Is Birth/Genetics Random? What do you think?

[Freestyler777]

It may seem an odd question, especially in this era, when religion has been almost replaced by science. But what I am trying to say is, there is a certain part of a person's appearance/demeanor that is given by heaven, not by random genetic mutation.

I believe genetics is the language of creation, and although evolution did happen, there are certain traits that are passed along from generation to generation, and there are some that just appear out of nowhere.

Orientals believe in reincarnation, or Pythogorean Theory, an immortal soul that travels from body to body. I think that is phooey, but they seem to think that there is such a thing as 'taking a fortunate birth' or on the other hand, 'being an outcast'. I certainly dont believe in reincarnation or an immortal soul anymore, but I digress.

What I ask is, what do you think determines a person's uniqueness, how much of it is genetic, and is there anything like randomness, or is God/Heaven the source of a person's characteristics?

I do believe in evolution, not creation, since there is an overwhleming body of evidence, namely science, that indicates it happened. And the torah is no historical document, every society has a creation myth, judaism is no exception. However, I do not believe that we are just primates competing for resources. What is your take on this?

 

[Blindside]

I look at my son, and see many of my features, my lips, my nose, my eyes, my feet, my wife's hair, her eyebrows, her chin.

With regard to the personality, we are still trying to figure that out, or at least blame the other person.

My father majored in sociology in college, he says he immediately disregarded much of what he learned when he had kids, according to him, my sister and I had very distinct and consistent personalities from birth.

Some traits are derived from your genes, but there appear to be an element of randomness. Identical twins have similar but different fingerprints. Clones of calico cats have different colorings on their coats, and according to the people who handle them, different personalities.

Incidentally, the classic argument that you are beginning here is referred to as "nature versus nurture." Also, the Pythagorean Theorem doesn't have anything to do with reincarnation, unless the the relationship of the three sides of a right triangle has something to do with the soul.

Lamont

 

[Freestyler777]

I was reading a book, Celtic Myths and Legends, by Rolleston, and he said 'pythagorean theory' is conflated with the 'Oriental belief in an immortal soul that travels from body to body'. I'm not talking about that mathematical equation that I learned in high school years ago, and promptly forgot.

But technicalities aside, I thank you for the post. Based on my experience and belief, I think nature and nurture are both very important. But I am trying to get to something deeper. Is genetics random? Is anything random? Or is there a 'design' to a person?

 

[bydand]

However, I do not believe that we are just primates competing for resources. What is your take on this?

Does this mean I can scratch my butt in public now?

I'll tell you, my thoughts were smartened up real quick when I started having children. My wife and I have 4 boys, and while they all have the same genetic make-up, no two of them are alike in more than some shared features. Their personalities run the gamut from quiet and insightful, to outgoing and brash. They are all raised in the same environment and with mostly the same stimuli, the difference would come from friends and different school classes. I have to say that birth is a combination of BOTH genetics and a randomness. While my wife and I supplied the genetic material, I have to believe God supplied their basic personalities. Do I think everybody should feel the same? Nope, that is up to each individual, but you asked what we thought as individuals, and that is my stance. No amount of statistical data, or scientific studies can diminish what I see with my own two eyes every single day. You cannot separate Nature from Nurture when it comes to a person. Both play a part and these parts from what I have seen are almost dead equal. Before I had kids of my own I would have argued that stand, now I can't.

 

[michaeledward]

Nature and Nurture equally.

The ability to measure the direct influence of all impacts of nature and nurture are quite probably beyond human measure. This does not make those effects derivative of a supernatural being.

But, what the hell does the Pythagorean theorem have to do with any of this? The square of the hypotnuse is equal to the square of the legs in a right triangle? How does greek mathematics fit into creation myths?

 

[Steel Tiger]

Nature and Nurture equally.

The ability to measure the direct influence of all impacts of nature and nurture are quite probably beyond human measure. This does not make those effects derivative of a supernatural being.

But, what the hell does the Pythagorean theorem have to do with any of this? The square of the hypotnuse is equal to the square of the legs in a right triangle? How does greek mathematics fit into creation myths?

It would appear that there is some confusion about what part of Pythagorus' teachings applies in this instance. It is not, as you have pointed out, the Pythagorean Theorem which the work on Celtic myths Freestyler referred to was meaning to speak of. Below is a couple of paragraphs culled from Wikipedia about Pythagorus' religious beliefs which are more pertinant. (My emphasis).


Pythagoras’ religious and scientific views were, in his opinion, inseparably interconnected. However, they are looked at separately in the 21st century. Religiously, Pythagoras was a believer of metempsychosis. He believed in transmigration, or the reincarnation of the soul again and again into the bodies of humans, animals, or vegetables until it became moral. His ideas of reincarnation were influenced by Greek Mythology. He was one of the first to propose that the thought processes and the soul were located in the brain and not the heart. He himself claimed to have lived four lives that he could remember in detail, and heard the cry of his dead friend in the bark of a dog.
One of Pythagoras' beliefs was that the essence of being is number. Thus, being relies on stability of all things that create the universe. Things like health relied on a stable proportion of elements; too much or too little of one thing causes an imbalance that makes a being unhealthy. Pythagoras viewed thinking as the calculating with the idea numbers. When combined with the Folk theories, the philosophy evolves into a belief that Knowledge of the essence of being can be found in the form of numbers. If this is taken a step further, one can say that because mathematics is an unseen essence, the essence of being is an unseen characteristic that can be encountered by the study of mathematics.


Pythagorus was pretty secretive about all this and established a cult based on the mysteries of numbers and the universe. It is generally known as the Pythagoreans.

Some of what he taught was pretty strange.

 

[Freestyler777]

Thank you Steel Tiger. That was very interesting indeed.

Michaeledward, I don't believe that we are just one of many animals competing for resources. I also dont believe that such a complex phenomena such as the world could happen by accident. Intelligent design implies an intelligent designer.

Evolution happened. Carbon dating alone blows away the biblical belief that the world is only 6000 years old or so. That does not mean that life spontaneously began from a sea of organic nutrients.

For what it is worth, I believe that Heaven means to be one with God, not a place you go to after you die, and that God is a state of being, not a supernatural anthropomorphic father figure. But there is a longing for the spiritual even in cavemen, let alone modern man, so you can't do away with religion entirely.

My belief is that the body is a soul, no distinction between mind, body, and spirit, and that dead souls rest in sheol, or hades, or the Otherworld whatever you call it, and can eventually become guardian spirits of their descendents. I know that sounds like science fiction, but it is almost a universal phenomena amongst shamanic cultures, such as China or mesoamerica. I don't think that is crazy or illogical.

My original post was not intended to become a 'nature vs nurture' debate, because i agree with michaeledward in that it is almost impossible to seperate them. My point was, is there destiny or is everything random? What makes a human being the way he is? If you are right, and everything is random and humans are just another species fighting for survival, who share common ancestory with other primates, then all the teachings of religion and philosophy are wrong. And I dont want to believe that, nor do I think I should.

 

[Blindside]

My point was, is there destiny or is everything random? What makes a human being the way he is? If you are right, and everything is random and humans are just another species fighting for survival, who share common ancestory with other primates, then all the teachings of religion and philosophy are wrong. And I dont want to believe that, nor do I think I should.

Put me in the "everything random" camp, there is no meaning to the universe, humans are not special, when you die, thats it, the light goes out.

I find it odd that you will take scientific evidence in the form of carbon dating or fossils or whatever as evidence for evolution, that apparently disproves one creation myth, but then come up with an elaborate hypothesis about a human soul based on a bunch of other myths.

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

Pythagorus was pretty secretive about all this and established a cult based on the mysteries of numbers and the universe. It is generally known as the Pythagoreans.

Some of what he taught was pretty strange.

Thanks! I had no idea.

 

[kaizasosei]

yes. noone can truly know because the higher teachings were completely secret. this question was asked to me when i was in egyptology, i started trying to answer, but at some point the prof. told me that nobody knows the exact nature of the teachings other than the most common math and philosophy.

j

 

[Freestyler777]

Thank you blindside for posting. Allow me to explain my view.

It is obvious that even primitive man had religous beliefs, often associated with the burial of the dead and the success of hunting expeditions. I know we are getting closer to anthropology here than to wherever we started. But anyway, I also do not believe in a lot of religious concepts, however, there are some universal phenomena that make cultures extremely similar, and therefore there must be some truth to it.

I think humans are way above other animals, even other primates. Humans have language, creativity, and technology. That is a huge difference between a man and an ape or a bear. Religion is part of the human experience, and I believe that humans are at the top of the evolutionary ladder, not one of many species.

 

[Blindside]

But anyway, I also do not believe in a lot of religious concepts, however, there are some universal phenomena that make cultures extremely similar, and therefore there must be some truth to it.

As a universal truth, how about "humans are afraid to die, and make things up to make themselves feel better about it."

If you accept "universal phenomena" in religions as evidence for or against something, do you believe in gods or demons?

 

[Freestyler777]

I didn't mean to antagonize you, blindside. But there are certain cultural universals that are so ubiqitous that there must be some truth to it. And no, I dont believe in gods or demons. I do believe in Jung's collective sub-conscious, but that is a different story altogether.

But follow my reasoning- humans are the highest organisms. There's no other creature that has technology, learning, organized medicine, religion, or philosophy. If we are advanced enough to probe nature's mysteries through science, then we can easily draw a conclusion that there is some design to the universe, such complex levels of order cannot have come about randomly. The odds are tiny, like winning the lottery.

So it comes back to my original post. My personal view is, there is something about human beings and the way they look and behave that is given by an outside force. There's more to it than sperm and ovum. I don't believe genetics is completely random.

 

[Dionysianexile]

IF we are speaking about physical traits, then that is due to some random variation in the parents genes when passed on.

Human behavior or personality, however, is a much more complex phenomenon. The argument of nature versus nurture is often brought up. In the case of humans, there is a genetic component to personality, and this is most apparent with newborns, as the impact of "nurture" is minimized. However, with time, the influence of the individuals own experiences is going to weigh much heavier on their general personality than their genetic components of behavior.

 

[Blindside]

then we can easily draw a conclusion that there is some design to the universe, such complex levels of order cannot have come about randomly. The odds are tiny, like winning the lottery.

Lets say a hundred billion galaxies are created in this universe, and in one galaxy of 50 billion stars, one of those stars has a planet capable of supporting life, and of the 5 million species on the planet, one comes up with a high level of consciousness.

You look at these incredible odds and say; "humans are the chosen of the universe."

I look at it and say "we are lottery winners."

Lamont

 

[Rich Parsons]

It may seem an odd question, especially in this era, when religion has been almost replaced by science. But what I am trying to say is, there is a certain part of a person's appearance/demeanor that is given by heaven, not by random genetic mutation.

I believe genetics is the language of creation, and although evolution did happen, there are certain traits that are passed along from generation to generation, and there are some that just appear out of nowhere.

Orientals believe in reincarnation, or Pythogorean Theory, an immortal soul that travels from body to body. I think that is phooey, but they seem to think that there is such a thing as 'taking a fortunate birth' or on the other hand, 'being an outcast'. I certainly dont believe in reincarnation or an immortal soul anymore, but I digress.

What I ask is, what do you think determines a person's uniqueness, how much of it is genetic, and is there anything like randomness, or is God/Heaven the source of a person's characteristics?

I do believe in evolution, not creation, since there is an overwhleming body of evidence, namely science, that indicates it happened. And the torah is no historical document, every society has a creation myth, judaism is no exception. However, I do not believe that we are just primates competing for resources. What is your take on this?

There are "X" number of Genes in the human. We only understand a small percentage and by understand I mean know or think we know what they mean or act or represetn in the entire code. Even looking at this from a simple linguistic point of view the vowels have different sounds based upon location to other vowels or consonances. So why not the same for genes.

Some traits follow simple rules of needing to be reinforced and others express themselves no matter what or might even be dominate. But as in the linguist example there are exceptions so I think there are exceptions in genes as well. Take a look at eye color. They say that Blue is recessive and that Green is a Mutation of Blue and Dominant over Blue as well. Yet Brown is Dominate over Green and Blue. Yet, there is a small genetic expression where there was a Green mutation from Brown that is dominate over Brown. (* One might ask why I know this? Both of my parents have green eyes yet I have Brown. Caused quite a stir in 10 grade gentics *)

I also have Gilberts (* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert's_syndrome & http://www.gilbertssyndrome.com/ *) which I have been told is genetic and is passed down. As it comes from my Mothers side of the family and my brother does not have it, this reinforces it being an "X" donation from the mother.

So, I am in the random camp. Other wise I truly would have to question any belief system that designed me the way I am.

 

[Ray]

There is a range (minimum / maximum) for almost everything. Within that range, there is variation. Some variation is random some is not.

For example, a friend of mine and his wife had a child with a rare kidney disorder. Doc said "random mutation." A second child was born with the same rare disorder...doc tested parents, parents have a recessive gene that caused the malady. Had they each married someone with a "normal" gene, the malady most likely wouldn't have surfaced.

Also, consider families with life spans near the maximum. Perhaps an inheritable trait, perhaps not. Consider the 20 year old in this lineage who is on a bus that drives off a bridge because the driver had a heart attack.

Somewhere nurture and nature both come into play for most. But 50/50 can only be the average, not the mode.

 

[Freestyler777]

we are lottery winners

 

[Empty Hands]

Orientals believe in reincarnation, or Pythogorean Theory, an immortal soul that travels from body to body.

So you know, many "Orientals" consider this word derogatory. Also, I know a great many Asian christians, so your all inclusive statement is wrong anyways.

Identical twins have similar but different fingerprints. Clones of calico cats have different colorings on their coats, and according to the people who handle them, different personalities.

Identical twins are far more similar than most people are comfortable accepting. Long separated twins have been found who dress similarly, have similar personalities, have similar political views, marry similar spouses, etc. There is no question that who we are is heavily controlled by our genes. How could it not be? Our brain development is shaped by genes, and brain damage can change the personality of the victim. Consider the case of Phineas Gage, who completely changed his basic personality after a railroad spike injured his forebrain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

As for the Calico cats, the coat differences is due to X-chromosome inactivation in the females, which is a random process. Thus, it is different between individuals.

My wife and I have 4 boys, and while they all have the same genetic make-up, no two of them are alike in more than some shared features.

Actually, your four boys in all likelihood have completely different genetic complements. Each one to the other, they probably share about 25% of their genes (altered a bit by the sex chromosomes, since each of your boys will have the same Y). While it could in theory be 100%, that would be rather unlikely. Thus, it is no surprise that your four boys would be different.

Nature and Nurture equally.

The ability to measure the direct influence of all impacts of nature and nurture are quite probably beyond human measure.

Actually, science is already getting a handle on this. The various contributions of genetics and environment can be calculated using separated twins, which gives a number called the "heritability". The heritability varies between traits - some traits are low, some high. Also, surprisingly, the heritability of a trait can change with age. The heritability of IQ for instance is found to be lower in children, and increases with age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Heritability

Overall, I think there is no question that genetics plays a critical role not only in what we are prepared to accept - like hair or eye color - but in more tricky areas like basic personality. No one likes to believe that they are "locked in", that their personality has a set biological basis. Nonetheless, I think that is what the data forces us to accept.
That doesn't leave a lot of room for the Christian and similar God(s). What does it say for our notions of divine justice that someone might have been born with a personality prone to "sin"? For that after all, we have the sociopaths or the poor people with reactive-attachment disorder. Is it their "fault" in God's eyes? One of the reasons I just can't go for the whole God thing.

 

[Ray]

What does it say for our notions of divine justice that someone might have been born with a personality prone to "sin"?

I dunno what it says about that, but what does it say about my alcoholic father who left his children hungry and penniless for weeks at a time? Are you saying because he was born that way, he couldn't be held responsible? We're humans, after all, the brightest and best that could be randomly come up with.