Is there really a solution?

hmm. Well in my experience living in Canada my whole life, there are not much duels going around:rolleyes:

im not exaclty sure about the self defence laws where im at, but i can tell you that there is a greater chance for legal reprocusions if you start knife fighting as your base form of defending yourself.

just think of how the courts will react when a "master" knife fighter slices and dices some punk kid in a bar fight?

second not many people who try to stab you wait for you to pull your weapon! THAT DOESN"T MAKE ANY SENCE. "no thats fine, ill risk death to let you get ready, its not like im trying to stab you or anything"

second, to "win" when your attacked with a knife and your empty handed all you has to do is not get stabed, you don't have to dissarm the knife, you don't have to kick the attackers ***, all you have to do is live till the next day. You dont need any training to do that JUST RUN! If you cant run do whatever you can. There is no empty hand vs knife technique that works in real life moromoro? well running is one!! Then if you cant run, there are plenty of options to at least live to charge the guy for attemped murder.

If you going to get in knife vs knife duels you mite as well bring a gun cuz you'll win faster.

look at the whole picture guys, empty hand vs knife techniques are to give you options.

Yes my teacher has practiced empty hand vs knife, with the attacker using a real knife and improvised attacks. (im not anywhere near that level lol) if he can defend from improvised attacks against a real knife it works, "oh, well im sure if a true master faced him he would die" ya and if a better fighter faced him he would die to! so what! Thats not any type of point to argue against empty hand techniques.

If the attacker is more skilled then the defender the defender will lose 90% of the time, that just logic. A "true" knife fighter can lose to empty hand techniques it all DEPENDS.

BUT in the streets surviving is winning i know that cliche but its true.

Kingston 1 moromoro 0 :D
 
kningston my jamaican friend your just reapeating yourself....

there is an american knife system called AMOK the master of this art also doesnt really believe in empty handed knife defense.......

all real eskrimadore from the PI never believed in disarming and empty handed techniques against a knife although they all say use something else such as monet powders or spit in the attackers eyes now if you can distract him you have a chance....

WHAT I DONT LIKE IS WHEN PEOPLE SHOW DRILLS AND WHERE A BELT AND SAY YES THIS IS HOW YOU DEFEND AGAINST A KNIFE ATTACK THIS IS ********..... ESPECIALLY SINCE MOST OF THEM HAVE NO EXPERIENCE AGAINST A REAL BLADE...

ALSO YOU SAID

second, to "win" when your attacked with a knife and your empty handed all you has to do is not get stabed,

VERY VERY VERY WRONG, ( i can see your lack of experience on the subject here) stabs are far easier to defend against slashes and cuts are mush harder if they try sungkite on ya well thats another story,

you see you have to really worry about cuts, the major points to be concerned about are your jugular, your wrist and your thighs a cut in these places and your really really dead, (rapid blood loss) stabs are also very dangerous particularly when stab to the heart, bladder, kidneys, liver or if it penetrates the lung,

also if you train hard enough and you can slash at a much faster rate then you can stab particularly if the defender is holding his distance it is better to close it by cutting ( mixture of the two is the best) also multiple slashes are far harder to defend against..



"im not exaclty sure about the self defence laws where im at, but i can tell you that there is a greater chance for legal reprocusions if you start knife fighting as your base form of defending yourself."


i dont know about the US but here in australia knives are a category R weapon in the same class as a gun, brandish one in self defense and you got alot of explaining to do.....

"hmm. Well in my experience living in Canada my whole life, there are not much duels going around"

well i think you misunderstood me in the PI today they are not dduels they are angry fueds and confrontations...

last but not least what style do you practice,,


now lets change the score

moromoro 10 kingston -1
thats better
 
Originally posted by moromoro
...
better yet knife boy take your knife and ill grab my pinuti now we are talking, or how about trying to take a kenjutsu master with a knife,,,,,?????

terry

How many people walk around with pinuti and katana in their back pockets?

How many with a knife?

Cthulhu
 
Originally posted by moromoro
palusut

I wouldn't go that far. I know too many people who have effectively defended themselves against a knife wielding attacker.


Hi moromoro,

I didn't post in this discussion, pesilat did.

Thanks,

Palusut
 
Originally posted by moromoro
pesilat, my friend there is a big difference between sparring and dueling, most "duels" in the P.I today occured from fueds or after a few rounds of tuba or san miguel also gambling, because the houses are so close together people run in and grab there bladed weapons (if they own guns they grab these first).... i have been unlucky enough to witness this on 3 occasions......

Nope. In my opinion, this is sparring, albeit lethal in nature. Both parties know they're about to get in a fight, they know the weapons involved and how many opponents there are. And they probably have some idea of the skill/abilities of the person they're fighting.

In my opinion, a "fight" is a situation where there is no pre-arrangement (and the respective parties running to their homes to get weapons constitutes, in my mind, a pre-arrangement).

Now, a duel may become an ambush if one party gets some buddies together. Or it may become a brawl if both parties get some buddies.

But, by and large, this is semantics. They are all "fights."

But here in America, "duels" as you describe them aren't likely to happen (at least not with me and my friends involved). If I've had words with a guy and he heads for his house to get a weapon. I'm not going to run to my house to get a weapon. I'm going to attack him then and there and insure that he doesn't ever make it to his house.

Mike
 
Originally posted by moromoro
kningston my jamaican friend your just reapeating yourself....

there is an american knife system called AMOK the master of this art also doesnt really believe in empty handed knife defense.......

all real eskrimadore from the PI never believed in disarming and empty handed techniques against a knife although they all say use something else such as monet powders or spit in the attackers eyes now if you can distract him you have a chance....

WHAT I DONT LIKE IS WHEN PEOPLE SHOW DRILLS AND WHERE A BELT AND SAY YES THIS IS HOW YOU DEFEND AGAINST A KNIFE ATTACK THIS IS ********..... ESPECIALLY SINCE MOST OF THEM HAVE NO EXPERIENCE AGAINST A REAL BLADE...

ALSO YOU SAID

second, to "win" when your attacked with a knife and your empty handed all you has to do is not get stabed,

VERY VERY VERY WRONG, ( i can see your lack of experience on the subject here) stabs are far easier to defend against slashes and cuts are mush harder if they try sungkite on ya well thats another story,

you see you have to really worry about cuts, the major points to be concerned about are your jugular, your wrist and your thighs a cut in these places and your really really dead, (rapid blood loss) stabs are also very dangerous particularly when stab to the heart, bladder, kidneys, liver or if it penetrates the lung,

also if you train hard enough and you can slash at a much faster rate then you can stab particularly if the defender is holding his distance it is better to close it by cutting ( mixture of the two is the best) also multiple slashes are far harder to defend against..



"im not exaclty sure about the self defence laws where im at, but i can tell you that there is a greater chance for legal reprocusions if you start knife fighting as your base form of defending yourself."


i dont know about the US but here in australia knives are a category R weapon in the same class as a gun, brandish one in self defense and you got alot of explaining to do.....

"hmm. Well in my experience living in Canada my whole life, there are not much duels going around"

well i think you misunderstood me in the PI today they are not dduels they are angry fueds and confrontations...

last but not least what style do you practice,,


now lets change the score

moromoro 10 kingston -1
thats better

how did i get a -1? anyway, when i said stabed i ment cut, stab cut its all the same lol

i would consider that i came away a "winner" if i got attacked by a knife and got away alive (wether i ran or not it doesn't matter)

so that whole thing about slashing was kind of misdirected.
the score is now Kingston 11 moromoro -1

BOO YAA!

if you have time to make any type of relfex action when a knife is coming at you (stab slash whatever) i think it would be possible to train to make a "possitive" reaction therefore not dying.

yes stabing is easier to defend against then slashing, you can try it at home its quite obvious.

Then there is the fact that 99% of the population are not phillipino MA practitioners.

Its a pretty safe bet that the guy with the knife has little to no training.....does that mean you should start fighting? No. But it does mean that if the guy try's to suprise you with it, most likely you should be able to defend at the the first strike allowing you more options.

every now and then even very skilled people will get stabed err cut in practice. BUT a few times in, lets say kali practice, two guys sparring knife vs knife will get tagged......there is no reason why empty hand stuff cant work in real life. Why is this? Because in real life not everyone is an expert knife fighter! not even 75% of the population train seriously in knife fighting....AND HOW MANY OF THOSE WILL BE THE AGRESSOR!! it would be a one in a million chance you would be attacked by a serious martial artest who happens to be good with knives.

first day of class we did knife work, let me tell you i tried to stab/slash/cut the guy, didn't work, accualy i ended up stabing myself a couple times! untrained knife guys, though still very dangerous, cant handle skilled people.

personaly i dont see the sence in trained specificaly on knife vs knife. Its pointless(for self defence), mite as well learn techniques for that time you get hit by lightning and dont know what to do.

end score Kingston 20 moromoro 0!!:D

p.s. im not jamaican
 
oh ya i almost forgot. In my system we never say "this is the way you defend against this attack"

I study Systema.
 
man you can have 100 in your score i dont give a ******... good for you..

the bottom line is it there really a solution against a knife attack with empty hand knife defense

1. that depends on the skill of the opponent..

2.When it comes to weapon defense your chances are always minimal.. no matter who (remember this aint the movies, and this aint the DOJO)

3. Against someone who has mastered knife especially payong system NO CHANCE EVEN IF YOUR UNBELIEVABLE WITH EMPTY HANDS....

4. IF YOU SAY THAT EMPTY HANDS WILL WORK ON ANYBODY WITH A KNIFE, I THINK THIS IS WRONG AND I WOULD HATE TO BE ABLE TO PROVE IT...........As far as iam concerned there are people teaching empty hands knife defenses saying that this will work, they show a technique and the students follow...UNDERSTAND THE LIMITATIONS OF EMPTY HANDS AGAINST KNIFE...

also i would prefer to be attacked by a knife than other bladed weapons,,
knigston i bet you have a sylabus for gun defenses as well iam i right?????


(* Edited for avoiding Profanity Filter.
Rich Parsons
MT Moderator
*)
 
Mod. Warning

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Thank you,

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-
 
"IF YOU SAY EMPTY HANDS WILL WORK ON ANYBODY WITH A KNIFE......"

i dont remember ever saying that empty hands would work on anyone with a knife....i dont think many people have ever said that (at least no one iv talked to)

yes some people show a technique then the students follow. But not EVERYONE does that. Systema doesn't.

"that depends on the skill of the oponent"

everything depends on the skill of the oponent......weapon vs weapon, empty hand vs weapon, empty hand vs empty hand, it all depends on the skill of the oponent......common sence.

"when it comes to weapon defence your chances are always minimal.. no matter who"

of course the threat of injury/death as well as difficulty raises with the effectiveness of the weapon being used. a knife is harder to defend against then empty hands a gun is harder to defend against then a knife and so on.

Does that mean next time i get in a situation where running is not possible your saying there is no way the knife defence technique i learned while being attacked with improvised strikes, using improvised counters, (eventualy training against a live blade) and at full speed, against a relatively skilled person. (someone with training).

There is no way that those techniques would work? On ANYONE?

note: the amount of people accualy trained to be able to kill a man with a knife within seconds is very very low. NOT TO MENTION the fact that why would someone with such training be in a possition to kill you before flashing the knife?

Is that not common sence? Isn't the biggest part of self defence common sence? :D

when is someone "who has mastered knife especially payong system" going to try and rob me of my wallet, or get pissed off at me so much he wants to murder me.

of course empty hand vs knife techniques have less of a chance working against someone with knife training, but it does at least have a satisfactory chance of working against a relativly untrained person.

iv heard of people getting stabed in the neck and living, getting stabed 20+ times and living, obviously knives are more dangerous then empty hands, but exactly HOW dangerous they are depends on the weilder of the knife. In most cases it would not be a payong master.

yes Systema does have strategies/techniques for gun defence, but it is not part of the regular class curriculem. (at least at the place i train) I personaly dont have much of an opinion on gun defence though.

basicaly the point is yes there are empty hand vs knife techniques out there that work and they can save your life, and just like everything else, it is not going to be 100% succesfull in every situation.
Again like all martial arts there are going to be people who train lasy, or train completly wrong.

moromoro you seem to have an educated opinion, but just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they know absolutly nothing about what they are talking about. In terms of self defence there are difinatly things you can do to either beat the attacker, or lessen the danger, or escape.

I may not be the most knowledgable peson to talk about this subject, but i feel that if you always try to look at something in a logical manner, in a relative manner, you can get a pretty good idea of how things are.

If the movement is real, then the technique is real. if the movement is fake the technique is fake and therefore wont work.
If you use improvised attacks with an honest partner (with some tips) you will eventualy become quite good at empty hand knife defence. This doesn't mean that you are now immune to being cut. It just means you have a couple more options.
 
Originally posted by moromoro
all real eskrimadore from the PI never believed in disarming and empty handed techniques against a knife although they all say use something else such as monet powders or spit in the attackers eyes now if you can distract him you have a chance....


I'm not so sure about this. I had the privilage to study (for a few days) with Grand Tuhon Jerson "Nene" Tortal in the PI a few years ago. At the time, his system was called "Dekita Tersia - Trankadas - Echekite." I'm pretty sure he's revised the name by now. Either way, it's pretty knife oriented.

He had me doing empty hand defense to knife attacks (real blade!). Some of these even included disarms. Some drills even included being attacked by a knife, when you're sitting in a chair, unsuspectingly.

So, I don't think such blanket statements saying "all real eskrimadores" can be too accurate.


Granted, you'll almost definately get cut, but hopefully, not in the vitals. "Playing" with an untrained friend, with him with a knife, trying to cut me, I found I was able to defend against a majority of his attacks - that meant I wasn't stabbed in the gut, heart, or face. Sure I may have had a few cuts on my outer forearm (if it wasn't a rubber knife), but I'd most likely live. I was even able to gain control of his arm, and force a disarm about 1 out of 5 times. Of course, I realize, he's untrained. Hopefully the street thug won't have too much more training.
 
In reply to the futility of knife on knife training...

I'm not so sure on that. I know a number of people who carry little locking folders. So it is possible.

Funny thing, I posted on a subject of knife on knife sparring. I mentioned I (with my limited training), find I am less likely to gain control of my opponent's weapon hand when I'm also armed. Take a look at that thread if you have a comment or opion, please: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7367
 
i agree with kingstons statements, it will always come down to your training and the skill of the opponent...
(never give up attitude when your life in danger)


Mormegil

yes, the filipino arts can be funny, (i dont have any experience with the negros systems)
but some masters will add to their curriculum techinques and drills that they themsleves will never use when it comes down to a real fight, (grand master caballero of the decampo system was said to do this) from my experience with GM navarro he also does this i was amazed at how he will train his other students, ( i train with him 5times a week 1 on 1) he would show them drills and techniques that i never saw him use on sparring and when practicing with me...
i asked him why and he says that he does not trust them (some of them have even been training for a while, but there goals are to become teachers and not fighters) and he also says that is just basics and when a real fight comes along you do this and not that, its just to make the system look good and teachable, (this is where some of the modern and older filipino arts with grading systems (i.e 1- 10 dan) come along, to hide things from the student---- many techers (FMA) will keep teaching you crap and give you gradings to make you feel good, like i have said earlier the filipino arts in there original form where very quick to learn (although some people learn quicker than others) in todays age they have tried to make a system out of it, my teacher GM Abrian has always told me i do not have a system meaning no baics no sylabus and no gradings....

because the old way of techching there where only priciples and solutions to real attacks no 1 to 12... in this way you really couldnt teach it in a class, dojo setting it was always tought one on one.........
 
Originally posted by moromoro
i agree with kingstons statements, it will always come down to your training and the skill of the opponent...
(never give up attitude when your life in danger)


Mormegil

yes, the filipino arts can be funny, (i dont have any experience with the negros systems)
but some masters will add to their curriculum techinques and drills that they themsleves will never use when it comes down to a real fight, (grand master caballero of the decampo system was said to do this) from my experience with GM navarro he also does this i was amazed at how he will train his other students, ( i train with him 5times a week 1 on 1) he would show them drills and techniques that i never saw him use on sparring and when practicing with me...
i asked him why and he says that he does not trust them (some of them have even been training for a while, but there goals are to become teachers and not fighters) and he also says that is just basics and when a real fight comes along you do this and not that, its just to make the system look good and teachable, (this is where some of the modern and older filipino arts with grading systems (i.e 1- 10 dan) come along, to hide things from the student---- many techers (FMA) will keep teaching you crap and give you gradings to make you feel good, like i have said earlier the filipino arts in there original form where very quick to learn (although some people learn quicker than others) in todays age they have tried to make a system out of it, my teacher GM Abrian has always told me i do not have a system meaning no baics no sylabus and no gradings....

because the old way of techching there where only priciples and solutions to real attacks no 1 to 12... in this way you really couldnt teach it in a class, dojo setting it was always tought one on one.........

Definately possible. But you have to admit, against an unskilled attacker, empty hand knife defense can work (can, not will).
 
But you have to admit, against an unskilled attacker, empty hand knife defense can work (can, not will).

it can on some attackers but not all, and how many times can you keep hoping that your attacker will be unskilled he could have killed someon before or actually inflicted injury on many before, also these attackers have unstable murderous minds many will not hesitate to kill you,, so you have to be carefull and train for years and train properly for it to work

no weekend workshop will help..
 
Originally posted by moromoro
But you have to admit, against an unskilled attacker, empty hand knife defense can work (can, not will).

it can on some attackers but not all, and how many times can you keep hoping that your attacker will be unskilled he could have killed someon before or actually inflicted injury on many before, also these attackers have unstable murderous minds many will not hesitate to kill you,, so you have to be carefull and train for years and train properly for it to work

no weekend workshop will help..

Well, I've been attacked 0 times with a knife. I haven't been in a fight since high school, back in 1992. I avoid dangerous situations as much as possible. Hopefully, I won't have to worry about being attacked many times by knife wielding people. I guess I'll keep my fingers crossed.
 
My two cents (moro moro...that is two pennies).....

Moro moro,
I am not sure what your circumstances are, but I do not encounter much life and death conflict here. I am 32 years old, I live in a country where you can be escorted out of a public place for wearing a large knife much less a sword or machete (the United States of America) and I haven't been involved in an unorchestrated combat situation in 12 years. I have, however, been in conflicts (a lot of conflicts!!) involving weapons (blunt, sharp, projectile, flexible) and I can tell that you are speculating about a different dynamic than what I, and I imagine the majority of those posting to this thread, am used to facing. Please take this into consideration before you make such dogmatic and definitive statements. Also, I carry knives. They are concealable (more important than you might think here in the states), effective tools and handy in those DAILY muggings that all of us suffer through. I am neither a girl nor accustomed to being nice when laughed at by others.

As far as the thread goes, I agree with much of what persilat has contributed, not just because he is a friend, but because I believe he has a good handle on how things work here in the states. Overall, I would say that training in weapons systems cannot hurt. If nothing else, I have gained a clearer understanding of the dynamics of such a situation and of the unified theory of weapons dynamics (baston, sword, same angles, same weapon etc.) Oh oh...I think I just stepped in a pile of my own B.S., so I'd better stop here.

Lastly, if we all just used Anting Anting wouldn't this be a moot point?!?
 

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