If Republicans did all this in 2004, is there any hope for 2006?

[Makalakumu]

This article appeared in the newest issue of Rolling Stone. It was written by Robert Kennedy Jr. and is perhaps one of the best researched media peices out there on the topic of the 2004 election debacle.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

None of this is old news. I've debated this several times on MT and I've poked through nearly all of the 205 citations that RFK jr is using to back up his assertations. Everything from congressional reports to GAO reports to actual legal testimony has been used to paint the picture that shows that the system broke in 2004. Further, it also shows that the Republicans broke the system so they could win at all costs.

The most informative part of this article is how it details what has been done up to date with all of this information. It shows how Republicans that blocked or frustrated investigating at every turn and it shows just exactly how much fear their war-machine has generated. Very little has been done and almost none of this has hit the major media and THAT is a shame.

In 2006, we have a major mid-term election coming up. This election (and 2008) will probably be one of the last real attempts to stop the juggernaut that the corporatists have created and may be one of the most important ones in 50 years. If the Republicans went that far in 2004 to win, how far will they go in 2008?

upnorthkyosa

ps - If anyone skeptical of the assertion that the 2004 election was indeed stolen, I would suggest that you read this article. I've debated this several times on MT and in many other places. Even die-hard Republicans, once all of this is laid out, have expressed that this makes them very uncomfortable with our system in general...even if they won't admit that their party did all of this.

Here are some other threads of interest...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28228&highlight=2004+stolen+election

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25458&highlight=2004+stolen+election

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19061&highlight=2004+stolen+election

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22053&highlight=2004+stolen+election

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20016&highlight=2004+stolen+election

Many of the questions that went unanswered in these threads, have now been answered. And RFK jr. has the clout to go straight to the horse's mouth for the answers.

The bottom line, IMO is that Republicans stole the election in 2004 and all signs show that they are planning to do the exact same thing in 2006. See for yourselves. All of the information is now out there. Grab a cup of coffee and start reading...

 

[Makalakumu]

I want to throw out this caveat. There is a big difference between the average rank and file partisan and one who has committed themselves to the election of a certain candidate. One group chooses and another has already chosen. Further, they have committed to devote their energies to getting someone elected.

With that being said, I've been involved in elections since 1998. I've worked with people on both sides and I can tell you from experience in some of those backroom planning sessions, alot of the stuff described above is totally possible and it all comes down to loyalty. Right now, Republican partisans (not rank and file) have taken this to a whole new level.

 

[michaeledward]

I don't know if there is hope or not. Certainly, this article should be read by as many citizens as possible.

Thank you for your continued vigilence on this issue.

 

[terryl965]

I agree with michaeledward this should be read by alot of people and thank you for bringing to the front here at MT.
terry

 

[Makalakumu]

I appreciate your words, but I think that it is important to remember that an internet forum dedicated to Martial Arts is probably a very poor place to reveal anything of this magnitude. I make no claims to having an "agenda" other then to share this information.

I've followed this particular story with interest for almost two years. I've read hundreds of documents and participated in debates. I've seen both sides of the issue. This article is good. It pulls everything together and gives people direct links to very important secondary and tertiary writings on the subject.

An important question is why, if all of this is true, is nothing being done? The answer, and the article points this out too, is that the Republicans control all of the levers of power. They can decide which laws are enforced and which are not. And if they can't, they can change the law so it isn't a problem. Don't worry about the Constitution getting in the way, that's all wrapped up now too.

Everyone thinks that 2006 will be a major challenge for Republican power, but I think we could be looking at an upset. If events in California are playing out in other states with Republican administrations, then we are in trouble. The list of partisan hacks that Gov. Schwartzenagger appointed to key electoral positions is probably going to invent a new word in the American Election Lexicon.

"Blackwelled."

In MN you've got the same thing happening. Secratary of State Kiffmeyer is appointing partisans to all of the key positions and is doing her best to either find loopholes or flout the laws entirely. This will prove difficult because MN has some of the strongest election laws in the country, yet in a race that has been so close in the past, the edge could make a difference.

 

[Don Roley]

Anyone open- minded enough to read the following?

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/03/kennedy/index_np.html

In Rolling Stone, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. argues that new evidence proves that Bush stole the election. But the evidence he cites isn't new and his argument is filled with distortions and blatant omissions.

 

[Makalakumu]

Anyone open- minded enough to read the following?

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/03/kennedy/index_np.html

Sigh. This article features a number of sources, when it even cites sources for its claims, that have been thouroughly debunked in debate on this topic. See the previous threads on this issue.

It also does a great job in ignoring a number of Kennedy's strongest points entirely.

The bottom line is that the congressional report and the GAO report are the STRONGEST studies that have been done on the election thus far. And BOTH of those present a very strong case for fraud.

 

[Don Roley]

Sigh. This article features a number of sources, when it even cites sources for its claims, that have been thouroughly debunked in debate on this topic. See the previous threads on this issue.

It also does a great job in ignoring a number of Kennedy's strongest points entirely.

The bottom line is that the congressional report and the GAO report are the STRONGEST studies that have been done on the election thus far. And BOTH of those present a very strong case for fraud.

So, you are not going to deal with the issues, just tell us to ignore the man behind the curtain.

Kind of remember that tactic when you were telling us that the goverment was the one who bombed the twin towers. Don't argue with the sources you bring up and accept what we are told.

Have fun with the typical bashing. I can't change closed minds.

 

[Makalakumu]

So, you are not going to deal with the issues, just tell us to ignore the man behind the curtain.

Kind of remember that tactic when you were telling us that the goverment was the one who bombed the twin towers. Don't argue with the sources you bring up and accept what we are told.

Have fun with the typical bashing. I can't change closed minds.

The problem is that all the work has already been done and you don't care to check. I'll bet that you haven't read either the congressional report or the GAO report (or even Kennedy's article) on this matter. The strongest information out there points to fraud and all you need to do is look at it.

Don, I have personally debunked a number of these so-called "studies" and I sent my assertations to the "authors" and I have yet to receive any reply...

Some problems and questions...

Farhad relies primarily on Mark Lindeman, Elizabeth Liddle, and Mark Blumenthal. Here is a short piece that explains why these three wanna-be exit poll and election experts have never made a scientifically valid case:

http://uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/exit-polls/USCV_exit_poll_analysis.pdf

Here is an early rebuttal by Lindeman.
http://inside.bard.edu/~lindeman/doppresponse.pdf

and US Count Votes counter-rebuttal:
http://uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/exit-polls/ESI/Mark-Lindeman-Response.pdf

Everything that Lindeman writes needs to be checked against the source documents to prevent him from rewriting history. Farhad obviously did not do this.

Any professor with credentials in mathematics or statistics would agree with US Count Votes and not the wanna-be experts that Farhad trusts.

Why has no reputable scientific journal published Mitofsky's (and Election Science Institute's) bogus red shift/swing Ohio exit poll analysis?

Why has no reputable scientific journal has published any of Liddle or Lindeman's "distort and analyze" "exit poll response bias measures"?

Neither has any support in the scientific community - because they are mere sophistry.

No scientific theory is proven true until it can be independently replicated.

Why did Mitofsky not release the exit polling factors data that he claims shows that exit poll error caused the one-sided pro-Kerry discrepancies? (None of the exit polling factors data would violate voter anonymity, so there is no reason not to release it publicly.)

Why did Mitofsky not release sufficient data for a standard normal customary exit poll analysis for even one state (vote count data with small precincts blurred, corresponding exit poll data and sample sizes)? (Ron and I had to estimate the sample sizes from a sub-sample available at the Roper institute - with conservative assumptions.)

Why did Mitofsky present an entirely bogus analysis (the ESI analysis that is mathematical nonsense), and then not present ANY standard customary exit poll analysis accepted by statisticians for generations?

Farhad asks "Why didn't anyone protest the large exit poll discrepancy in the Clinton/Bush I race?"

Because NOT ENOUGH Votes were switched in the Clinton/Bush I election to CHANGE THE OUTCOME.

The Question to Ask Is: Why does anyone imagine that votes are counted accurately when the election industry is the only industry where no independent audits are performed to prevent insider manipulation?

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is another example of an informed reply...

http://susiemadrak.com/2006/06/05/09/27/just-the-facts-maam-2/

 

[Phoenix44]

I found the Rolling Stone article very disturbing. Not at all surprising, but disturbing. Equally disturbing was John Kerry's vow to "fight for every vote," but he didn't.

 

[TonyMac]

Skull and bones baby.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Very little has been done..

That is, of course, the primary problem I have with most so-called 'liberals' (or 'progessives' or whatever they want to call themselves these days. They complain about what (they claim) has been done but that's about the extent of it.

You know, if the "Evil Republicans" really stole the election ( without getting into multiplying demons on that issue) then there are *people* who did it. All organizations, including political parties, are just groups of people. Bring them up on charges. If even some of this stuff is true, there's enough there for some serious civil or criminal charges to be brought against specific people. That little to nothing has been done , other then to join n a chorus of self-pitying "woe is us, it's not fair" to a) prosecute those responsible and b) ensure that it doesn't happen again, makes me really question just how much the people saying this stuff *really* believe it themselves...or really care. Easier to just complain ( in a circle of everybody referencing each others complaints, as if by volume of self-agreement, 'truth' will be declared ), then to actually take steps to make sure it doesn't repeat (lest it be exposed that "your side" is the same as "their side"...nope, let's let the next time around be just the same so then we can keep the "moral highground" of fingerpointing alive)

Activists in the '60s burnt their draft cards in public displays of civil disobeience. 'Activists' today write blogs to each other. Hard to really taking the whining too seriously, not for what that is said but simply that those saying it have much conviction in it.

 

[Makalakumu]

Very little has been done..

That is, of course, the primary problem I have with most so-called 'liberals' (or 'progessives' or whatever they want to call themselves these days. They complain about what (they claim) has been done but that's about the extent of it.

Who controls all three levers of power in this country?

You know, if the "Evil Republicans" really stole the election ( without getting into multiplying demons on that issue) then there are *people* who did it. All organizations, including political parties, are just groups of people. Bring them up on charges. If even some of this stuff is true, there's enough there for some serious civil or criminal charges to be brought against specific people. That little to nothing has been done , other then to join n a chorus of self-pitying "woe is us, it's not fair" to a) prosecute those responsible and b) ensure that it doesn't happen again, makes me really question just how much the people saying this stuff *really* believe it themselves...or really care. Easier to just complain ( in a circle of everybody referencing each others complaints, as if by volume of self-agreement, 'truth' will be declared ), then to actually take steps to make sure it doesn't repeat (lest it be exposed that "your side" is the same as "their side"...nope, let's let the next time around be just the same so then we can keep the "moral highground" of fingerpointing alive)

From the perspective of one who is only listening to MSM sources, it would be easy to deduce this. However, there is a large cadre of people who really do care and are doing everything they can to not only bring the perpetrators to justice, but also to prevent this from happening again. Why don't you know about any of this? Perhaps you just haven't payed attention. Perhaps this issue isn't important to you.

Activists in the '60s burnt their draft cards in public displays of civil disobeience. 'Activists' today write blogs to each other. Hard to really taking the whining too seriously, not for what that is said but simply that those saying it have much conviction in it.

This paragraphs speaks volumes about how connected you are to this issue. If you think this is just a bunch of "whining on blogs" not only are you not paying attention, you clearly do not have a grasp on what is actually at stake. The bottom line is that this threatens our democracy and there are patriots who are hard a work trying to bring these issues to the forefront so that they can save some semblance of what the United States is supposed to be. If you are sitting back passively and watching the MSM then you are not going to get a clear picture of what is actually happening. All you have to do is look...

 

[FearlessFreep]

Who controls all three levers of power in this country?

Then *do* something about it...oh wait..you can't...because it's all under the control of the ER ('Evil Republicans'). Very convenient. A ready made excuse to avoid responsibility, culpability, or or consequence. To be able to claim 'majority' status and if reality doesn't match that at the voting booth, well you can just trot out the ready made vast ER conspiracy that keeps you down. Couldn't have been scripted better...or maye it was : )


From the perspective of one who is only listening to MSM sources, it would be easy to deduce this

The only MSM I follow is ESPN for baseball scores...(I'm assuming "Coast To Coast Live" doesn't count)

Most of what I *get* is from places like this, with characters like the posters here....


This paragraphs speaks volumes about how connected you are to this issue. If you think this is just a bunch of "whining on blogs" not only are you not paying attention,

..and reading what they reference. So if you keep marching out the same stuff that's been going for years (hey, how is the Vince Foster murder investigation going anyway? So many conspiracies...so little time...can't keep track of who's tinfoil is in place some days) *shrug* If that's what you think is important than what am I to think of what's important in the issue

However, there is a large cadre of people who really do care and are doing everything they can to not only bring the perpetrators to justice, but also to prevent this from happening again.

Then how about some posts to stories about the charges filed and the court cases in play and the sit-ins to keep illegally elected officials from taking office and the protests and marches against these goings on. *Real* action.

I admit though that your rhetorical question of "is there any hope for 2006" with no offering of anything to hope for tends to make me suspect your faith in those actions.

Why don't you know about any of this?

It must've slipped your mind : )

You claim to care..you post the whiners...to me that means that to those who care, the whining is what matters.

Perhaps this issue isn't important to you.

In one way, it isn't. My beliefs and what I hold dear and what is important to me in the type of person I am and how I relate to those around me matters depends precious little on the current form of government.

In another way, it isn't because it's woefully shortsighted. The Republicans, the Democrats, they are the same. Two sides of the same coin. It's not about 'liberal', it's not about 'conservative'. It's about 'power', it's about 'control' and 'ego'; all the rest is just convient labellling to try to convince people it actually matters if 'we' are the ones in control versus 'they', nut it doesn't. And too many people have their heads of their own partison rear-ends to realize that it still tastes the same not matter who's butt your kissing. Don't think for a moment that the Democrats haven't done, tried to do, or would jump at the chance to do *exactly* the same thing. (I actually sorta personally suspect the reason the Democrats are so upset about this is not that the Republicans did it but simply that, this time around, the Republicans did it *better*)

 

[FearlessFreep]

And an example

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20041215-112516-4569r.htm

Republicans in Washington state suspect Democrats, with 500 patronage jobs at risk, are cheating in what is now the unprecedented third counting of the 2,883,341 ballots cast in the Nov. 2 election for governor.
In the current hand recount, Democrats keep discovering untabulated ballots. The state's Republicans, who thought they had elected Dino Rossi as the first Republican governor in 20 years, are furious.
State Republican Party Chairman Chris Vance says he can't decide whether Democrat officials in heavily Democratic King County — where uncounted or improperly discarded ballots keep popping up — are "colossally incompetent or completely corrupt."

and kinda conglomeration of stuff from 2004 (prior to the election)
http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/cat_voter_fraud.html
Some funny stuff there

Actually, just google for "election cheating" and you'll find all sorts of fun stuff, from the conspiracy blog to actual news reports abut cheating from both sides of the 'two party' system

 

[Makalakumu]

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20041215-112516-4569r.htm

The ironic thing about this is that some of the first reports of voting maching tally errors that were moving votes to Republicans were reported in this state. So, what we have here is an election that was settled on who could steal the most votes. Wonderful...

Actually, just google for "election cheating" and you'll find all sorts of fun stuff, from the conspiracy blog to actual news reports abut cheating from both sides of the 'two party' system.

This, IMO, is a reason why your general run of the mill Republicans should be concerned about this issue. This door can swing both ways and in the end, everyone is affected.

That is why we need to...

a. Fully investigate and prosecute people who are doing things like this.
b. Reform our elections so this can't happen.

Thus far, its been mostly liberals who have comprised the grassroots movement to do this. The few Republicans who have gotten on the bandwagon are the ones who have seen the issue turn against them.

 

[Makalakumu]

Fearlessfreep

Here is an article you would appreciate...

Help Republicans Vote Act

1) Every wealthy Republican who hires illegal immigrants shall be stripped of his or her voting rights. This includes rich people who have similar names to said rich people.

2) Secretaries of state will be required to mandate their county boards of election that only one voting booth be available per Republican-dominant precinct. The booth will be moved from the usual polling places to street corners in a black or Latino urban neighborhoods.

3) One in every ten ballots will be displayed/printed in French and peppered with gay slang terms like "whitewash the back 40" and "kneeling at the altar". But in each election, ballots will include an initiative banning the French/gay slang ballots. So one in ten Republican voters will have to look at gay slang phrases and words in the French language in order to ban something that's both French and contains gay slang.

4) Touch screen voting machines will be owned and operated by George Soros.

5) Republican secretaries of state who double as Republican campaign chairs in swing states will be replaced by a member of The Flaming Lips or The Dixie Chicks.

6) The only mainstream media reporter who can call the winner of an election is Keith Olbermann.

7) Voter registrations from predominantly southern and midwestern Christian conservative districts will be considered invalid if they're not filed via a Blue Tooth touch screen inside a Toyota Prius.

Very tongue in cheek, but I think it makes a point...

The overall point being that this is an issue which ought to cross party lines. Like strengthening the executive branch or allowing preemptive war, we set a dangerous precedent for both sides of the political aisle by allowing this to continue without real accountability.

Fraud employed by Republicans today might be employed by Democrats tomorrow. Along the same line, we're all intellectually honest enough to agree that the validity of our democratic process is something that far outweighs the parties and individuals we might support or oppose. It just so happens that the most recent evidence of widespread and multifaceted election fraud in the history of our nation points to the victors of 2000, 2002, and 2004.

And all evidence points to that the Republican War Machine is poised to do the same in 2006 and 2008. How will the Dems respond? Perhaps they will find even better ways to cheat!