Republican Party Official Charged...More Evidence of Election Hijinks!

[Makalakumu]

As an addition to this thread...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20016

I would like to post the first example of a long line of examples to come.

Senior Republican charged in phone jamming plot

The Bush administration and the National RNC are working hard to hide the general election skullduggery...Even going so far as to have the Justice department interfere in the investigation.

Senators ask Ashcroft to let phone-jamming suit go forward

"Can you imagine the Republican outrage if the Democrats had been guilty of similar conduct? Does a party that refuses to tell the truth before Election Day deserve our vote on election day?"

The "win at all costs" attitude is undermining our Democracy. In my opinion, the public needs to decry this kind of stuff loudly and demand full independent investigation of all instances. People who do this stuff need to pay...

upnorthkyosa

 

[Feisty Mouse]

The "win at all costs" attitude is undermining our Democracy. In my opinion, the public needs to decry this kind of stuff loudly and demand full independent investigation of all instances. People who do this stuff need to pay...

Right on.

 

[loki09789]

The "win at all costs" attitude is undermining our Democracy. In my opinion, the public needs to decry this kind of stuff loudly and demand full independent investigation of all instances. People who do this stuff need to pay...

upnorthkyosa

So is this about 'justice,' 'revenge,' or 'punishment in your mind?

You mention that the request for a six month delay is an attempt to cover up such things, but here you have AP releases and USA today articles....so much of the cover up.

Another thing to consider. Is it possible that this official is a 'former' because the election is over and Bush is not running for office anymore? Could it also be 'former' because actions like this were not kosher with the Bush people?

By all means, expose the corruption, bring the bad guys to justice and find them guilty within the letter of the law...but what happened to 'innocent UNTIL proven guilty?'

I think the MAIN thing should always be about 'fixing the problem' so investigating these people and proving them guilty or not is a thing for the justice department.

What WE can do is to lobby, vote and support reforms in structure and systems that allow this type of thing to happen at all, regardless of party affiliation, otherwise it looks like torches and picks are marching in the night.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I don't yield to anybody in my contempt for the current Republican Party and my disgust at "our," President's policies, but it simply isn't the case that this sort of thing is something new in the annals of politics. You might want to read about the 1960 election, Mayor Daley of Chicago, and the--curious--way that the ballots got counted in Chicago. Or try Lyndon Johnson's--remarkable--political career in Texas.

The real problem isn't, "skulduggery." It's the corporate financing of campaigns, which is right out in the open; these illegalities are just sideshows.

 

[lvwhitebir]

I agree that it's "dirty politics" and should be tried in court. Beyond that I don't think it's that important because it happened in 2002 and only happened right before the election. I doubt at that point a voter's mind would be swayed by a phone call. But, it was still wrong if the report is correct.

WhiteBirch

 

[loki09789]

I don't yield to anybody in my contempt for the current Republican Party and my disgust at "our," President's policies, but it simply isn't the case that this sort of thing is something new in the annals of politics. You might want to read about the 1960 election, Mayor Daley of Chicago, and the--curious--way that the ballots got counted in Chicago. Or try Lyndon Johnson's--remarkable--political career in Texas.

The real problem isn't, "skulduggery." It's the corporate financing of campaigns, which is right out in the open; these illegalities are just sideshows.

I think Rmac has it in spades....it isn't new, and the reform that is necessary for reducing the reoccurance of such things has been sidelined by things like this. The way campaigns are funded, sponsored, supervised and the way voting is administered needs to be revamped IMO.

This isn't a 'party thing' as much as an institution thing.

 

[Ray]

I would like to post the first example of a long line of examples to come.

As the first example of: how bad Republicans are, of how bad Tobin is (he pled not guilty; but he may have done it), of how bad politicians are?

The "win at all costs" attitude is undermining our Democracy. In my opinion, the public needs to decry this kind of stuff loudly and demand full independent investigation of all instances. People who do this stuff need to pay...

I agree with you.

 

[Phoenix44]

Instead of pointing fingers, how about writing your Senator and Representative today telling them that you support the Count Every Vote Act of 2005 that will be introduced next week by Sens. Boxer and Clinton? (www.friendsofhillary.com)

I agree that the criminals of 2004 should be prosecuted--but the elections of 2006 and 2008 should be secure.

 

[Ray]

Instead of pointing fingers, how about writing your Senator and Representative today telling them that you support the Count Every Vote Act of 2005 that will be introduced next week by Sens. Boxer and Clinton? (www.friendsofhillary.com)

I can't find the text of the bill. Can you provide a link?

 

[Phoenix44]

The Boxer-Clinton bill hasn't been introduced yet. They plan to introduce it next week. Similar voter confidence bills, introduced in 2003, are S1980 and HR2239, which languished in committee.

 

[Ray]

The Boxer-Clinton bill hasn't been introduced yet. They plan to introduce it next week. Similar voter confidence bills, introduced in 2003, are S1980 and HR2239, which languished in committee.

Are you saying the text of the bill is unavailable? Are you recommending that we support a bill that we haven't read?

 

[Phoenix44]

Well, I did give you the website where you can check the provisions of the bill didn't I? And I did give you the reference numbers for the bills already introduced in Congress, and which are still alive, and which you can read and support if you prefer to support a bill already in Congress. And you could go to www.house.gov and www.senate.gov and write to your own elected representatives to tell them you support electoral reform, including for instance, a verifiable paper ballot wherever electronic machines are used; appropriate access to voting machines so that there are no 10-hour waits in certain minority precincts; and rules making it illegal for a high ranking official in any candidate's campaign to be responsible for counting the votes. Yes, that would be pro-active, wouldn't it? Or do I have to do all the homework?

 

[Makalakumu]

So is this about 'justice,' 'revenge,' or 'punishment in your mind?

Justice and fairness. People (and the candidates they work for) who use these kind of tactics deserve our contempt, not our votes.

You mention that the request for a six month delay is an attempt to cover up such things, but here you have AP releases and USA today articles....so much of the cover up.

This happened in 2002. We see this now, after Mr. Ashcroft is gone and Mr. Bush is reelected...

Another thing to consider. Is it possible that this official is a 'former' because the election is over and Bush is not running for office anymore? Could it also be 'former' because actions like this were not kosher with the Bush people?

Not likely. The Bush Family and Texas Election Culture is pretty much attuned to doing whatever it takes to win. Take a little look at Karl Rove...Poppy Bush hired him after he showed his extreme grasp of Machiavelli at his Alma Matar.

By all means, expose the corruption, bring the bad guys to justice and find them guilty within the letter of the law...but what happened to 'innocent UNTIL proven guilty?'

The point with this post is to point to a case that happened in 2002 and is just now springing into the light of "justice." The 2004 election came and went, and it seems as if "events" like this have multiplied exponentially. Why has it take so long?????

I think the MAIN thing should always be about 'fixing the problem' so investigating these people and proving them guilty or not is a thing for the justice department.

The Justice Department has shown its partisanship under Mr. Ashcroft. And, historically, it has shown a selective blind eye depending on the administration in power. How can you suggest that one rely on it?

What WE can do is to lobby, vote and support reforms in structure and systems that allow this type of thing to happen at all, regardless of party affiliation, otherwise it looks like torches and picks are marching in the night.

Sometimes it take Torches and Pitchforks...

I want to make a clear distinction. I believe that the Right has good ideas to bring to the political table. I am a fan of accountability, individuality, fiscal responsability, families, etc. I also am a fan of democracy and our current elected officials have continually shown contempt for this founding principle of our country. The people that should be mad, are the the people who are forced to vote for guys like this because of their ideology. They should demand better instead of sinking into complacency so that American can truly hold forth the torch of democracy.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't yield to anybody in my contempt for the current Republican Party and my disgust at "our," President's policies, but it simply isn't the case that this sort of thing is something new in the annals of politics. You might want to read about the 1960 election, Mayor Daley of Chicago, and the--curious--way that the ballots got counted in Chicago. Or try Lyndon Johnson's--remarkable--political career in Texas.

When something is bad in the past, it is still bad in the present. When one side does something dirty, it is still dirty when the other side does it. Why be complacent?

The real problem isn't, "skulduggery." It's the corporate financing of campaigns, which is right out in the open; these illegalities are just sideshows.

This is another issue, Robert. It is separate and very complicated. Corporate financing of elections wraps various elements of the Bill of Rights into it and the arguments get convoluted.

This is not that argument. This is about breaking the law. This is about dirty tricks. This is about outright suppression and oppression. We are talking about the low tech stuff that nasty little dictators do in the Third World. The stuff the UN decries. And then you start looking into the high tech stuff and you have to wonder how anyone could trust our process. 2004 was so bad and the problems were so widespread (and so ignored by the general public) that we may never have a "free" election again in this country.

Think about it, we live in a time where the activities described above are so commonplace that they are shrugged off by both sides as "normal". Why burn flags when freedom is so cheap?

 

[Makalakumu]

As the first example of: how bad Republicans are, of how bad Tobin is (he pled not guilty; but he may have done it), of how bad politicians are?

There is a growing movement in this country that is totally non-partisen and is completely sick of the BS that we pass of as elections in this country. The Every Vote Counts legislation, although proposed by Liberals, came from a variety of minds on the left and the right. We need to have fairness and we need to have every vote counted so that our voice can be heard.

Right now, its the Republicans who have gain the upper hand using these nasty tricks. In the past, it has been the Democrats. How many people have been washed out of the system? Is it any wonder why a large part of our country refuses to vote?

 

[loki09789]

1. Justice and fairness. People (and the candidates they work for) who use these kind of tactics deserve our contempt, not our votes.

2. This happened in 2002. We see this now, after Mr. Ashcroft is gone and Mr. Bush is reelected...

3. Not likely. The Bush Family and Texas Election Culture is pretty much attuned to doing whatever it takes to win. Take a little look at Karl Rove...Poppy Bush hired him after he showed his extreme grasp of Machiavelli at his Alma Matar.

4. The point with this post is to point to a case that happened in 2002 and is just now springing into the light of "justice." The 2004 election came and went, and it seems as if "events" like this have multiplied exponentially. Why has it take so long?????

5. The Justice Department has shown its partisanship under Mr. Ashcroft. And, historically, it has shown a selective blind eye depending on the administration in power. How can you suggest that one rely on it?

6. Sometimes it take Torches and Pitchforks...

7. I want to make a clear distinction. I believe that the Right has good ideas to bring to the political table. I am a fan of accountability, individuality, fiscal responsability, families, etc. I also am a fan of democracy and our current elected officials have continually shown contempt for this founding principle of our country. The people that should be mad, are the the people who are forced to vote for guys like this because of their ideology. They should demand better instead of sinking into complacency so that American can truly hold forth the torch of democracy.

1. If the goal is fairness, I haven't seen any commentary about what it would take to make the problems go away and create a 'fair' system...I have seen continuous and regular comments that demonize Bush and the Republican party though, so "justice" seems a little bit of a stretch. I remember a particular comment about Bush being the equivalent of a literal Demon (though the term escapes me at the moment).

2. So......what does that mean? Again, if the voting process was corrupted so clearly for you (a person with far less confidential access to info than the Democratic watch dogs AND the Justice department and others) why haven't any of the major news networks (which have already been discussed as simpy out of themselves and profit NOT cooperation with government) broken the story?

3. Do you realize how slanderous you sound at times for a person who thinks that 'violence is never right?' Verbal, reputation, physical...all are force that is applied.

4. I don't know, administrative red tape. The government was designed to be large, clunky and therefore difficult for one man to manipulate and take over...

5. So, back to #1 again and how is 'justice' going to be served to your satisfaction if the JUSTICE department can't be trusted?

6. Again, you claim in a personal philosophy that 'violence is never right' and then comments like this?

7. This is like saying, "Really I am a huge fan of healthy eating" as you chow down on a big mac right in front of the people. You have made six points, with two that are either slanderous or outright endorsement of vigalante justice, that don't really do anything but point fingers.

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, Well, Well...someone has a bee in his bonnet...

1. If the goal is fairness, I haven't seen any commentary about what it would take to make the problems go away and create a 'fair' system...I have seen continuous and regular comments that demonize Bush and the Republican party though, so "justice" seems a little bit of a stretch. I remember a particular comment about Bush being the equivalent of a literal Demon (though the term escapes me at the moment).

Yes, Justice, and an adherence to principles that make us who we are.

How can one talk about fairness when people are convinced that the status quo is fair...or maybe "good enough?"

Perhaps the reason you see regular comments from me (and others) is because of the regular and persistant abuse of power by said officials?

The "Bush Hater" label doesn't make these things go away. You need to actually let a little of this stuff sink in and accept it on a personal level. Accountablity?

2. So......what does that mean? Again, if the voting process was corrupted so clearly for you (a person with far less confidential access to info than the Democratic watch dogs AND the Justice department and others) why haven't any of the major news networks (which have already been discussed as simpy out of themselves and profit NOT cooperation with government) broken the story?

Note the Boldface - How would you know this? Loki - voting information is PUBLIC INFORMATION! There cannot be "secret information" about the voting process in a democracy.

Regarding the media...Why would you trust them? Do you know anything about how news is done now days? A "newsroom" at a major network now consists of a few people sitting behind computers reading press releases. To even call that a "newsroom" is an insult. The major networks devote zero time to investigative reporting. Zero. And then there is the fact that ALL news agencies are corporate entities subject to oversite by clandestine panels of "company officials". Controversial stories may reduce viewership and may upset one of the "company officials" to a point where the person who broke the story would lose his/her job. There are dozens of books out on this subject now. Each of them are well cited and include damning statements by some of these "company officials" on tape. But, according to your logic, this can't be true, because it didn't make the news...

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

3. Do you realize how slanderous you sound at times for a person who thinks that 'violence is never right?' Verbal, reputation, physical...all are force that is applied.

Take a look at the Biography "Fortunate Son" by James Hatfield. Read the prolouge of the new edition. Yeah, that's right, new edition. The old edition was burned after Mr. Rove and company made a few phone calls. Then take a look at what happened to Mr. Hatfield...that is after you read a taped and traced telephone conversation with Mr. Rove.

Also, stop and think before you type some thing like "...for a person who thinks that 'violence is never right..." How could I, as a martial artist, think this? Do you think that you may be putting words in my mouth?

4. I don't know, administrative red tape. The government was designed to be large, clunky and therefore difficult for one man to manipulate and take over...

Other, "more serious" cases with far more evidence and far more complicated arguments seem to get through the system just fine. This is stalling at its historical finest and its reminiscent of Hoover.

5. So, back to #1 again and how is 'justice' going to be served to your satisfaction if the JUSTICE department can't be trusted?

1. Form an independent commission filled with people on all sides that is hell bent on rooting out abuses by all sides.
2. Create nonpartisen public entities that take care of all election details including voting machines. Publish ALL information regarding this stuff in print and on the net.
3. Hold everone accountable for their actions, including the people that benefit knowingly or unknowingly. This may mean that some new elections need to be held.
4. Publish all information regarding such cases so that the public has the opportunity to know everything about the ways that people have been abusing their rights to vote.

6. Again, you claim in a personal philosophy that 'violence is never right' and then comments like this?

Some violence is also metaphorical...

7. This is like saying, "Really I am a huge fan of healthy eating" as you chow down on a big mac right in front of the people. You have made six points, with two that are either slanderous or outright endorsement of vigalante justice, that don't really do anything but point fingers.

None of the points are slanderous nor are they endorsements of vigalante justice. The first step of accountability is finger pointing. Look at us argue which way they point (despite the hard evidence provided)? How can we move on to further steps when we are like this?

 

[loki09789]

Well, Well, Well...someone has a bee in his bonnet...

1. Yes, Justice, and an adherence to principles that make us who we are.

How can one talk about fairness when people are convinced that the status quo is fair...or maybe "good enough?"

2. Perhaps the reason you see regular comments from me (and others) is because of the regular and persistant abuse of power by said officials?

3. The "Bush Hater" label doesn't make these things go away. You need to actually let a little of this stuff sink in and accept it on a personal level. Accountablity?

4. Note the Boldface - How would you know this? Loki - voting information is PUBLIC INFORMATION! There cannot be "secret information" about the voting process in a democracy.

5. Regarding the media...Why would you trust them?

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

6. Also, stop and think before you type some thing like "...for a person who thinks that 'violence is never right..." How could I, as a martial artist, think this? Do you think that you may be putting words in my mouth?

7. Other, "more serious" cases with far more evidence and far more complicated arguments seem to get through the system just fine. This is stalling at its historical finest and its reminiscent of Hoover.

8. Some violence is also metaphorical...

9. None of the points are slanderous nor are they endorsements of vigalante justice. The first step of accountability is finger pointing. Look at us argue which way they point (despite the hard evidence provided)? How can we move on to further steps when we are like this?

1. Who said status quo? I said focus on the reform and fix the problem instead of 'burn him at the stake.'

2. Our it could be because of a serious difference in political philosophy and a lack of REAL understanding of the philosophy and goals on the other side of the fence....if I am to keep an open mind about yours, shouldn't you as well about the long term goals of others?

3. Look above. If he/his adminstration have gone so far into corruption, why haven't we heard about impeachment? Disagreement does not mean 'demonize.'

4. Agreed, but that doesn't mean that you know all the details of the cases being compiled based on complaints (those would be confidential), or the decisions being made (and the reasons for them) in meetings and such. The results, the processes and such are public access, no doubt, but there are things like the REASONS and the amount of police calls that you are guessing or generalizing in the last thread - and some of the details in reports related to those incidents are not public accessible...see my point?

5. Well, that was MY point when I made the media comment. WHen it serves your purpose, they are a wealth of substantiation for you, yet we can't believe everything we get from the media?

6. Nope, I am not.

"In fact, violence in general, will probably backfire...as it usually does." And that isn't even the best quote I could find, just the one that came up first to illustrate my point. Putting words in your mouth? I don't think so.

7. far more evidence.....hmmmmm.

8. Violence as metaphor for what? I don't see what you are getting at.

9. So saying that sometimes it takes pitchforks and torches (as a metaphor for a lynch mob, which is the embodiment of vigilante justice) isn't endorsing vigilatism?

The first step of accountabilty is a system that actually works well NOT finger pointing. If there is corruption loop holes, practices that let skullduggery to occur so easily then it needs to be reformed.

Finger pointing is the beginning of blame, not accountability.

 

[lvwhitebir]

As an aside, what law was broken because they called a phone number or several numbers a bunch of times? I think it's definitely dirty politics, but was it unlawful?

Unfortunately dirty politics is a part of the game. Every year people cry out for a "clean" race, but it always get messy and personal the closer we get to the vote. So many slanderous stories and alegations are thrown about just before an election, only to be found false or misleading afterwards. Unfortunately, every side seems to do their own mud-slinging so you can't say just don't vote for "them."

WhiteBirch

 

[loki09789]

Unfortunately, every side seems to do their own mud-slinging so you can't say just don't vote for "them."

WhiteBirch

Besides which, people change parties/affiliations to keep themselves in the business of politics all the time NOT just because they really buy into the philosophical stance of that party. You loose your backing in the Democratic party...rally support in another party and jump on board so that you can keep your political career alive and running.

Your idea that it is more than just 'don't vote for them' is so true. Endorse a system of voting and campaign practices that hold people accountable and reduce the chance of these games...but how do you do that without 'infringing on their 1st Amendment rights?' comes to mind as the problem.