In search of boon hae

[IcemanSK]

Since the thread about the way forms are done, I've found these videos that are opposites & yet seem to both miss the mark to me.

One:

is from the World Poomsae Championships.

The other:

is of Chloe Bruce, a young British gal who IS flash personified.

The 1st is the current "standard" way to do these poomsae. The latter is pushing the physical limits of the human body.

Some may quickly make the statement that the "standard" poomsae is "correct" because it is (if even for now) the "standard." Yet, I wonder if the folks doing this "standard" way (which is new & not the way these gentlemen were taught these originally) are searching to understand the boon hae (application) or looking to merely do it correctly according to the new standard? Does standardizing the poomsae take away the need to look into the application of the techniques? If so, are they much different than Ms. Bruce who searches to express herself (or have the 6'7" attacker assess her manicure?)

Discuss.

 

[newGuy12]

The other:

is of Chloe Bruce, a young British gal who IS flash personified.

That is one of the most awesome displays of athleticism I have ever seen! I'm not sure exactly what it was, or what the point of it was, but I know talent and skill when I see it!

 

[newGuy12]

Application

I'm stunned by this kind of control. I've never seen anyone other than those circus people in that famous French troupe be able to move like this.

Its hard for me to even think of any comparison (not that I would be the one to say, anyway), because I'm overcome by this skill.

Okay, I'll shut up now. This is going to be one good thread!!!

 

[dortiz]

There is not one thing I can say after watching her. Stunning!!!! Old man Dave now has to go to do a lot of stretching and workout some........


Dave O.

 

[jks9199]

Ms. Bruce did a nice, limited gymnastic floor routine with some TKD interspersed. She missed several required elements of the floor routine, however. She's quite talented, incredibly flexible, and clearly works hard in training. But I saw no function in her routine... In a few cases, were she to try to hit someone, the punches would either fall short as she pulled away, or have no power. I did find one move interesting; it appeared that she intends it as a grab, then shoot the right knee across, under the grab, to a hooking axe kick from the left... Neat idea, and I'd like to see her give it a shot with an apponent.

Regarding the traditional forms... I watched several of them. I don't know these kata. From these performances, I have no idea if there is combat application or not; none of the performers I saw had that focus I've discussed elsewhere. I can't put an opponent "into" their form... Many of the movements seemed to have deliberately had the rhythm altered... I don't know. Sharp, clean technique. Lots of power in some of the moves. But they didn't grab my attention.

 

[terryl965]

Ms. Bruce is a great show but her lines and SD movement where non exsistrict withen her Poomsae. She is limber as a rubber band but could probaly not fight her way out of a corner. I'm critizing what I see in her movements. Punches are to short and lack of power, kicks are also lacking in the right position to do any damage.

In th Kuem Kang video he has no power and was off the mark quit a few times. The Knee and high - low blocks they should all come together at the same times. His lack of intensity is just bad, I see him as putting on a show for the judges as well.

Have a nice day

 

[exile]

Ms. Bruce did a nice, limited gymnastic floor routine with some TKD interspersed.

Exactly. And the TKD was mostly symbolic. Ah, that looks like the kind of thing we do when we do an ax kick. Look, that was a side kick... and now some roundhouses... and there was a punch (possibly)...

But the TKD moves are embeded in something that looks like a basic gymnastics performance; some of the things that the wu shu people have been doing for a long time are far more extreme and jaw dropping. Mostly what comes across is the lack of force behind what martial moves there are. Yes, she can rotate rapidly rotate 360 and throw eight roundhouses at head height in that position, but none of them would knock a fly very far off its path. And the punches suggest about the same level of impact as a cheerleader's hand routines.

Somersaults have been included in XMA `kata' performances for many years now, so it wasn't all that surprising to see several in there. Again, it's hard to see what possible connection this kind of movement could have to a well-designed set of combat-effective tactics, but clearly that wasn't the poinnt of the performance.

She missed several required elements of the floor routine, however. She's quite talented, incredibly flexible, and clearly works hard in training. But I saw no function in her routine... In a few cases, were she to try to hit someone, the punches would either fall short as she pulled away, or have no power. I did find one move interesting; it appeared that she intends it as a grab, then shoot the right knee across, under the grab, to a hooking axe kick from the left... Neat idea, and I'd like to see her give it a shot with an apponent.

Right, no function, only form. People who haven't been keeping up with the current XMA-style kata routines will probably be more impressed with this performance than those who've been watching these routines get more and more acrobatic, more and more airborne, and less and less about fighting methods over the past half decade or so. Ms. Bruce's performance looks very well done and precise, but it's relatively conservative; she didn't do any cartwheels, for example, which I've seen in at least one neo-kata... exhibition, I guess, for want of a better word.

In a sense, though, her style of performance is nothing more than the logical outcome of a view of forms which leeches them of all substantive combat meaning. If you want to know where CB is coming from, it seems to me that it's built into the core premise of the `traditional' performance ethic, which focuses on a kind of conventionalized style and assesses competitors on how closely they adhere to these requirements while executing the moves of the form. Once you make that leap—from the form as an instruction manual on the one hand, to the form as the physical expression/interpretation of a page of Stepanov notation for a somewhat violent-looking modern ballet, on the other—you're on the way to Ms. Bruce's performance. Because no matter how `classical' you try to keep the martial ballet you've scripted, someone will come along at one point with modern dance ideas and pretty soon you'll have... just what we were looking at. It's like going from Swan Lake to The Rites of Spring... yes, the first is über-`classical' and the latter is... well, the choreographic analogue of Stravinsky's wild music—but they're both dances, in the end.

Regarding the traditional forms... I watched several of them. I don't know these kata. From these performances, I have no idea if there is combat application or not; none of the performers I saw had that focus I've discussed elsewhere. I can't put an opponent "into" their form... Many of the movements seemed to have deliberately had the rhythm altered... I don't know. Sharp, clean technique. Lots of power in some of the moves. But they didn't grab my attention.

What I saw was a very deliberately paced, almost monotonously `4/4 timing' performance of hyungs from the standard repertoire. The difference between those forms and Ms. Bruce's is that it's probably possible to recover combat uses of the sequences performed from the execution of the traditional hyungs at this point. But there was no sense that the performer in any of them was actually engaging in combat moves; what we were getting seemed to be a series of meaningless movements put together because, well, this is the way the poomae is done, so that's how we'r doing it.

I think you're quite right, Tom, in your OP comment that both of these kinds of demonstrations miss the mark in terms of the basic martial purpose of hyungs; as dances, they correspond to difference between Ivanov/Tchaikowsky's grand opera and Nijinksy/Stravinsky's modern dance. Artistic styles evolve. But basic methods for carrying out certain kinds of tasks tend to change much more slowly, because those methods are often the best ones for carrying out the task at hand.

 

[Tez3]

Funnily enough in another thread I mentioned watching a girl doing kata that depressed me no end and here she is again (there's actually a whole family of them too.) I saw them at Seni a big martial arts exposition we have here. "It's kata Jim but not as we know it!" She also did a demo at an MMA fight night I believe and I'm afraid the comments that were made on an MMA forum afterwards were very little to do with MA but more to do with the response of red blooded males faced with a very athletic and bendy female. I believe this a a favoured fantasy among a lot of men!! The poor girl would probably be very shocked! It does show however the lack of favour this type of kata exhibition (yes I agree that's the right word) does us. No wonder when faced with this so many people think kata/forms/patterns are pointless.

On a side note at Seni I also saw some awsome Sikh weapons displays, some good Muay Thai and some very fast, effective judo from Neil Adams a British Olympic medal winner. The emphasis though on the whole was one the flash of MA.

 

[IcemanSK]

What I saw was a very deliberately paced, almost monotonously `4/4 timing' performance of hyungs from the standard repertoire. The difference between those forms and Ms. Bruce's is that it's probably possible to recover combat uses of the sequences performed from the execution of the traditional hyungs at this point. But there was no sense that the performer in any of them was actually engaging in combat moves; what we were getting seemed to be a series of meaningless movements put together because, well, this is the way the poomae is done, so that's how we'r doing it.


exile, I think you & Terry have hit the point at which I have the biggest issue. These WC poomsae that are "standardized" for competition were not done the way these men were taught these poomsae. I'll watch GM Lee, Hyung Kyu perform Hansoo & learn, not just get entertained. The standardization seems to have sucked the life out of these poomsae. What makes it more sad to me is that they will change the way they're done again in a few years.

And as far as Chloe Bruce goes, I'm less inclined to say much about her. I'll agree with Tez3...she is "bendy." Here's a contrast musical form by GM Lee, Hyung Kyu that I'd rather watch. There is martial purpose in his movements.

 

[exile]

Ms. Bruce is a great show but her lines and SD movement where non exsistrict withen her Poomsae. She is limber as a rubber band but could probaly not fight her way out of a corner. I'm critizing what I see in her movements. Punches are to short and lack of power, kicks are also lacking in the right position to do any damage.

Again, in the same way that gymnastics and cheerleading routines don't give the impression that they could do too much damage to an attacker, eh? That's what I was getting at when I described what TKD there is in the routine as `symbolic'—yes, a fist; yes, a roundhouse; yes, a sidekick... ah, must be TKD. But just the motions.

In th Kuem Kang video he has no power and was off the mark quit a few times. The Knee and high - low blocks they should all come together at the same times. His lack of intensity is just bad, I see him as putting on a show for the judges as well.

Exactly, they're different points on the `martial dance' continuum. Classical ballet vs. modern experimental dance... you pays yer money and you takes your cherce.

Have a nice day

You too, Terry!

Funnily enough in another thread I mentioned watching a girl doing kata that depressed me no end and here she is again (there's actually a whole family of them too.) I saw them at Seni a big martial arts exposition we have here. "It's kata Jim but not as we know it!" She also did a demo at an MMA fight night I believe and I'm afraid the comments that were made on an MMA forum afterwards were very little to do with MA but more to do with the response of red blooded males faced with a very athletic and bendy female. I believe this a a favoured fantasy among a lot of men!! The poor girl would probably be very shocked!

Message understood, Tez—I suspect some of the popularity of that wushu stuff comes from the same source—it's almost always women who perform that extreme contortionist/acrobatics... hyung performance going the way of beach volleyball......

It does show however the lack of favour this type of kata exhibition (yes I agree that's the right word) does us. No wonder when faced with this so many people think kata/forms/patterns are pointless.

On a side note at Seni I also saw some awsome Sikh weapons displays, some good Muay Thai and some very fast, effective judo from Neil Adams a British Olympic medal winner. The emphasis though on the whole was one the flash of MA.

This is where the whole XMA (extreme martial acrobatics, it should stand for!) thing is going. But I really do think what Chloe Bruce and her fellows in the XMA demartialization of hyungs are doing is just the logical end of the thing that the guy in the Iceman's `traditional' performance link is doing. Once you get one, you're going to wind up with the other somewhere down the line.

What's interesting is that at least some of the traditional MA orgs and associations have unpleasant things to say about the XMA people, not realizing that the de-martializing of the MAs started with those orgs themselves, and their `display' tournament rules. Now they see the outcome and don't like it, without recognizing that it's just their own offspring.

 

[Tez3]

My one of my most treasured possessions is a video of the Founder of Wado Ryu Ohtsuka Sensei doing Wado Ryu katas. I even keep a video recorder to watch them on though I will have try to get them on to DVD if I can find a way to do it. they are the closest thing to perfection I've ever seen.Everything gets compared to that in my eyes.

 

[exile]

My one of my most treasured possessions is a video of the Founder of Wado Ryu Ohtsuka Sensei doing Wado Ryu katas. I even keep a video recorder to watch them on though I will have try to get them on to DVD if I can find a way to do it. they are the closest thing to perfection I've ever seen.Everything gets compared to that in my eyes.

Mmmmmm.... now that sounds like something worth watching. Any chance of getting those into a format where we could have a look at them here?

 

[newGuy12]

What's interesting is that at least some of the traditional MA orgs and associations have unpleasant things to say about the XMA people, not realizing that the de-martializing of the MAs started with those orgs themselves, and their `display' tournament rules. Now they see the outcome and don't like it, without recognizing that it's just their own offspring.

Oh, my my! I can see clearly now. I understand!

 

[exile]

Oh, my my! I can see clearly now. I understand!

See, as entertainment, as an exhibition of just how flexible and balanced it's possible to be, CB's performance is fine. If it were packaged in a different way—so that it wouldn't be taken to be the same kind of thing as watching the senior Wado-Ryu master that Tez mentioned performing kata, or the kind of demonstration that Iain Abernethy gives on his DVDs about bunkai for the great Shotokan classic kata—that would be fine. I'm not a puritan about this sort of thing, I've no objection to people having fun with complex body movements. The problem is that to the extent that this kind of thing puts pressure on the TMAs as a whole to move in the direction of martial spectacle, it will add further to the problem of people's severe misimpressions of the MAs, to which MA schools, to survive, must respond by giving those people what they want. Bit by bit, the curriculum becomes stripped of its combat content. And that makes it much harder for people who want to learn that content to find schools where they can train accordingly...

 

[Kacey]

Ms. Bruce did a nice, limited gymnastic floor routine with some TKD interspersed. She missed several required elements of the floor routine, however. She's quite talented, incredibly flexible, and clearly works hard in training. But I saw no function in her routine... In a few cases, were she to try to hit someone, the punches would either fall short as she pulled away, or have no power. I did find one move interesting; it appeared that she intends it as a grab, then shoot the right knee across, under the grab, to a hooking axe kick from the left... Neat idea, and I'd like to see her give it a shot with an apponent.

I agree. Many of the more gymnastic movements she made were fun to watch (if totally beyond my flexibility), and the full splits while standing up are interesting - but I've seen other people do both the full splits and the spinning roundhouse kicks and break with them, something I don't think she demonstrated the ability to do. I can't speak to whether or not she is actually able to use such techniques for self-defense - but it certainly didn't look like it from here; it reminded me of the final scene in the movie Flashdance more than anything else.

Regarding the traditional forms... I watched several of them. I don't know these kata. From these performances, I have no idea if there is combat application or not; none of the performers I saw had that focus I've discussed elsewhere. I can't put an opponent "into" their form... Many of the movements seemed to have deliberately had the rhythm altered... I don't know. Sharp, clean technique. Lots of power in some of the moves. But they didn't grab my attention.

I don't know these kata either; I practice a different set. However, I could definitely see a difference between the performance of the gentleman who was awarded the bronze medal and the other two... but IMHO, and remembering I don't know these kata, I thought the gentleman who was awarded the silver medal was better - his balance was more consistent, as were his strikes and kicks, in terms of focus. It could be that the kata are different enough from what I know - but similar enough to see the similarities - but many of the movements seem stilted to me, and the timing did seem off in some way that I can't really explain.

 

[IcemanSK]

I don't know these kata either; I practice a different set. However, I could definitely see a difference between the performance of the gentleman who was awarded the bronze medal and the other two... but IMHO, and remembering I don't know these kata, I thought the gentleman who was awarded the silver medal was better - his balance was more consistent, as were his strikes and kicks, in terms of focus. It could be that the kata are different enough from what I know - but similar enough to see the similarities - but many of the movements seem stilted to me, and the timing did seem off in some way that I can't really explain.

Kacey, you are in good company on the silver medal winner.

Here is GM Lee, Hyung Kyu performing Hansoo.

Here is Dang, Ky Tu performing the same poomsae "Hansoo" (3rd poomsae in the sequence) in the standardized way. It's not the same form IMO.

 

[jim777]

That Chloe Bruce is pretty far out there, I'm surpirsed she hasn't been in Jackie Chan movies or something. This clip is nearly 10 years old...

[yt]isAHsGa2wCU&NR[/yt]

 

[jks9199]

Here's a contrast musical form by GM Lee, Hyung Kyu that I'd rather watch. There is martial purpose in his movements.

While I didn't see it throughout the form, I saw that focus or intensity I've described in a few different points; it was easy to see one or more interpretations of the application based on the movements.

But, I think (and I could easily be mistaken!) that it may just have been one of the traditional forms set to music?

 

[IcemanSK]

While I didn't see it throughout the form, I saw that focus or intensity I've described in a few different points; it was easy to see one or more interpretations of the application based on the movements.

But, I think (and I could easily be mistaken!) that it may just have been one of the traditional forms set to music?

Many parts of the form seem to be taken from parts of other forms. I think he took bars from several & added in other things. But you are right about his intent of application.

 

[allpet]

I'm heavily into boon hae or however you want to write it but I don't have any problem with the standardization of poomsae.

In the old days patterns were only meant to help you remember what you already had learned and that's what they do for me. Help me remember applications.

If you do it the "old" or the "new" standardized way doesn't matter because as soon as you start grabbing each other it wont resemble any of the standards enough to satisfy the purists. :-D