I have to reprimend a student

[Manny]

Tonight I had to reprimand a student. This fellow ALWAYS come late to class to avoid crunches, we always start with crunches, in fact sambonim ask us (my students and I) to join his class at the end to do the crunches session and this man always comes late trying to avoid the crunches.

I must said this guy is too lazy and always complains about the exercises,etc. so tonight I could not resist anymore and when the student steped into the mat I put him on a corner and ask him to do the crunches and personaly supervised him to do all of them, I gave instructions to my other student to do his warm up while I was keeping an eye on this lazy guy. The class went cardio and I was behind this guy all the time.

At the end of the class I reprimend him and told him that I start the class at 8:30 pm sharp, and be late is a lack of courtesy, something I dislike alot, also told him everytime he come late trying to avoid crunches I will put him on the corner of the dojang and supervising him again and I dislike this cause I can't supervise the class as I liked.

Maybe I was to harsh but it really pisses me of the way this student behaves.

Manny

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Good on you manny. Students like this wouldnt show up to school or work late regularly, so showing up to the dojang late is a lack of respect toward his instructors and school. Give him 10 push ups for every minute late he is. Then he'll wish he got the crunches

 

[terryl965]

You did the right thing, being disrespectful is not the way of TKD

 

[msmitht]

Reprimanding an adult can be tricky. Overdue it and they will not want to come back. Then again, letting it slide is bad too. I usually tell the students " hurry up you are late" when they show up after class starts. If they apologize I say "That is O.K.. I am glad you made it" or "Better than not making it at all". If the problem persists then I speak to them privately as to not embarrass them and find out why they are late. Maybe there is a better class time for them to attend.
Riding them for an entire class can built resentment faster than poop travels through a goose and make them madder than a one legged waitress working at I Hop!

 

[TKD Scotland]

Everyone can be late once in a while, that's just part of life, but doing it repeatedly on purpose is unacceptable. Make him do 10 pushups and 5 suicides for every minute he is late, then politely remind him of the classes start time and the tenets of Taekwon-do.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In my dojo, our adult class has students in it who can't make it to the start of class, usually because of family or work situations. They come in late sometimes and we have already started our warmup calisthenics. The dojo rule is for them to bow in, take their place on the floor, and do 25 pushups, then join the class.

There are also those who from time to time are injured and cannot do certain exercises, so they are simply asked to do what they can do safely, and to do something else while the rest of the class does what they cannot. When my knee was injured for awhile, when we did warmup kicks, I practiced my down blocks and punches. When my knee got better, I went back to doing kicks with the rest of the class.

I also help sensei with the kids class on Monday nights. When they do calisthenics, some of them sandbag or are lazy. I try to encourage them to do more, I let them know that I'm aware they're not giving their best, and I praise them if they try a little harder each time.

One thing I learned in the military when I became an NCO is that you praise in public, but you criticize in private. People take criticism better when it is done face-to-face in a private setting and they don't feel they are being attacked or belittled or that they will lose face in front of their friends, it seems.

That's about all the advice I can share, hope you find it helpful!

 

[granfire]

Well, make class less predictable.

Put the crunches somewhere snug in the middle of class.

 

[Manny]

Thank you for all the replies, let me go backwards in time, if I recall I posted about this in the past, I really don't know why this guy behaves in such manner, once I asked to the students why they are taking TKD classes, one of them told me because it's a very nice work out and he wants to be in shape, the other guy (this lazy guy) never told me why, some time back I thought because he is owerwight and want to change this, however it seems his boy asked him to train TKD because the boy saw me training and he wants his dad to get healthier and drop some bacon and become a black belt.

Any how, I know there are sometimes when one can not arrive in time however this guy comes late on pourpose to avoid exercising, there have been times that I had to to knock-knock the dressing room's door to hurry him because he is too lazy or...... should I say too wise to skip warm up/stretching.

Sorry to tell you all this but he has never show comitment and he rarely shows a positive conduct about what he is doing.

I am a person who is overweight and who has some physical issues too however every time I show up to dojang I try to do my best, soemthing this guy's not.

Forgive me but, if this guy shows no comitment and lacks of respect I really don't understand why he shows up to dojang.

Why I reprimend him openly? because I felt I was right.

Manny

 

[Manny]

One thing more, when I arrive late I always bow to my sambonim and ask permition to enter the class and the firsth thing I do is to do my own warm up and stretching and as quick as I can I join the class, I never slow down the class, the sambonim knows he does not need to hurry me up, he leave in the corner doing my exercises and then I join class.

Even when I feel I can't take it anylonger, sambonim pushes me (in a polite way) and this always give the strength to finish the work with a big smile.

The way of thinking in Ji Do Kwan is..... for every 7 times I go to the floor, 8 times I have to stand up, this is called character.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

...I really don't understand why he shows up to dojang.

This is important for you to find out. The better you understand your student the better you will be able to choose the best way to deal with him.

Why I reprimend him openly? because I felt I was right.

Manny

It sounds to me more like you reprimanded him openly because you were frustrated.

Either way, you will get to see whether your way of handling it improves his behavior.

 

[StudentCarl]

...the sambonim knows he does not need to hurry me up...

Your sabonim knows you and your goals...

Even when I feel I can't take it anylonger, sambonim pushes me (in a polite way) and this always give the strength to finish the work with a big smile.
Manny

...so he knows the best way to get the most from you.

 

[wayneshin]

You probably should have had a private discussion with him first to determine if there was a genuine reason why he was so often late. as an adult he may also have a reason (genuine or otherwise) why he is avoiding crunches - in this case he should have approached you.

 

[Master Dan]

In general I think showing up late all the time is a problem that has to be dealt with. It is disrespect and disrupts the flow and energy of the class. We have between 30 to 45 minutes of open practice which is multi level to self help beginers and intermediate. Formal class time starts is very specific. We require minimum 3 days a week and you must call in and have an excuse in going to be late or you get charged and penalized.

We have also stoped just leting anyone join or groups of students with out first reading the training agreement commitment and we don't like or excuse time off for other sports especially for lower rank below black belt. You have four other days to pursue that but we will not allow you to let your TKD training suffer or fall behind becasue it effects the group and your training partner. After a person becomes advanced and it does not effect thier advancement or activities of the group they can have other sports conflict on a limited basis. Dosn't matter 8 years old or 80 we want only dedicated students all rest need not apply.

I think the best way to do this is in the begining but how about parents that consistantly drop off thier kids late? I work with them best I can but at some point the student suffers falling behind, not allowed to test or has to do push ups when entering because that is the Dojang rule for everyone and they eventually get the parent in line or quit?

Students need to understand that payment or not entitles them to enter the do giving thier best effort while there earns the privilaged of truly learning something.

Do any of you get out and explain the WTF Rank Advancement form?? you have to have a minimum of 60 out of a 100 possible points and 30% of your grade is based on attendance and attitude? This is a very serious thing and is just as important as feet and hands?

you did the right thing possibly you can afford to avoid this in the future by being selective in who you train and in oreintation in the begining so you don't have to deal with it later.

 

[jks9199]

You probably should have had a private discussion with him first to determine if there was a genuine reason why he was so often late. as an adult he may also have a reason (genuine or otherwise) why he is avoiding crunches - in this case he should have approached you.

I'm sorry -- but it seems like those discussions have probably already happened.

Manny's describing a characteristic of the person and his behavior, not an occasional problem. I agree that public shaming isn't necessarily the best way to motivate people in general -- but there's a time and place for it.

 

[Kacey]

In my class, students who are late to class have to do push-ups, or they can't join class. Exceptions are made for things like bad weather, or when kids are late because of their parents; it's not like the average 12 year-old can come alone. In his case, I'd make it crunches, or he can't join class.

I have a student who consistently showed up late to avoid warm-ups; he doesn't like calisthenics, and the calisthenics done at the back of the room when a student is late is self-directed, and easy to fudge. If he's more than 5 minutes late to class, he's not allowed to participate at all that night (which, incidentally, is a general policy at the Y where I teach, so it's pretty easy to enforce). The problem resolved itself pretty quickly after that. Every so often he tries it again, and every time I won't let him in - that generally solves it for weeks, often months, at a time.

It sounds harsh, but if students can't make it to class on time regularly (95%+ of the time) then something is lacking in their discipline - and that's a problem for all areas of martial arts.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Tonight I had to reprimand a student. This fellow ALWAYS come late to class to avoid crunches,...

I'll take a different tact than everyone else, playing devil's advocate to some extent. You didn't HAVE to reprimand him, you chose to.

If you were a cook, would you reprimand someone who always ordered the hamburger and fries and never ate the pickle? Would you say it was disrespectful?

The guy pays his tuition, and doesn't like crunches, just like the guy who doesn't like the pickle. If you feel insulted, that's the way you choose to look at it.

 

[andyjeffries]

I'll take a different tact than everyone else, playing devil's advocate to some extent. You didn't HAVE to reprimand him, you chose to.

If you were a cook, would you reprimand someone who always ordered the hamburger and fries and never ate the pickle? Would you say it was disrespectful?

The guy pays his tuition, and doesn't like crunches, just like the guy who doesn't like the pickle. If you feel insulted, that's the way you choose to look at it.

I know you're doing this just to play the other side but I'll respond anyway.

I think the analogy doesn't work with this situation in the same way it doesn't work in most sports or as another analogy, education*.

* education may be a difficult one to explain as I come from the UK and we have a different educational system.

Over here, at the age of 13 you choose which subjects to choose to complete at the age of 16. Once you've chosen (like choosing which martial art to do) you have to do the entire curriculum as chosen by the teacher. You can't decide to not do parts of it and expect to pass the course.

Someone pays for the course (normally the government, but at private schools the parent) but that doesn't mean they are a fully free consumer to make their own choices about content.

In fact, to use your burger analogy, over here it was't that long ago that asking for a burger without gherkin (what you US-ers call pickle, that means something else in the UK - like a relish) was seen as awkward. Burger King really started letting people go down that route of letting people choose with a major ad campaign and slogan "You want it your way, you got it at BK". Anyway, that's an aside.

I think Martial Arts (or any sport where there is a test/qualification process) are different in that you must do the curriculum as specified by your instructor. As an example, at our club, students at 10th and 9th geup are tested on press-ups for their first two tests. I think this sets a good tone - exercise is part of this martial art and you need to do it.

If you can't do something because of injury or other physical limitation, fine - but laziness is not an excuse...

 

[Bruno@MT]

I'll take a different tact than everyone else, playing devil's advocate to some extent. You didn't HAVE to reprimand him, you chose to.

If you were a cook, would you reprimand someone who always ordered the hamburger and fries and never ate the pickle? Would you say it was disrespectful?

The guy pays his tuition, and doesn't like crunches, just like the guy who doesn't like the pickle. If you feel insulted, that's the way you choose to look at it.

You are not the boss in the student - teacher relationship.
The teacher is. You pay for the privilege of tuition, not for being able to pick and choose.
If your ego is getting in the way of your training, the teacher is right in trying to correct that.

He is giving you what you need, not necessarily what you want. If you think you know better than the teacher, then you are not wanting to learn. I don't know if Korean arts are different (I suspect not) but in Japanese systems there is only 1 possible answer and that is 'Hai sensei'.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Personally I think Manny did the right thing. After the personal approach, he has put his student on the spot in public. And perhaps he will quit. If that happens, it won't be because of what Manny did. It will be because he was forced to choose between his ego and accepting the rules of the dojo (dojang).

If he chooses MA, Manny will have another good student. If he chooses his ego, Manny will have gotten rid of one rotten apple. That's a win-win situation.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Personally I think Manny did the right thing. After the personal approach, he has put his student on the spot in public. And perhaps he will quit. If that happens, it won't be because of what Manny did. It will be because he was forced to choose between his ego and accepting the rules of the dojo (dojang).

If he chooses MA, Manny will have another good student. If he chooses his ego, Manny will have gotten rid of one rotten apple. That's a win-win situation.

I agree wholeheartedly with that. Dojangs have rules, no different from many other things in life. If they dont want to play by the rules and leave it is not a bad thing.