I think I may have found my answer (regarding rank)

[skribs]

Well guys, it's been many threads, but I think I've found my answer. It's a combination of a lot of ideas, but also something different of its own. The question was: how do I, as a 3rd degree black belt in KKW Taekwondo, open a school where my student's ceiling isn't a 2nd degree unaffiliated black belt that they got in 3ish years. And I think I've found it.

There are two major changes I would make to my older plans:

1. Remove any degrees after black belt (and call myself "black belt" instead of "3rd degree black belt").
2. Stretch out the timing so that a black belt is a 5-8 year minimum instead of a 2-year minimum.

This system would have the following benefits:

• Moving from "3rd degree black belt" to "black belt" isn't a self-promotion.
• I have more experience than the black belt requires in this system.
• If I also offer a BJJ class (either when I get good at BJJ, or if I bring in another coach) they are less likely to scoff at a belt system that gives kids a black belt in a few years of training.
• If at some point my black belts decide that we should have ranks beyond black belts, this would be a quorum of people with an 8-year degree instead of with a 3-year degree.

This system may be used with my currently planned curriculum, just with some changes to how I approach it. As an example:

Time	Old Belt Color	New Belt Color
0-6 months	White and Yellow	White
6-12 months	Purple and Orange	Yellow
1-2 years	Green, Blue, Brown, and Red	Purple and Orange
2-3 years	1st Degree	Green
3-5 years	2nd Degree	Blue and half of Brown
5-8 years	3rd Degree	Finish brown and red

I would need to change a few other details, but this is the general idea. Also note these are minimum times and not a guarantee.

I am also considering more drastic changes. My currently planned class structure is based around the school I attended. Core classes during the week that cover a sampler of what Taekwondo has to offer (essentially split between forms, sparring, and self-defense), and then classes/clubs on the weekend to cover core requirements (make-up class or testing prep), sparring club, self-defense club, and demonstration team.

What I'm thinking now is more of an a la carte system. In this system, I would have a sparring/kicking class, a self-defense class, and a demonstration club. The sparring/kicking class I'd simply have beginner, intermediate, and advanced (the biggest difference is that Advanced can do headshots). Belts would be assigned when we sign up for tournaments (based on responses in the General thread). The self-defense class probably wouldn't even have rank. And then I could use the rank structure I mention above for demo team.

The advantage of this a la carte system is that folks could focus on what they want to focus on. It also would allow folks to come in from outside with very little tribal knowledge or requirement to memorize my curriculum, so I could plug-and-play coaches (similar to how I've seen things work in my BJJ class).

I'm not 100% sold on going a la carte. But it does seem like it might be the way to go.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Well guys, it's been many threads, but I think I've found my answer. It's a combination of a lot of ideas, but also something different of its own. The question was: how do I, as a 3rd degree black belt in KKW Taekwondo, open a school where my student's ceiling isn't a 2nd degree unaffiliated black belt that they got in 3ish years. And I think I've found it.

There are two major changes I would make to my older plans:

1. Remove any degrees after black belt (and call myself "black belt" instead of "3rd degree black belt").
2. Stretch out the timing so that a black belt is a 5-8 year minimum instead of a 2-year minimum.

This system would have the following benefits:

• Moving from "3rd degree black belt" to "black belt" isn't a self-promotion.
• I have more experience than the black belt requires in this system.
• If I also offer a BJJ class (either when I get good at BJJ, or if I bring in another coach) they are less likely to scoff at a belt system that gives kids a black belt in a few years of training.
• If at some point my black belts decide that we should have ranks beyond black belts, this would be a quorum of people with an 8-year degree instead of with a 3-year degree.

This system may be used with my currently planned curriculum, just with some changes to how I approach it. As an example:

Time	Old Belt Color	New Belt Color
0-6 months	White and Yellow	White
6-12 months	Purple and Orange	Yellow
1-2 years	Green, Blue, Brown, and Red	Purple and Orange
2-3 years	1st Degree	Green
3-5 years	2nd Degree	Blue and half of Brown
5-8 years	3rd Degree	Finish brown and red

I would need to change a few other details, but this is the general idea. Also note these are minimum times and not a guarantee.

I am also considering more drastic changes. My currently planned class structure is based around the school I attended. Core classes during the week that cover a sampler of what Taekwondo has to offer (essentially split between forms, sparring, and self-defense), and then classes/clubs on the weekend to cover core requirements (make-up class or testing prep), sparring club, self-defense club, and demonstration team.

What I'm thinking now is more of an a la carte system. In this system, I would have a sparring/kicking class, a self-defense class, and a demonstration club. The sparring/kicking class I'd simply have beginner, intermediate, and advanced (the biggest difference is that Advanced can do headshots). Belts would be assigned when we sign up for tournaments (based on responses in the General thread). The self-defense class probably wouldn't even have rank. And then I could use the rank structure I mention above for demo team.

The advantage of this a la carte system is that folks could focus on what they want to focus on. It also would allow folks to come in from outside with very little tribal knowledge or requirement to memorize my curriculum, so I could plug-and-play coaches (similar to how I've seen things work in my BJJ class).

I'm not 100% sold on going a la carte. But it does seem like it might be the way to go.

Is this under the KKW system, or would a black belt be under your own system exclusively? If it is under KKW, that's a long time for BB.

 

[Hot Lunch]

And I think I've found it.

There are two major changes I would make to my older plans:

1. Remove any degrees after black belt (and call myself "black belt" instead of "3rd degree black belt").
2. Stretch out the timing so that a black belt is a 5-8 year minimum instead of a 2-year minimum.

This system would have the following benefits:

• Moving from "3rd degree black belt" to "black belt" isn't a self-promotion.
• I have more experience than the black belt requires in this system.
• If I also offer a BJJ class (either when I get good at BJJ, or if I bring in another coach) they are less likely to scoff at a belt system that gives kids a black belt in a few years of training.
• If at some point my black belts decide that we should have ranks beyond black belts, this would be a quorum of people with an 8-year degree instead of with a 3-year degree.

My feelings on non-affiliation aside, just two things:

1. Most people who've never trained in martial arts are aware that black belts have "degrees." Are you concerned about them finding it odd that your school doesn't have that?

2. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see anything wrong with your school awarding black belt in two years if that's the norm in the particular art.

 

[skribs]

Is this under the KKW system, or would a black belt be under your own system exclusively? If it is under KKW, that's a long time for BB.

My own.

My feelings on non-affiliation aside, just two things:

Uh....I think you forgot to make a post here.

 

[J. Pickard]

If you offer a good program and do a good job at teaching it, nobody beyond kids will care about the belts. The "legitimacy" of a black belt is, in my opinion a slipper slope to begin with. Who determines which organization is more or less legitimate? Given that early karate, and I believe judo, only had 5 dans and then for some reason there were 10. Some systems have 12 dans, and I believe bujinkan has 15. The highest dan rank any TKD master had before the unification was a 4th dan but then suddenly the Kwan heads have 9th and 10th dans. In reality it's all pretty arbitrary, just teach a good program and you'll be good.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Given that early karate, and I believe judo, only had 5 dans and then for some reason there were 10.

Does anybody know how this came about, or at least some educated guesses? The time this happened would be around 1935-1950.

 

[J. Pickard]

Does anybody know how this came about, or at least some educated guesses? The time this happened would be around 1935-1950.

I am also curious as to why this happened. My guess, given the time it likely happened, is that it has a lot to do with nationalism post WW2. But that's just a guess.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Does anybody know how this came about, or at least some educated guesses? The time this happened would be around 1935-1950.

General Choi Chose 10 Gups and 9 Dans with supposedly the numeral 3 having some cultural significance and "9" being 3 x 3 and 9 being the highest single digit number and 10 being the lowest 2 digit number.

 

[bluepanther2]

I have also often wondered when and how the black belt ranks were moved from 5th Dan up to 9th or 10th Dan. Did Shotokan do this prior to the Koreans, or did they do this in response to the higher Dan grades the Koreans promoted? I think a history of Dan grades would be very interesting.

And if you are using a black belt as your highest level that is just jiving with what Kano did. He used just white and black belts. However, did he develop Dan grades above black belt or did Karate do that? And when did the Okinawans adopt the belt system? It was after the Japanese did so.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I have also often wondered when and how the black belt ranks were moved from 5th Dan up to 9th or 10th Dan. Did Shotokan do this prior to the Koreans, or did they do this in response to the higher Dan grades the Koreans promoted?

Other styles of karate had 10 dan grades before Shotokan did. Shotokan retained 5 because Gichin Funakosi was a Godan, and the logic is that no Shotokan karateka can be higher than Funakoshi. To justify 10 dan grades, JKA posthumously promoted Funakoshi to Judan.

I think a history of Dan grades would be very interesting.

And if you are using a black belt as your highest level that is just jiving with what Kano did. He used just white and black belts. However, did he develop Dan grades above black belt or did Karate do that? And when did the Okinawans adopt the belt system? It was after the Japanese did so.

My understanding is that the Japanese "reintroduced" karate back to the Okinawans in the 1950's, though I haven't reach much on the details of how that happened (I'm sure the information is out there).

I am kind of curious, however, as to why Shotokan never adopted by candy cane and red belts for the upper dan grades, since judo and other styles of karate use them. I'll never be a Nanadan in Shotokan, because I started pretty late in life. But if I was, and I was standing next to a Nanadan from another style that has candy cane belts for that rank, I'd like for us to look like we're the same rank.

 

[bluepanther2]

am kind of curious, however, as to why Shotokan never adopted by candy cane and red belts for the upper dan grades, since judo and other styles of karate use them.

This is a good point. Judo, a Japanese art uses the candy cane belt. So why would Okinawan karate adopt this belt before Shotokan would? Where did this candy cane belt begin? Was it with Judo or did it start when Karate was reintroduced back to Okinawa? Wonder what art and and at what rank this coral (red/white) belt was first given.

 

[isshinryuronin]

when did the Okinawans adopt the belt system? It was after the Japanese did so.

Funakoshi awarded the first karate blackbelts in 1924. As for the dan and kyu grades, Okinawa did not widely adopt them till after WWII. They did have some sort of "ranking" system prior called shogo which were instructor levels (not really ranks): renshi, kyoshi and hanshi. Miyagi was the first kyoshi in 1937.

My understanding is that the Japanese "reintroduced" karate back to the Okinawans in the 1950'

WHAT THE FK!!!!!!!! Where did you get this "understanding?" How can something in reintroduced if it never left in the first place?

 

[Hot Lunch]

WHAT THE FK!!!!!!!! Where did you get this "understanding?" How can something in reintroduced if it never left in the first place?

Notice I how I put the word "reintroduced" in quotations. The dogi, the kyu/dan rank system, and the structured environment of the modern dojo are all Japanese inventions that are now used in Okinawa.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Notice I how I put the word "reintroduced" in quotations. The dogi, the kyu/dan rank system, and the structured environment of the modern dojo are all Japanese inventions that are now used in Okinawa.

That is hardly reintroducing "karate." Just some external trappings Okinawa adopted to be more "mainline."

 

[Hot Lunch]

That is hardly reintroducing "karate." Just some external trappings Okinawa adopted to be more "mainline."

Once again, that's why the word "reintroduced" in quotations.

 

[bluepanther2]

Well guys, it's been many threads, but I think I've found my answer. It's a combination of a lot of ideas, but also something different of its own. The question was: how do I, as a 3rd degree black belt in KKW Taekwondo, open a school where my student's ceiling isn't a 2nd degree unaffiliated black belt that they got in 3ish years. And I think I've found it.

There are two major changes I would make to my older plans:

1. Remove any degrees after black belt (and call myself "black belt" instead of "3rd degree black belt").
2. Stretch out the timing so that a black belt is a 5-8 year minimum instead of a 2-year minimum.

This system would have the following benefits:

• Moving from "3rd degree black belt" to "black belt" isn't a self-promotion.
• I have more experience than the black belt requires in this system.
• If I also offer a BJJ class (either when I get good at BJJ, or if I bring in another coach) they are less likely to scoff at a belt system that gives kids a black belt in a few years of training.
• If at some point my black belts decide that we should have ranks beyond black belts, this would be a quorum of people with an 8-year degree instead of with a 3-year degree.

This system may be used with my currently planned curriculum, just with some changes to how I approach it. As an example:

Time	Old Belt Color	New Belt Color
0-6 months	White and Yellow	White
6-12 months	Purple and Orange	Yellow
1-2 years	Green, Blue, Brown, and Red	Purple and Orange
2-3 years	1st Degree	Green
3-5 years	2nd Degree	Blue and half of Brown
5-8 years	3rd Degree	Finish brown and red

I would need to change a few other details, but this is the general idea. Also note these are minimum times and not a guarantee.

I am also considering more drastic changes. My currently planned class structure is based around the school I attended. Core classes during the week that cover a sampler of what Taekwondo has to offer (essentially split between forms, sparring, and self-defense), and then classes/clubs on the weekend to cover core requirements (make-up class or testing prep), sparring club, self-defense club, and demonstration team.

What I'm thinking now is more of an a la carte system. In this system, I would have a sparring/kicking class, a self-defense class, and a demonstration club. The sparring/kicking class I'd simply have beginner, intermediate, and advanced (the biggest difference is that Advanced can do headshots). Belts would be assigned when we sign up for tournaments (based on responses in the General thread). The self-defense class probably wouldn't even have rank. And then I could use the rank structure I mention above for demo team.

The advantage of this a la carte system is that folks could focus on what they want to focus on. It also would allow folks to come in from outside with very little tribal knowledge or requirement to memorize my curriculum, so I could plug-and-play coaches (similar to how I've seen things work in my BJJ class).

I'm not 100% sold on going a la carte. But it does seem like it might be the way to go.

It seems as if you are enamored with the BJJ system and wish to make a Taekwondo system along the same philosophy as BJJ, such as a long time to attain black belt, therefore, black belt having a similar meaning as it does in BJJ. Sort of a Brazilian Taekwondo or BTD?

 

[Hot Lunch]

It seems as if you are enamored with the BJJ system and wish to make a Taekwondo system along the same philosophy as BJJ, such as a long time to attain black belt, therefore, black belt having a similar meaning as it does in BJJ. Sort of a Brazilian Taekwondo or BTD?

I've heard many people claim that their art should be "more like BJJ" in terms of belt rank promotion. I don't think that's necessary.

Even most non-martial artists know that a BJJ purple belt is a big deal.

You adopt a system similar to BJJ, and another belt color becomes the new black. This doesn't increase the prestige of the black belt. This is actually taking attention away from the black belt rather than adding to it, in my opinion.

 

[skribs]

It seems as if you are enamored with the BJJ system and wish to make a Taekwondo system along the same philosophy as BJJ, such as a long time to attain black belt, therefore, black belt having a similar meaning as it does in BJJ. Sort of a Brazilian Taekwondo or BTD?

Actually Brazilian Tae Do might make more sense, since the one class I'm thinking is most important to start with is the kicking class.

Edit: Or Brazilian Tae Jitsu.

 

[Earl Weiss]

WHAT THE FK!!!!!!!! Where did you get this "understanding?" How can something in reintroduced if it never left in the first place?

Were the Okinwan Ryus that predated Funakoshi's system referred to as Karate or simply by the name of their Ryu?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Were the Okinwan Ryus that predated Funakoshi's system referred to as Karate or simply by the name of their Ryu?

It was known as toudi/de, "Chinese hands" in the Okinawan language, or just "te" for short. The Japanese word, karate (with the same meaning) came into use in the early 20's (although I've seen sources that put it some years earlier, before it was really known in Japan. If true, it was little used.) The kanji character for "Chinese" was dropped in the early/mid 1930's " and changed to one meaning "empty" hands. However, the Okinawans mostly still used their word, toudi, for their art till after WWII and beyond.

Styles were mostly differentiated by the towns they were taught in, such as Shuri-te, Tomari-te and Naha-te. The idea of specific, unique styles came about in the 1930's as Shotokan (actually the name of Funakoshi's first dojo) and goju styles were named, followed by shorin and all the others.