectures on the dangers of parochial education.

 

[SageGhost83]

Quite right, sir. Encouraging indoctrination with single-faith schools should be a thing of the past.

Sadly, I despair of human-kind ever climbing out of the past and seeing the very scary place that the future is when there is no all-powerful Father to fix all our screw-ups.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I applaud the refusal to build a religious school in Camden. Is there not enough indoctrination over there already?

 

[Jai]

I have to agree that single faithed private schools do not fit into the current mold of the world. Everyone is bitter at everyone else's faith. We need to work on destroying the walls and building tolerance with one another's view on the world and how they view God Buddha Mother Mary and Muhammad.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I understand your point, but it still stands as hypocrisy to reject a parochial Islamic school when Catholic parochial schools (for instance) are the largest private group of schools in Australia. Mohammed and Habib can't but look askance at Mary Faith and Peter merrily traipsing off to be taught by priests and nuns while the local government gives them lectures on the dangers of parochial education.

This is one of the great hypocricies of modern society. The very suggestion that monks, nuns, and priests can possibly give anyone they teach an untainted view of a subject is ludicrous. These are also the same people that every year are being accused, rightly and wrongly, of molesting children. That's a fine moral compass!!

 

[Grenadier]

To the Mayor's credit, he did say that they were welcome to re-submit the proposal based on a different site in the same town, stating that this is a site issue. It would be interesting to see how the locals would react if another, less conspicuous site were chosen, since it would be a good acid test.

Camden's mayor, Chris Patterson, stressed that the decision to reject the proposals was not made on religious or nationalistic grounds.

"It is a site issue, clearly a site issue," Mr Patterson said after the vote.

On the other hand, it doesn't sound like the locals are very happy about such a proposal, either.

Camden's authorities received some 3,200 submissions from the public about the school and only 100 in favour.

Tensions reached their height last November when two pigs' heads were left on the site of the proposed school. Pork products are forbidden for consumption according to Islamic dietary laws.

Would it really be a wise decision to build a school where the students would be harassed in such a manner, on a regular basis?

If my goal were to give the students an education, then I wouldn't want them to be distracted by the brouhaha surrounding them.

 

[SageGhost83]

I understand your point, but it still stands as hypocrisy to reject a parochial Islamic school when Catholic parochial schools (for instance) are the largest private group of schools in Australia. Mohammed and Habib can't but look askance at Mary Faith and Peter merrily traipsing off to be taught by priests and nuns while the local government gives them lectures on the dangers of parochial education.

I reject the idea of any faith schools, be they Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, or what have you. They just seem to divide more than they unite and they foster a certain type of subconscious intolerance. I have seen fundamentalist Christians who would give any radical muslim a run for his or her money in the intolerance department, so don't think that I am picking on Islam or singling Islam out among the faiths. I agree that there is definitely a double standard and an outright hypocrisy concerning the prominence of Catholic schools and the backlash against Islamic schools. However, my view is that *both* should be done away with because they both are going to foster their own brand of narrow-mindedness and intolerance, not always overtly, but definitely covertly.

 

[tellner]

It's sad, but it's not surprising. The issues opponents usually cite are "increased traffic" or "unsuitable site". But these are almost always after the fact. And they don't tend to come up when Christian religious schools are proposed in predmoninantly Christian areas. You will note that the residents were already unhappy about the idea of a Muslim school under any circumstances.

Similar things happened recently in New York when a very good, very inclusive Islamic school was shut down because it was too Muslim for the Christians and Jews but not nearly Muslim enough for the Saudi-and-black-turban crowd. And of course, there was the Texan group that wanted to build a mosque. Protestors decided to hold pig races to discourage them.

Islam is unfamiliar. What is unfamiliar is frightening. What is frightening is hated. Add the last nearly seven years of unremitting anti-Muslim propaganda from the American media and government and its spread. The only surprising part is that it doesn't happen more often.

 

[Big Don]

It's sad, but it's not surprising. The issues opponents usually cite are "increased traffic" or "unsuitable site". But these are almost always after the fact. And they don't tend to come up when Christian religious schools are proposed in predmoninantly Christian areas. You will note that the residents were already unhappy about the idea of a Muslim school under any circumstances.

Similar things happened recently in New York when a very good, very inclusive Islamic school was shut down because it was too Muslim for the Christians and Jews but not nearly Muslim enough for the Saudi-and-black-turban crowd. And of course, there was the Texan group that wanted to build a mosque. Protestors decided to hold pig races to discourage them.

Islam is unfamiliar. What is unfamiliar is frightening. What is frightening is hated. Add the last nearly seven years of unremitting anti-Muslim propaganda from the American media and government and its spread. The only surprising part is that it doesn't happen more often.

Is EVERYTHING the fault of Christians and Americans in your world view?

 

[tellner]

Not at all. But everything that Christians and Americans do is the fault of Christians and Americans. When Saudis beat women for driving it's the fault of Saudis. When the English drink like frickin' fish it's England's problem.

When Christians try to stop Muslims from legally building a mosque or a school, it's a problem with the Christians. And when Americans screw up it's our fault and nobody else's. Fear and stupidity are human traits. No nation has a monopoly on them. In this case a predominantly Christian nation is discrimminating on the basis of religion against a Muslim group.

Outside the meeting, some residents expressed relief there would not be an influx of Muslims in the area, including a woman wearing an akubra hat decorated with Australian flags.
"We just don't want Muslim people in Camden," she said.
"We don't want them not only here, we don't want them in Australia. They're an oppressive society, they're a dictatorship."
Another resident said: "It's not for racist [reasons], just all the crime and stuff that other foreign people bring into the town."

 

[Sukerkin]

I can see the point you're trying to make, Todd and it's hard to gainsay your last statement above.

I do think that it is the communities right to make the choice they did tho'. I also happen to feel it to be the right choice, having seen the ghettoised mess that has become of my local city because of overly 'sensitive' social choices.

The result of such well-intentioned policies that saw the established residents wishes pushed aside? The BNP (the most recent indigenous incarnation of Hitler's vision) now actually have councellors in local Boroughs and Wards.

We've touched on this before - a social segment that will not integrate is divisive. It no longer seems a question of certain social or religious groups being excluded as much as those groups holding themselves apart.

In Britain, it's a reversal of the trend of the sixties and early seventies where the West Indian and Indian communities sought to become a useful part of society and only asked that blatant discrimination be outlawed.

Some of their children, as English as me, do not want to be part of the country that sired them but neither do they wish to leave. So instead they fester disgruntlement (some legitimate, some not) until you get certain of them blowing themselves up on the London Underground.

Yes, I know that's a big stretch from the OP but these extreme developments are all bound up in the attitudes exhibited by both sides of this story.

 

[Empty Hands]

It no longer seems a question of certain social or religious groups being excluded as much as those groups holding themselves apart.

Well, the quotes Tellner displayed makes it clear that for at least some residents, integration is not an option. The only option is Muslims - NIMBY. It makes you wonder how much of this supposed recalcitrance to integrate is due to the stubborn persistence of immigrants to believe the hype that they have the freedom to live how they choose, and how much is due to their neighbors not allowing them to integrate.

 

[Sukerkin]

NIMBY?

Oh, I get it, I think - "Not In My Back-Yard"? Sorry, long working day and the old grey matter isn't quite whirling as quickly a it should.

 

[Empty Hands]

NIMBY?

Oh, I get it, I think - "Not In My Back-Yard"? Sorry, long working day and the old grey matter isn't quite whirling as quickly a it should.

Yup. Get some sleep.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I have to agree that single faithed private schools do not fit into the current mold of the world. Everyone is bitter at everyone else's faith. We need to work on destroying the walls and building tolerance with one another's view on the world and how they view God Buddha Mother Mary and Muhammad.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I applaud the refusal to build a religious school in Camden. Is there not enough indoctrination over there already?

Quite right, sir. Encouraging indoctrination with single-faith schools should be a thing of the past.

Sadly, I despair of human-kind ever climbing out of the past and seeing the very scary place that the future is when there is no all-powerful Father to fix all our screw-ups.

What I find interesting is that social enginering, often referred to as indoctrination, is not acceptable. Unless it is of the type that the speaker prefers, then it is all right.

Do not get me wrong, I believe in it to a certain extent. But lets at least admit that we all believe in it, and not bash it for its own sake.

 

[Sukerkin]

An interesting point, Kenpo. Indoctrination comes in many forms, a great many of them harmful. That harm springs from the degree of extremism and intolerance that is inherent within them.

Not all such 11-on-a-10-scale indoctrination 'camps' are religion based, that is certainly the truth. It is my experiential belief, however, that most of them are, some neatly shrouded in a cloak of politics to keep it cleaner for the masses.

Sadly, the one example that springs to everyones mind when they think of non-religious extremism is a certain Joseph Stalin - that's a whopping big carbuncle to try and see around when your philosophical stance, as I freely admit mine is, is that religion is the root of more evil than anything else in the world.

That's getting away from the OP tho', interesting a debate as it could be.

 

[Tez3]

The places in Jewish schools in the UK are highly sought by parents of all and no religions as the emphasis is on education and good behaviour. The Jewish religion is the only one that is taught but for the Muslim children that attend they have their own prayer room etc. Places are open to all and no denominations, parents like the schools because they teach to a higher standard than sadly do the local education authority schools. None of them are fee paying schools either. The government funds the secular curriculum.
Jewish parents (as with non Jewish ones) want a good education and qualifications for their children, they know they and their community can provide the religious education for them so what they want from schools is good secular teaching, having their own schools gives them the control they need to ensure this. It also helps if they can provide the correct food at lunchtime etc.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/e...-where-half-the-pupils-are-muslim-434481.html