Interesting TKD Club Rules

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I came across some club rules in for a TKD club in France. Among them:

14. I don't have the right to participate in events, competitions or TRAINING in another club WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION from my Sabeumnim.
16. I must remit a medical certificate for the ability to practice Taekwondo, for each season.

Taekwondo élite, Tkd élite Cergy, taekwondo cergy, Val d'oise

I've heard #14 as an unwritten rule, but never written. I've never heard of a need for a medical certificate.

Have you guys seen these rules for high-performance / competition clubs? Have you any examples of other rules you wouldn't expect?

 

[CB Jones]

I disagree with #14.

 

[Dirty Dog]

16 is just a CYA liability thing. Someone probably got sued.
14 is ridiculous and should be ignored.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've heard of these before. The first one is very Chinese like. Do go sparring with other schools because they will learn the secrets about how you school fights. If both of schools are doing TKD, then there's not many secrets to be concerned with. In addition TKD is very popular so it wouldn't be difficult to find out about TKD through youtube.

As for the medical one. That one is usually reserved for school sports where students have to have a physical. I never heard a club require one. The only groups I would expect that from are from professional organizations and not clubs.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I was doing a competitive fight club then I would restrict training with other groups without my permission as well. Here's why. I had student spar with people outside of school. I didn't know these people or the quality of what they do. She had been sparring with them for about 3 months or more without me knowing. One day I saw a video of her sparring with these people and everything became clear to me. I no longer had to wonder why her sparring didn't get any better. I was looking at it on the video. She had picked up bad habits, tactics and strategies by sparring with these people. Then she would try those same things at the school during sparring classes against other students and none of what she tried worked on us. Basically she went outside the school to learn how to out perform those from the Jow Ga school.

I'm not the best fighter nor am I the best instructor, but I hold myself and my teaching to a high standard. I do my best not to train junk. Had the student just had more faith and trusted and the training that we do in the Jow Ga school, then she would have improved. When I first saw the video I got really mad because I spent time training her how to use Jow Ga kung fu, only for her to throw out the time I spent helping her by adopting trash from someone less skilled than me. I didn't like it and that's when #14 came to my mind. I now understood. It was like a slap to my face insult. In addition to the insult, she wasted her own time because she didn't improve, she got worse, and suffered physically with injuries because techniques were wrong. She was doing things that I constantly remind students not to do in regards to stance and addressing the lead hand.

After I calmed down, I told her that she shouldn't spar outside of the school because she had picked up bad habits that were degrading her Jow Ga training.

If I'm doing competition, then I would simply state the rule so that I can ensure that my fighters will always have something that new for their opponent to deal with. I would want to keep that tree of strategy as fresh as possible.

I don't train sport so the "don't train with another school without my permission" doesn't bother me as long as the student finds a school of quality. "Don't be bringing crap back to the Jow Ga School and having me correct that stupid sheeetz." If a students goes to another school to spar, train, or compete with, then that students needs to go in Jow Ga and come back Jow Ga. If I know a school has good quality training and sparring then I don't have to correct things because I know they will be bringing good habits back.

My Sifu was like this too. My school was only allowed to spar with certain schools. Other schools we weren't allowed to spar with. It had nothing to do with the system, but the quality of the teacher.

 

[CB Jones]

If I was doing a competitive fight club then I would restrict training with other groups without my permission as well. Here's why. I had student spar with people outside of school. I didn't know these people or the quality of what they do. She had been sparring with them for about 3 months or more without me knowing. One day I saw a video of her sparring with these people and everything became clear to me. I no longer had to wonder why her sparring didn't get any better. I was looking at it on the video. She had picked up bad habits, tactics and strategies by sparring with these people. Then she would try those same things at the school during sparring classes against other students and none of what she tried worked on us. Basically she went outside the school to learn how to out perform those from the Jow Ga school.

I'm not the best fighter nor am I the best instructor, but I hold myself and my teaching to a high standard. I do my best not to train junk. Had the student just had more faith and trusted and the training that we do in the Jow Ga school, then she would have improved. When I first saw the video I got really mad because I spent time training her how to use Jow Ga kung fu, only for her to throw out the time I spent helping her by adopting trash from someone less skilled than me. I didn't like it and that's when #14 came to my mind. I now understood. It was like a slap to my face insult. In addition to the insult, she wasted her own time because she didn't improve, she got worse, and suffered physically with injuries because techniques were wrong. She was doing things that I constantly remind students not to do in regards to stance and addressing the lead hand.

After I calmed down, I told her that she shouldn't spar outside of the school because she had picked up bad habits that were degrading her Jow Ga training.

If I'm doing competition, then I would simply state the rule so that I can ensure that my fighters will always have something that new for their opponent to deal with. I would want to keep that tree of strategy as fresh as possible.

I don't train sport so the "don't train with another school without my permission" doesn't bother me as long as the student finds a school of quality. "Don't be bringing crap back to the Jow Ga School and having me correct that stupid sheeetz." If a students goes to another school to spar, train, or compete with, then that students needs to go in Jow Ga and come back Jow Ga. If I know a school has good quality training and sparring then I don't have to correct things because I know they will be bringing good habits back.

My Sifu was like this too. My school was only allowed to spar with certain schools. Other schools we weren't allowed to spar with. It had nothing to do with the system, but the quality of the teacher.

I just don't get the insult

Students should be free to spar outside of your school. If that slows down their progression that is their fault.

Often times schools use #14 to hide deficiencies in their own instruction. Sometimes going outside their school shows them these deficiencies.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I just don't get the insult

I didn't get the insult either, not until it happened to me and then I understood. The insult feeling comes from the time that I spent to helping the student with the techniques and the application of the techniques. It's not a small token for an instructor or teacher to teach a student how to fight using martial arts technique. From the outside it may seem small and insignificant but as a student you would be getting incredible information that doesn't just help you understand how to fight, but also gives you a new insight on the world and yourself.

To give you an example of the difference. At the school I have regular students who don't care about actually learning how to use Kung Fu to fight. Then there are other students who want to learn and take a special class outside of regular classes. This is the class that I teach and it's high quality. It's not stuff that I would teach to just anyone. If I'm teaching someone this then my expectation is that they ware there to actually learn and try. It's a full comment to learning and using kung fu. If the student isn't willing to do this then there's no need for me to teach them because it would be a waste of my time and a waste of their time.

How long does it take for a student to learn how to Jab in your average martial arts class? In my class that meets once a week, it will take the student almost 2 years. I don't just teach a jab. I teach how to use, when to use, the different variations of a jab, how to drive the power, how to create short power, how to generate long power. Students learn how to generate power to throw a jab while kneeling, vertical jabs, horizontal jabs, angled jabs. I go into the mechanics of a jab and which targets of the body the jabs should, how the jab effects which body part and so on. This is just a few of the things that I go over with the jab. In a regular class I just teach students how to do the basic jab.

Students should be free to spar outside of your school. If that slows down their progression that is their fault.

yes it's their fault but a waste of my time, especially when I have to deal with bad habits that they pick up from people who really don't know what they are doing. The school does not pay me to teach Jow Ga Kung fu. So if you want to learn to how to fight using Jow Ga kung fu then I expect the person not to waste my time.

 

[Headhunter]

The medical certificate sure but the other is dumb. People should be allowed to train wherever they want. If anyone tried telling me I had to only train with them and no where else I'd leave. I do martial arts to learn and the best way to learn is see what else is out there.

 

[RTKDCMB]

By 'another club', do they mean another dojang within their own school or organization or do they mean another school entirely?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

By 'another club', do they mean another dojang within their own school or organization or do they mean another school entirely?

That's a good point since it appears that they have a few locations. I would guess they mean other non-affiliated TKD schools and organizations, since they talk about tournaments.

I told this story before. A 14 year kid wanted to go to a TKD tournament that our school wasn't attending. So he signed himself up, and in the box stating who would be his coach at the tournament (in his corner), he wrote "Master Kim" figuring there would be at least 1 Master Kim. Our school KJN wasn't too happy about that .

 

[CB Jones]

I still just don't get the closed tournaments or restricting of where the students can compete.

This year my son will probably compete in tournaments in 5-6 different organizations.

At a minimum we hit 3-4 different organizations a year. It's great for seeing a variety of styles and abilities.

 

[Balrog]

I came across some club rules in for a TKD club in France. Among them:

14. I don't have the right to participate in events, competitions or TRAINING in another club WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION from my Sabeumnim.
16. I must remit a medical certificate for the ability to practice Taekwondo, for each season.

Taekwondo élite, Tkd élite Cergy, taekwondo cergy, Val d'oise

I've heard #14 as an unwritten rule, but never written. I've never heard of a need for a medical certificate.

I've never seen #14 written out before, especially with the "authorization" part. To us, it's just common courtesy. If one of my students is going to be out of town and wants to train at another ATA school, all they have to do is tell me. I'll call the instructor of the other school and give them a heads-up that my student is coming to visit.

As far as medical stuff goes, I have a line on my membership agreement that says the student acknowledges that they are in good physical condition and recommends that they see a doctor first if they have any doubts. I don't require a permission letter from a doctor. I agree with the opinion that #16 is a CYA move, but I think it is taken to extremes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've never seen #14 written out before, especially with the "authorization" part. To us, it's just common courtesy. If one of my students is going to be out of town and wants to train at another ATA school, all they have to do is tell me. I'll call the instructor of the other school and give them a heads-up that my student is coming to visit.

As far as medical stuff goes, I have a line on my membership agreement that says the student acknowledges that they are in good physical condition and recommends that they see a doctor first if they have any doubts. I don't require a permission letter from a doctor. I agree with the opinion that #16 is a CYA move, but I think it is taken to extremes.

I guess there's a lot of schools to compete with for business in that area where the school is located.

 

[marques]

16. I must remit a medical certificate for the ability to practice Taekwondo, for each season.

That's French law. I will be surprised if any formal club doesn't ask for it.

The certificate is specific to a discipline and it is valid for 1 year. But clubs go even further and require no older than 3 months. This is one of the reasons that put me out of training. One day off to go to the doctor asking for a certificate (and 23€ for the service). Forever postponed. If you change your mind (I did) and actually you want BJJ instead of Judo, for instance, you start it all over again... Red tape à la française.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just don't get the insult

Students should be free to spar outside of your school. If that slows down their progression that is their fault.

Often times schools use #14 to hide deficiencies in their own instruction. Sometimes going outside their school shows them these deficiencies.

Well, maybe.

And maybe the teacher actually understands how the learning progresses, and is simply trying to keep the student from distractions that disrupt the training. Sometimes a teacher actually does have good advice, even when it's not what the student wants to hear. Sometimes it has nothing to do with masking deficiencies, even tho an onlooker makes that assumption.

I would suggest a teacher explain why they don't want a student doing something like this. If a student understands the reasoning, they might be less likely to disregard the advice.

Then, If a student does not like the house rules, he can go elsewhere.

And everyone is happy.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Had a student in my Taiji shifu's class many years ago and he was going to go to China and get into push hands competitions. My Shifu told him he should not do that, he pressed my shifu as to why and after many attempts to give a polite answer my shifu finally gave in and answered honestly... he said..."because they would hurt you...your push hands is not that good." ... the guy never returned to class.... never found out if it was because he was insulted or because he went to China and got his butt kicked.....

 

[CB Jones]

Had a student in my Taiji shifu's class many years ago and he was going to go to China and get into push hands competitions. My Shifu told him he should not do that, he pressed my shifu as to why and after many attempts to give a polite answer my shifu finally gave in and answered honestly... he said..."because they would hurt you...your push hands is not that good." ... the guy never returned to class.... never found out if it was because he was insulted or because he went to China and got his butt kicked.....

I can completely understand holding a student back because they aren't ready or you know the other place has shady practices.

What I disagree with is blanket rules against training or competing with or against someone outside your school or organization.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I can completely understand holding a student back because they aren't ready ...

Funny, I had the opposite this weekend. I started boxing("beginner" at best!) and the instructor said, "How old are you? How much do you weigh?"

He was looking for someone about 170 pounds, over the age of 35. He had received a call from another coach looking for a suitable opponent for a older beginner boxer.

At this point, I know I have no business in the ring. But the coach feels boxing is safe, so why not try. I declined.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

That's French law. I will be surprised if any formal club doesn't ask for it.

Thanks, that's interesting. I was just thinking, "Great...another 50 euro to spend." 23 euros isn't too bad.

 

[JR 137]

I've never seen #14 written out before, especially with the "authorization" part. To us, it's just common courtesy. If one of my students is going to be out of town and wants to train at another ATA school, all they have to do is tell me. I'll call the instructor of the other school and give them a heads-up that my student is coming to visit.

We have basically the same policy in Seido - if you're going to visit another Seido school, your CI will call the other school's CI as a courtesy. Not a bad thing at all IMO. And the conversation is probably 99% shooting the breeze with another CI.