Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Steve]

That, or the training approach is designed for a very long learning curve (or maybe assumes a foundation not common among current students, which is sort of the same thing).

There's a reason it's called a learning curve and not a learning switch. You don't suck at it until one day it's like a lightning bolt of proficiency.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's a reason it's called a learning curve and not a learning switch. You don't suck at it until one day it's like a lightning bolt of proficiency.

Agreed.

 

[Hanzou]

I think the fault lies mostly with instructors who don't understand wing chun, who at one time were students who didn't get it who were probably taught by instructors who didn't know what they were doing.........

Okay, but if you have that many instructors running around not knowing what they're doing, at what point do you start blaming the methodology behind what they're being taught?

 

[Hanzou]

That, or the training approach is designed for a very long learning curve (or maybe assumes a foundation not common among current students, which is sort of the same thing).

My martial art has a long learning curve, and we don't have issues like this.

 

[yak sao]

Okay, but if you have that many instructors running around not knowing what they're doing, at what point do you start blaming the methodology behind what they're being taught?

But I think that's the problem...too many WC guys are poorly trained and they end up following a faulty paradigm and they end up doing a caricature of what they think WC is supposed to look like.

 

[yak sao]

My martial art has a long learning curve, and we don't have issues like this.

I fell into this trap as a teacher a while back.
I found myself relying heavily on solo and 2 man drills trying to instill proper movement/concepts/ technique into my students.
While those things are important, I wish I had just had them glove up and figure it out as they went along.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My martial art has a long learning curve, and we don't have issues like this.

I'm not aware of an art that doesn't have a long learning curve if you look at what it takes to do them at a high level. I'm speaking to training approaches that are designed around the idea of a long slope, rather than necessarily going for the fastest learning path. It seems to me some training approaches are designed this way, that the slower learning is a purposeful approach and intended to encourage specific traits.

In case I'm not clear what I mean there, look at BJJ as an example counter to what I'm describing. It takes a long time to get to a high level of competency (compared to the folks who are really good at it). But the early training seems focused on delivering individual competency as quickly as possible on the basics.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not aware of an art that doesn't have a long learning curve if you look at what it takes to do them at a high level. I'm speaking to training approaches that are designed around the idea of a long slope, rather than necessarily going for the fastest learning path. It seems to me some training approaches are designed this way, that the slower learning is a purposeful approach and intended to encourage specific traits.

In case I'm not clear what I mean there, look at BJJ as an example counter to what I'm describing. It takes a long time to get to a high level of competency (compared to the folks who are really good at it). But the early training seems focused on delivering individual competency as quickly as possible on the basics.

So wing chun doesn't focus on the competency of basics?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So wing chun doesn't focus on the competency of basics?

All MA systems require ability. The technique is only the 50%. The ability is the other 50%.

What are the

- WC ability training?
- BJJ ability training?

 

[Poppity]

So wing chun doesn't focus on the competency of basics?

I think the issue is the opposite. In some cases competency of the basics became too all consuming, until the wider view of using wing chun as a martial skill came secondary to the study of the minutiae. A bit like looking at a boxer and deciding their balance, reach and swing is all wrong so taking them out of bouts to solely practice their form.

I feel chi sau is a good example if this. At its heart it's just a transition of being proactive to reactive and vice versa, but in some cases the obsession of specialising in this area meant that the actual proactive attacks and reactive defensives weren't drilled, practiced and applied in a live format, like changing gears real smooth but being unable to drive.

a bit more sparring and it should all translate quick though

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I feel chi sau is a good example if this.

But WC sticky hand belong to the technique training. It's not ability training.

Here are some examples of ability training.

1. Develop powerful striking.

2. Develop strong grabbing.

 

[Poppity]

But WC sticky hand belong to the technique training. It's not ability training.

Here are some examples of ability training.

1. Develop powerful striking.

2. Develop strong grabbing.

I don't know... For me chi sau isn't really a technique it's for transitioning between techniques. I kinda see those examples you posted as conditioning or for enhancing ability not an ability in themselves.

Just my view in it though and I'm a nobody on the internet.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

for enhancing ability not an ability in themselves.

Technique enhancement should be the right words.

 

[drop bear]

All MA systems require ability. The technique is only the 50%. The ability is the other 50%.

What are the

- WC ability training?
- BJJ ability training?

Yet some methods consistently out perform others.

Swimming requires ability. But if you learn to swim you will get better at it than if you learn to fly airplanes.

 

[drop bear]

I think the issue is the opposite. In some cases competency of the basics became too all consuming, until the wider view of using wing chun as a martial skill came secondary to the study of the minutiae. A bit like looking at a boxer and deciding their balance, reach and swing is all wrong so taking them out of bouts to solely practice their form.

I feel chi sau is a good example if this. At its heart it's just a transition of being proactive to reactive and vice versa, but in some cases the obsession of specialising in this area meant that the actual proactive attacks and reactive defensives weren't drilled, practiced and applied in a live format, like changing gears real smooth but being unable to drive.

a bit more sparring and it should all translate quick though

Yeah. And this is the argument. If you engage in training that is more efficient at developing ability you will have more ability more quickly. Sparring focuses on elements that translate to fighting better than chi sau. And that isn't all or nothing it is a percentage.

BJJ for example is actually incredibly slow to show results because where they achieve results is in resisted training.

I keep making this joke in training that here I am busting a lung to fight of one guy when if I did Krav Maga I would be dropping the whole room by now.

I mean this guy is handling two dudes with bats.

And I struggle with one dude wearing pyjamas.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So wing chun doesn't focus on the competency of basics?

I don’t know if it does. I was presenting a possibility. I think some traditional approaches see the “basics of the style” as not the same as “basics of fighting”. I certainly see that to some extent in the traditional approach of my own primary art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yet some methods consistently out perform others.

Swimming requires ability. But if you learn to swim you will get better at it than if you learn to fly airplanes.

I think swimming is an apt analogy. How you swim (stroke used) definitely affects outcome in a race. At the same time, a great swimmer doing the breast stroke will probably outpace an average swimmer using freestyle.

 

[drop bear]

I think swimming is an apt analogy. How you swim (stroke used) definitely affects outcome in a race. At the same time, a great swimmer doing the breast stroke will probably outpace an average swimmer using freestyle.

It would make sense to me if I was not a naturally gifted swimmer to use the most efficient method of swimming.

Rather than shackle my lack of athleticism by combining it with an inefficient stroke.

If our swimmer competed against himself using both strokes then the more efficient method would win.

 

[drop bear]

I don’t know if it does. I was presenting a possibility. I think some traditional approaches see the “basics of the style” as not the same as “basics of fighting”. I certainly see that to some extent in the traditional approach of my own primary art.

Yeah if you looked at sword cutting for example. Where the aim isn't really to get that straw bale thingy in half. Which most people could do with a $10 machete with about half an hours training.

It is more to do with achieving a bunch of other requirements.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah if you looked at sword cutting for example. Where the aim isn't really to get that straw bale thingy in half. Which most people could do with a $10 machete with about half an hours training.

It is more to do with achieving a bunch of other requirements.

Agreed. And sometimes that other stuff is why folks choose one thing over another. It’s what appeals to some. I love the challenge of working on aiki. I don’t think it is the most efficient method to learn fighting, but it has kept my interest in training for decades.