Hybrid Arts

[wckf92]

Isn't Krav Maga a 'hybrid'?

From what I know, it's just a compilation of other arts/systems, etc.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Yes, it is.

 

[Juany118]

^^^^^ Yes, it is.

It's weird though. While I agree it is a hybrid there is a hardcore ex-IDF instructor in my area. By hardcore I mean he teaches his class in a local park, rain or shine, 12 months out of the year so you are training in "real" conditions. Sadly my work schedule started to not match his class times. During our first conversation he rather sharply corrected me as follows..."Krav Maga is not a Martial art, it is a fighting system." I have met other instructors who say the same, as such I sometimes purposefully remove it from conversations about "Martial Arts" and only raise it in conversations about "self-defense."

 

[KPM]

I thinks its all just semantics. He probably wants to divorce his Krav Maga from the typical strip-mall dojo whose primary clientele is below the age of 16 and where lessons about being a good citizen are common.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's weird though. While I agree it is a hybrid there is a hardcore ex-IDF instructor in my area. By hardcore I mean he teaches his class in a local park, rain or shine, 12 months out of the year so you are training in "real" conditions. Sadly my work schedule started to not match his class times. During our first conversation he rather sharply corrected me as follows..."Krav Maga is not a Martial art, it is a fighting system." I have met other instructors who say the same, as such I sometimes purposefully remove it from conversations about "Martial Arts" and only raise it in conversations about "self-defense."

I've heard this from other KM folks. In my opinion, it's marketing. It's to differentiate it from those schools that teach a lot of fairly esoteric bits, those that focus on competition rather than self-defense, etc. As most of us would define "martial art", KM definitely fits the definition. Nearly any art could be simplified down to the most commonly "practical" effective moves, leaving out those movements that are used to teach principles or to help understand the history of the art or just to provide another area for learning the art once you have the basics down. I think that's the crux of what they point to as the difference.

 

[Juany118]



I've heard this from other KM folks. In my opinion, it's marketing. It's to differentiate it from those schools that teach a lot of fairly esoteric bits, those that focus on competition rather than self-defense, etc. As most of us would define "martial art", KM definitely fits the definition. Nearly any art could be simplified down to the most commonly "practical" effective moves, leaving out those movements that are used to teach principles or to help understand the history of the art or just to provide another area for learning the art once you have the basics down. I think that's the crux of what they point to as the difference.

I got the feeling from this guy though from additional conversations that he saw a "Martial Art" as something that had a philosophical and degree of tradition behind it. He didn't appear to be elitist, at least this guy. It was more like "I am modern, I don't have history. I was developed by exploiting the history of others."

Now this might be this is an ex-IDF guy who is 60ish and so really gets it from the source and not from the marketing? All the other instructors I have spoken to on this are also his students so I may well b e hearing what amounts to the same voice. What confused me I think was the humility implied by it. I kinda read it as "our stuff works at least as well, if not better, but we are missing that one thing."

 

[Gerry Seymour]




I got the feeling from this guy though from additional conversations that he saw a "Martial Art" as something that had a philosophical and degree of tradition behind it. He didn't appear to be elitist, at least this guy. It was more like "I am modern, I don't have history. I was developed by exploiting the history of others."

Now this might be this is an ex-IDF guy who is 60ish and so really gets it from the source and not from the marketing? All the other instructors I have spoken to on this are also his students so I may well b e hearing what amounts to the same voice. What confused me I think was the humility implied by it. I kinda read it as "our stuff works at least as well, if not better, but we are missing that one thing."

If that's his distinction, he's right, though the same could be said of NGA a mere 70 years ago, and it would have been called a martial art from the beginning. Perhaps he's talking about the traditions and some of the cultural carry-over seen in many Eastern MA. Since many people do, in fact, equate "martial art" with "Eastern martial art", that's a distinction that some will make, and would be a valid distinction for Krav Maga. However, if we do that, we have to exclude boxing, Savate, and fencing, because they aren't Eastern. Okay, we could leave fencing in if we acknowledge the level of tradition and ritual is similar to many Eastern-based arts. But then we're working the distinction between "traditional martial arts" and "non-traditional (or modern) martial arts".

In any case, by my definition, KM counts as a "martial art". I've yet to come up with a decent definition for "system" that doesn't end up being roughly the same as my definition for "martial art".

 

[Juany118]

If that's his distinction, he's right, though the same could be said of NGA a mere 70 years ago, and it would have been called a martial art from the beginning. Perhaps he's talking about the traditions and some of the cultural carry-over seen in many Eastern MA. Since many people do, in fact, equate "martial art" with "Eastern martial art", that's a distinction that some will make, and would be a valid distinction for Krav Maga. However, if we do that, we have to exclude boxing, Savate, and fencing, because they aren't Eastern. Okay, we could leave fencing in if we acknowledge the level of tradition and ritual is similar to many Eastern-based arts. But then we're working the distinction between "traditional martial arts" and "non-traditional (or modern) martial arts".

In any case, by my definition, KM counts as a "martial art". I've yet to come up with a decent definition for "system" that doesn't end up being roughly the same as my definition for "martial art".

I think the only thing that makes me hesitate at calling KM, MMA etc a "martial art" vs a system is that I admittedly have an obsession with history (pops being a History Professor will do that to ya). As such I tend to see things in a very progressive step by step sorta way. So will they eventually become "martial arts?". Indeed they will. I at least don't square MA with the east. Savate, Fencing (my first MA actually), these are Martial Arts but, and this may seem corny, I think like a good wine or whiskey they need time to "mellow", to find that truly unique space. That time is not fixed mind you, each becomes "right" in its own time, but to me it is the honest Master's of the style that are the best judge of when that is just like the honest Vintner.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the only thing that makes me hesitate at calling KM, MMA etc a "martial art" vs a system is that I admittedly have an obsession with history (pops being a History Professor will do that to ya). As such I tend to see things in a very progressive step by step sorta way. So will they eventually become "martial arts?". Indeed they will. I at least don't square MA with the east. Savate, Fencing (my first MA actually), these are Martial Arts but, and this may seem corny, I think like a good wine or whiskey they need time to "mellow", to find that truly unique space. That time is not fixed mind you, each becomes "right" in its own time, but to me it is the honest Master's of the style that are the best judge of when that is just like the honest Vintner.

I don't see how history differentiates KM from NGA by any significant factor. 70 years ago, NGA was brand new, a hybrid art based largely on Daito-ryu, with some heavy influences from other arts (reportedly Shotokan, Judo, perhaps Shioda's Aikido). Today, KM is a relatively new hybrid art.

I won't call MMA a martial art for two reasons. The first is sheer stubbornness, based upon the term "Mixed Martial Arts". This one is pure semantics. To me, MMA still refers to a type of competition. The second reason is the more well-grounded: most folks training for MMA competition still train in concepts from more than one art, and there's no complete system in most MMA gyms, just an active blending of several styles (and not the same styles in all places). There are some gyms, however, where they've put together a complete system. If we looked at just those, I'd have to call MMA an art, just like I'd call boxing a martial art.

For me, the distinction between "system" and "art" is mostly that the system is the concepts and principles behind the art. A fairly vague difference in my mind.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Personally, I would call current MMA a "hybrid martial art." It is a hybrid of some variation of kickboxing with wrestling and BJJ. Some put more emphasis on one aspect than another. But to leave one of those 3 out completely typically means the fighter doesn't get very far in competition. So all of the good MMA gyms train all three and are pretty complete. A fighter may have a different background in the version of kickboxing he uses, but when they actually get in the ring they are often hard to tell apart. I saw a fight recently where one of the guys was from Capoeira, which is about as different from the "mainstream" as you can get as far as a striking style! But when he got in the ring his kickboxing looked just like everyone else.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I would put MMA in whatever category JKD is in - a hybrid MA container encapsulating other concepts and styles.

 

[Juany118]

I don't see how history differentiates KM from NGA by any significant factor. 70 years ago, NGA was brand new, a hybrid art based largely on Daito-ryu, with some heavy influences from other arts (reportedly Shotokan, Judo, perhaps Shioda's Aikido). Today, KM is a relatively new hybrid art.

I won't call MMA a martial art for two reasons. The first is sheer stubbornness, based upon the term "Mixed Martial Arts". This one is pure semantics. To me, MMA still refers to a type of competition. The second reason is the more well-grounded: most folks training for MMA competition still train in concepts from more than one art, and there's no complete system in most MMA gyms, just an active blending of several styles (and not the same styles in all places). There are some gyms, however, where they've put together a complete system. If we looked at just those, I'd have to call MMA an art, just like I'd call boxing a martial art.

For me, the distinction between "system" and "art" is mostly that the system is the concepts and principles behind the art. A fairly vague difference in my mind.

Well as you said, it is largely based on Daito-ryu, KM doesnt have such a broad foundation and is, for the most part imo, little different than the formalized "combatives" of many organizations. It started with boxing, wrestling and basic street fighting skills in WWII Poland. In the 60s they added Judo, then added some Aikido techniques in the 70's. Also, imo, due to its evolution and it's primary place of teaching (the security forces) tends to have it lack the cultural elements that make it a "martial art" vs a "system". KM wasn't taught in a civilian context until the 1970s. If we call KM a martial art then we would, again just my opinion, have to call Law Enforcement combatives like LOCKUP and PPCT Martial Arts.

I sympathize with your ideas on MMA btw, but I think, due to the rules, MMA is well on its way to becoming a codified martial art. There are even MMA academies now teaching largely the same way to fight in that Octagon, as you note. One of the desk officer I work with takes off for every UFC PPV fight and we talk all the time, sadly, about how the days of a multitude of different MA styles meeting in the Octagon is all but gone.

 

[KPM]

Wing Tai. Another modern hybrid system that makes use of Wing Chun:

 

[Juany118]

Wing Tai. Another modern hybrid system that makes use of Wing Chun:

I will bow out now because I have watched videos involving DK Yoo (first video) and have yet to find one that isn't "completely stupid and passive opponent making me look good."

 

[Juany118]

I will bow out at this point only because my views of this system are tainted by the fraud DK Yoo. He sells himself in a few videos as a Master of all of the arts that = the system. Hey when I saw him say "I am doing Wing Chun" he completely violated centerline theory and then when he did FMA I wish we were in the same room so I could throw him through a window.

 

[KPM]

Good feedback. I wasn't trying to comment on the value or validity of what he is doing. Only that hybrid arts are still out there. And what the heck is that Klingon-looking weapon that they use??!!!

 

[drop bear]

Good feedback. I wasn't trying to comment on the value or validity of what he is doing. Only that hybrid arts are still out there. And what the heck is that Klingon-looking weapon that they use??!!!

Precisely that I believe.

 

[geezer]

I call Bogus Bat'leth! (See 0:46 in the second clip above). Real Klingons don't use polypropylene-trainers. They start their kids off with one of these:

 

[Juany118]

I call Bogus Bat'leth! (See 0:46 in the second clip above). Real Klingons don't use polypropylene-trainers. They start their kids off with one of these:

View attachment 20018

Beat me to it but I have always been a bigger fan of the Mek'leth myself. This could actually be a practical weapon (if it had a more ergonomic handle )

 

[Juany118]

Good feedback. I wasn't trying to comment on the value or validity of what he is doing. Only that hybrid arts are still out there. And what the heck is that Klingon-looking weapon that they use??!!!

Below is the video I was referencing. Originally this guy sold himself as a Systema guy but still a master of multiple arts. However you have the classic passive, relaxed, crash test dummy opponents. The guy certially is smooth, coordinated and fit but yeah... Now, perhaps because Systema has a questionable reputation atm, the same guy pops up under Wing Tai but I hear much the same regarding this as I have Systema.