Is this Tai Chi or Jow Ga?

[JowGaWolf]

I was going over some of my old sparring videos and I took a closer look at this video and notice something that I haven't thought of before. In the past I said that this is Jow Ga but now I'm not so sure. It's one of those grey areas. The foot hook that I went for was Jow Ga. It was supposed to create a horizontal pull but after looking at the video. This foot gook pull generates a vertical pull. Hence the knee being up and as you can see in the picture my sparring partners leg is on top of my foot.

So is this Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg from Tai Chi? Fyi. I to train a Tai Chi Form but not application. Is this Jow Ga?

If you say that it's Tai Chi then this is proof that application can be learned from Form? Thoughts?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The Taiji golden rooster is a knee strike with toes pointing downward instead.

In Chinese wrestling, it looks like a "stick kick". You start from a shin bit by putting your instep behind your opponent's ankle and bite your shin bone on his low leg.

Besides you can apply sweep there. If you pull

- horizontally, it's scoop.
- vertically, it's sticky kick.
- 45 degree upward, it's scoop kick.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The Taiji golden rooster is a knee strike with toes pointing downward instead.

Oh I've always practice this part of the form with my toes up.

I've see the knee strike application of it. I don't like it. It looks awkward. Maybe there's a way to do the knee strike differently?

I would never strike anyone this way. The mechanics of it feels weak and unbalanced.

I like this one better but not sure if it's realistic against someone who actually attack with knees. Maybe against a knee to the mid section?

Example of flying knee

I'm not sure about this one either. I don't understand the language but examples have the same problem. In this application the opponent is moving away. Because that the knee or the kick will be weak, especially if the person is already flying backwards from the hand technique.

Jow Ga uses a similar stance, but the application isn't this. The application is more towards kicking or scooping the leg up to grab it, similar to what you showed in some of your videos.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not satisfied with this because there are other less complicated things that could be done in similar situations.

Do any of the applications match the kneeing one that you were talking about?

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are multiple applications and uses for golden rooster, that do not always look like the entire posture, depending on the force coming at you, so a similarity is very possible to see.

And before anyone asks, no I do not have videos nor do I plan on posting any

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In this application the opponent is moving away. Because that the knee or the kick will be weak,

The knee strike is best to be used in a head on collision. You use both hands to pull your opponent's head down and strike your knee on his chest at the same time.

But I believe the head on collision (force against force) is against the Taiji principle.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And before anyone asks, no I do not have videos nor do I plan on posting any

It doesn't have to be your video. It could be a video of someone else.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The knee strike is best to be used in a head on collision. You use both hands to pull your opponent's head down and strike your knee on his chest at the same time.

But I believe the head on collision (force against force) is against the Taiji principle.

I thought about that as well. But that would require the hands to move first to secure the head and then quickly followed by the knee. But then like you stated (force versus force) takes it out of the realm of a Taiji Principle. While it may be an answer, it may not be a Taiji one.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I thought about that as well. But that would require the hands to move first to secure the head and then quickly followed by the knee. But then like you stated (force versus force) takes it out of the realm of a Taiji Principle. While it may be an answer, it may not be a Taiji one.

Application does not have to look exactly like the posture and it can still be from that posture

 

[Elbowgrease]

I was going over some of my old sparring videos and I took a closer look at this video and notice something that I haven't thought of before. In the past I said that this is Jow Ga but now I'm not so sure. It's one of those grey areas. The foot hook that I went for was Jow Ga. It was supposed to create a horizontal pull but after looking at the video. This foot gook pull generates a vertical pull. Hence the knee being up and as you can see in the picture my sparring partners leg is on top of my foot.

So is this Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg from Tai Chi? Fyi. I to train a Tai Chi Form but not application. Is this Jow Ga?

If you say that it's Tai Chi then this is proof that application can be learned from Form? Thoughts?

View attachment 26962

I've had some experiences in which, while doing something repetitive at work, I realized I was using variations of postures from Tai Chi Chuan. Once using grasp the bird's tail to throw logs down a mountain, once waving the hands like clouds while washing dishes in a three hole sink. I'm sure there have been others as well, but those are the two I can think of right now. (And immediately after realizing what I was doing in each case I ended up wrecking my whole flow by over-analyzing my movements, of course).
So, I think that applications can be learned from the form, and a person may be surprised by some of the applications they find for Tai Chi.
I was also taught that training in Tai Chi Chuan and/or gongfu (or anything, potentially) is about learning how to use your body correctly, not about learning "if the other person does this, then I do this".

I can't say I've found myself using golden cock stands on one leg before, and I wasn't ever told any specific applications for it.

Regardless of what you're doing in that picture is called or what style it may have come from, it looks like it worked. I'd call it success.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I was also taught that training in Tai Chi Chuan and/or gongfu (or anything, potentially) is about learning how to use your body correctly, not about learning "if the other person does this, then I do this".

Using body correctly should not violate the correct application.

Application is the guideline of the Taiji form. A traffic cop can direct traffic all his life, he will never become a MA person.

If you don't care about application, a move like this may appear in your Taiji form. His both hands are facing downward when he turns. What was he doing?

The application of the "double pulling" is to pull your opponent's arm with one hand on his elbow, and another hand on his wrist. The wrist control hand face downward, but the elbow control hand has to face upward.

In the following clip, his both hands face downward. Many Taiji people had made this mistake if they don't understand the correct Taiji application.

When you do "step back repulse monkey", should you look forward (at 4.25),

or should you look backward at your striking hand (at 0.55)?

Since your opponent is standing in front of you, you should not take your eyes away from your opponent. You should look forward at your opponent. If you don't care about application, you may look at your striking hand and away from your opponent.

Without application as the guideline, the form can be performed without any logical meaning.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wu family has a repulse monkey has reverse hand and leg. same leg is back as same hand forward (ex. right hand forward, right leg back). This is a take down, that could come from golden rooster if you like

there is a video out there someplace of Eddie Wu doing this application, which also shows why learning a break-fall is part of the Wu family curriculum

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wu family has a repulse monkey has reverse hand and leg. same leg is back as same hand forward (ex. right hand forward, right leg back). This is a take down, that could come from golden rooster if you like

there is a video out there someplace of Eddie Wu doing this application, which also shows why learning a break-fall is part of the Wu family curriculum

This movement is similar to what Jow Ga has in it's Flower Fist form. This makes sense to me as the motions create have the effect of forcing the opponent to try and fight the pushing potion at the top and the pulling motion at the bottom. Similar to the photo I posted. You can see it better in this picture

Lead hand pushes the top while the foot pulls the bottom. This push and pull concept is in a lot of Kung Fu systems. I can't remember anything off the top of my head that I've seen that used the same thing in the Japanese martial arts.. I'm sure there is, as it's a sound concept and it makes the take down easier. than just trying to push from the top or pull from the bottom.

My memory is a little foggy but I think I had a teacher do the same to me with a one arm bear hug. He pulled my lower spine towards him and pushed my upper torso away from him. There was no way I could resist it as it broke my stance structure. and it felt really uncomfortable as if my back would break. The spine doesn't like being pushed into a "S shape."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Similar to the photo I posted. You can see it better in this picture

View attachment 26970

You are using your right leg to attack the "inside" of your opponent's right leg - the 2nd side (scoop kick).

The following video is using he right leg to attack the "outside" of his opponent's right leg - the 1st side (slant cut).

The front cut works better if your body move forward with momentum.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You are using your right leg to attack the "inside" of your opponent's right leg - the 2nd side (scoop kick).

Take another look. Right leg is attacking the outside of my opponent's right leg. The move wasn't a kick. It was supposed to be hook for his left leg but he escaped that one and put his right leg in danger.

This is how the mess began. I'm aiming for where I thought his lead foot would land, but he skipped in. Here is where the right foot lands where the the left foot is leaving. My timing was bad for the lead foot but perfect for the right foot. The frame after this his him is him lifting his leg.