I'm all for equal rights when it comes to beliefs, but these guys make it hard.
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I can't believe some of the stuff he says
- Thread starter Ken Morgan
- Start date
Thanks for posting that video. I don't have a problem with the guy in terms of what he said. He seems to be consistent with his beliefs.
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Malleus
Orange Belt
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Interesting. I wasn't particuarly offended by anything he said (but I'm not British), mainly because he seemed to be offering it as an alternative, rather than ranting and raving demanding x, y or z. That said, I agree with none of his ideas that I can recall, and I don't particuarly see any chance of his aspirations coming to pass.
I suppose everyone's entitled to their beliefs, and he voiced them relatively respectfully. If he was threatening violence or being blatantly offensive to people then I'd be a bit harsher.
I suppose everyone's entitled to their beliefs, and he voiced them relatively respectfully. If he was threatening violence or being blatantly offensive to people then I'd be a bit harsher.
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When he was asked about protesting the Iraq war, I suspect his comment was taken out of context - "Every Muslim has a right to defend his life and property." How is this linked to his disagreeing with Britons protesting the war? The editor cut him off pretty quickly on that one. I think it would have been interesting.
Based solely on five and a half minutes of interview, I respect the guy. I think his agenda is totally unrealistic, but he seems sincere in wanting to craft a better world as he understands it. (Which all any of us can do.) And he is clearly intelligent and articulate, which goes a long way in my book.
Based solely on five and a half minutes of interview, I respect the guy. I think his agenda is totally unrealistic, but he seems sincere in wanting to craft a better world as he understands it. (Which all any of us can do.) And he is clearly intelligent and articulate, which goes a long way in my book.
CoryKS
Senior Master
I don't think his agenda is far-fetched at all, considering that he and his co-religionists are firmly and deeply committed to it, which is a hell of a lot more than you can say about those he is trying to subjugate.
I mean, what? We're talking about respecting the guy because he's articulate? Do you know what the penalty is for homosexuality is under shari'a? It ain't prom cancellation. Yet the members of that school were ignorant hate-filled bigots while this guy gets a pass. I guess the trick is to talk calmly and slowly so you don't realize he's calling for your death.
"I don't believe in the concept of freedom of expression. I don't believe in democracy. I don't believe in secularism or liberalism."
Respect him? I respect him enough to believe he means exactly what he says, and to believe that, at the very least, he should be removed to a country that better fits his beliefs and not be allowed to return.
Someone please - please - tell me what it is. Why is it that every. single. thing. that a Christian does, no matter how innocuous, can be explained by ignorance, racism, or hatred, but when these guys come on the air and tell you in no uncertain terms that everything you are is evil and must be fixed or done away with, everybody is okay with that? I just don't understand.
I mean, what? We're talking about respecting the guy because he's articulate? Do you know what the penalty is for homosexuality is under shari'a? It ain't prom cancellation. Yet the members of that school were ignorant hate-filled bigots while this guy gets a pass. I guess the trick is to talk calmly and slowly so you don't realize he's calling for your death.
"I don't believe in the concept of freedom of expression. I don't believe in democracy. I don't believe in secularism or liberalism."
Respect him? I respect him enough to believe he means exactly what he says, and to believe that, at the very least, he should be removed to a country that better fits his beliefs and not be allowed to return.
Someone please - please - tell me what it is. Why is it that every. single. thing. that a Christian does, no matter how innocuous, can be explained by ignorance, racism, or hatred, but when these guys come on the air and tell you in no uncertain terms that everything you are is evil and must be fixed or done away with, everybody is okay with that? I just don't understand.
1. Ignorance. Quick: define "Islamist" and "caliphate" off the top of your head. No fair googling or using any other reference material.
2. An extension of the concept of intimate violence. Are Christians decried as ignorant/racist/hatred for the same reasons that a woman is more likely to face violence from a partner known to her than a stranger? The attackers go after the familiar?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
I dislike all extremism equally.
Islamic or Christian or Sikh or Hindu or whatever. The small extremist minority in all of the religions taints everyone.
What we need are the moderates from all religions to stand up to their nuttier counterparts.
I think the reason the christians get it more, is because they are here.
Islamic or Christian or Sikh or Hindu or whatever. The small extremist minority in all of the religions taints everyone.
What we need are the moderates from all religions to stand up to their nuttier counterparts.
I think the reason the christians get it more, is because they are here.
CoryKS
Senior Master
Good point. Maybe it's the devil they know? Or maybe they go after the weak. Like the saying about how animal rights activists target old white women wearing furs because they're easier prey than bikers wearing leather.
I'm not OK with any of the things he wants. However, in a free society, he's allowed to hold those beliefs, and in a Democratic Republic, he's allowed to attempt to vote for candidates that support his beliefs. If he can get a majority, then he gets his way. As someone else said, I don't think he has a chance in hell of that happening, and I'm pretty happy about that. But I have no problem with him exercising the same rights you and I have in the same manner we do (I realize he's in the UK and not the US, some rights may be different).
Freedoms are not defined by the middle. Freedoms are defined at the fringes. Where you draw the line is where freedom ends. It has to end somewhere, but I like keeping freedoms pushed as far out as possible. That means people like this, and neo-Nazis, and Klan members, and Black Panthers and yadda yadda yadda all get to express themselves and vote for people who reflect their agenda. It's how free societies work.
Extremists get the same rights as everybody else. As long as they operate within the framework of the law, they get to say whatever they wish, do whatever they wish, attempt to reorganize society as they wish. If they can convince enough people of the correctness of their particular extremist viewpoint, they win. I trust society not to choose the extremist viewpoint over freedom; I have to. Otherwise I have to admit that freedom is not strong enough to stand up to an extremist viewpoint; then we get no freedom at all.
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Apparently the Explaination is here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1282050&postcount=41
OP
- Thread Starter
- #12
Agreed. In a free society they have the right, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with them.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Jesus, this line of argument is so whiny. Who actually said they agreed with the guy? Who ever said Muslim extremism is just fine while Christian extremism is not? Is anyone who actually advances this argument listening to what the target of their criticism actually says?
The whole "we are so oppressed routine, you hate Christians and love Muslims" is a massive pile of projection and fail.
Right. I know I still live in a free society when the most hateful groups can still spew their filth as they wish. As long as their rights are protected, so are mine.
This is an eternal battle; IMHO, many people who defend the vague and general idea of 'free speech' do not think of it in terms of things they don't agree with or don't want to hear. Many people want to carve out 'exceptions' that as they see it should not be protected as free speech. AM Talk Radio, Fred Phelps, MOVEON, etc. Very few see that an attack of anyone's freedom of expression is an attack on our freedoms in general.
That is a wonderfully elegant and powerful turn of phrase there, Bill. I utterly agree and intend to steal the use of your words at my next available opportunity too
.
blindsage
Master of Arts
There are a number of inconsistencies in his statements. He says he doesn't believe in democracy, but talk to any Sunni about why Shi'ism is incorrect and they will engage in the superiority of a communal decision making process for determining a leader over a hereditary one.
You can call for the instituting of shari'a, but then who leads and makes legal decisions? If you devolve to a Caliph, then you do have a de facto monarchy (and it was in every case in the past except possibly, semantically, the Rashidun). Plus you would be attempting to recreate a position and system of government that hasn't existed in long, long time. If you devolve authority to the imams, by what guarantee do you have of a lack of corruption? Imams are by no standard considered infallible or even uncorruptable, and they can have binding legal decision that completely contradict one another specifically because there is no authority higher (except possibly the Caliph), to appeal to. I have had this conversation with Muslim friends and they generally have no answer to the question of checks and balances to prevent abuse and corruption under a proposed Islamic system.
I have no desire to live under shari'a or a Caliph or a state run by imams, please count me out.
At the same time, they have every right to their own opinions and ideas.
As for why Christians get more **** that Muslims, they don't. Different criticisms for different contexts. There is plenty of ignorant hate speech to go around . At the same time Christians may appear to get more criticism, in some peoples eyes, than others because Christianity is such a large part of our culture and the questioning, rebellious part of the American psyche finds it difficult to accept when the pot calls the kettle black.
You can call for the instituting of shari'a, but then who leads and makes legal decisions? If you devolve to a Caliph, then you do have a de facto monarchy (and it was in every case in the past except possibly, semantically, the Rashidun). Plus you would be attempting to recreate a position and system of government that hasn't existed in long, long time. If you devolve authority to the imams, by what guarantee do you have of a lack of corruption? Imams are by no standard considered infallible or even uncorruptable, and they can have binding legal decision that completely contradict one another specifically because there is no authority higher (except possibly the Caliph), to appeal to. I have had this conversation with Muslim friends and they generally have no answer to the question of checks and balances to prevent abuse and corruption under a proposed Islamic system.
I have no desire to live under shari'a or a Caliph or a state run by imams, please count me out.
At the same time, they have every right to their own opinions and ideas.
As for why Christians get more **** that Muslims, they don't. Different criticisms for different contexts. There is plenty of ignorant hate speech to go around . At the same time Christians may appear to get more criticism, in some peoples eyes, than others because Christianity is such a large part of our culture and the questioning, rebellious part of the American psyche finds it difficult to accept when the pot calls the kettle black.
The West needs to see more of guys like this. Here is an intelligent, articulate, well-spoken man, who matter of factly esposes the destruction of what we all hold dear, and the subjucation of the world to Islam.
It's time the West wakes the f**k up to what Islam wants.
It's time the West wakes the f**k up to what Islam wants.
I agree with you about what this man wants; and he makes it clear.
Now, please tell me how you know "what Islam wants" based on his interview.
He is not the only one saying essentially the same thing.
We already had an attempt to allow shari'a for civil matter in Ontario.
The large Muslim immigration in Europe, along with the intollerance displayed by those who don't agree with them.
The man was right on one point, there is a war between cultures going on, and so far it seems only one side sees it.
We already had an attempt to allow shari'a for civil matter in Ontario.
The large Muslim immigration in Europe, along with the intollerance displayed by those who don't agree with them.
The man was right on one point, there is a war between cultures going on, and so far it seems only one side sees it.
1.2 billion Muslims live on this planet. If they all wanted Sharia law, they'd have it. There are certainly Muslims who want what he wants, just as there are Christians who likewise want to live in a theocracy. They don't speak for me, why would I assume this man speaks for "all Islam?"
In any case, say you're right. What do you propose we do
about it? You speak of our inability to see the problem; OK, so what is the solution?
