punisher73
Senior Master
Thanks for the clarification. This information was not in the original post.
Hurting people
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- #22
I think the idea was to learn how to pay attention if we were ever to need to defend our selves somewhere with low visibilityWas there an idea with this or was it to cut electricity bills?
Let me guess - the first strike made him spit out hte mouth guard, then you got an opening to finish him off guard! Seems tactically correct!
punisher73
Senior Master
Out of curiosity, does your style practice Kusanku kata? It is often taught as a "low light" kata.
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- #24
No we dont sounds cool though for reference I train Tang Soo Do
isshinryuronin26 26
Senior Master
Often does not mean accurately.
What was the presumed lesson to learn?
I've only tested to practice to launch punches and kicks relative to a sensing long guard on the heavy bag with closed yes, it is a good excercise. But I figure the hard part is not to hit blindly, but to anticipate and guard/block blindly.
punisher73
Senior Master
It might be called Kong Sang Koon in your style. I know that some styles of TSD has it, I'm not familiar enough to know if there are different "styles" of TSD that may have different katas.
punisher73
Senior Master
Whether or not WE agree that it was used for "night fighting", Tatsuo Shimabuku DID teach it for night fighting (focusing on him because I know that you study IR). We also know that Chotoku Kyan taught it for night fighting as well. So in SOME Okinawan styles, we know that this was the belief and teaching of the kata.
I know this is a big debate about the kata.
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- #29
Not in my style I`m apart of the World Tang Soo Do Association i know there`s others more traditional and then there is also international Tang soo Do Federation
isshinryuronin26 26
Senior Master
Don't know about Kyan's ref to night fighting (I've heard this but never saw any source - do you have info on this?) but I know the US military was fed some tall tales (they loved it!) and little/no oyo. I believe such stories were told to them to obscure the oyo. My sense is that dropping down on the ground to avoid detection from attackers standing just a few feet away makes no sense. More likely part of a sweep or low back kick. Stomping the ground on one side prior to punching with the other to make the attacker respond to the sound in the dark fails the same way. More likely it's a knee check v a low kick or a knee strike to the opponent's thigh. Other moves to shield the eyes from moonlight or framing the moon for spiritual reasons also seem illogical. There is practical bunkai to explain such moves for pure combat applications. My sensei who regularly visited with Angi (Shimabuku's son-in-law) and is the personal student of Angi's protege also discounts these ideas. I'll wrap this up as it's nighttime and I need to practice my kata.
Jesse Enkamp provides this: https://cdn2731.templcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/IMG_8234.jpg or just "Kushanku night kata" or attach Jesse's name to the search. Nor was naihanchi designed for combat on a sanpan. The embusen is meant to be deviated from in real application (as in other kata) and holds no real significance.
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Same Trick82 33
Master of Arts
Combined with Naihanchi thatās designed for fighting on/in narrow pathways itās becomes really something
Edit- I just read isshinryuronin bringing it up
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punisher73
Senior Master
And Chinto was designed for a bridge.
punisher73
Senior Master
Classical Fighting Arts #22-24 contains the interview with the student who studied directly with Chotoku Kyan (3 part interview) and says that Kyan taught Kusanku with night fighting applications.
Tatsuo Shimabuku's son, Ciso, said that his father did teach and modify Kusanku as a night fighting kata. The dropping down isn't to avoid "being seen" by the attacker's. It is the exact opposite, it is to get low to the ground to look up to see the attacker. The night sky isn't pure black so they would be silhouetted. Yes, the 3rd and 4th movements were taught to shield the eyes according to Ciso and AJ Advincula. It is important to note that these same moves are found in Ninjutsu as a way to find the attacker and protect the eyes. The beginning moves, as taught by Tatsuo, were symbolic only.
Not all branches of Shorin-Ryu (or derivatives) teach Kusanku in this manner.
VERY funny thing. While trying to track down the interview, I an old thread from here came up in my search and you and I had this EXACT same discussion about 3 years ago. LOL
isshinryuronin26 26
Senior Master
If one can't see an attacker from four or five feet away, he needs a good pair of glasses. Could make sense at a non-combat distance like fifty feet away, but kata wasn't designed for that. But if you do drop down, by the time you get up the attacker could have moved, and you'd have to do it again - all that going up and down would be tiring and give my aging knees too much of a workout
.I never saw a moon so bright it could blind you. This makes more sense in a DAY time situation, not night. More likely they are parries and low strike or block. If it was to shield from moonlight, it would only be useful on a full moon night without clouds or at the right angle or time of night. Application would be limited.
Many of those linear front-to-back pivots are to facilitate throws and not to fit combat into a narrow space. Besides, wouldn't it make more sense to throw the guy OVER the bridge (or into a wall) rather than just back on the line of attack?
Regardless of the stories, my view is that everything in kata is a direct combat technique. This seems more logical and practical than the interpretations in question. Remember, oyo was still guarded in the 50's and 60's by the Okinawans and not revealed to short term students (especially foreigners like American military) and so other explanations were given for some bunkai. Even a punch can be done at night - that doesn't mean it was designed for it. (I'm trying hard here to make you a believer
but I know it's hard to abandon what one was taught.)
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So grappling arts is the natural choice for nighttime fighting? Elegant answer!
HighKick
Senior Master
I would add the common sense approach!
Close range, hands up and spinning elbows?
punisher73
Senior Master
I'm not really disagreeing with you at all. Just pointing out historically what we know was taught.If one can't see an attacker from four or five feet away, he needs a good pair of glasses. Could make sense at a non-combat distance like fifty feet away, but kata wasn't designed for that. But if you do drop down, by the time you get up the attacker could have moved, and you'd have to do it again - all that going up and down would be tiring and give my aging knees too much of a workout
I never saw a moon so bright it could blind you. This makes more sense in a DAY time situation, not night. More likely they are parries and low strike or block. If it was to shield from moonlight, it would only be useful on a full moon night without clouds or at the right angle or time of night. Application would be limited.
Many of those linear front-to-back pivots are to facilitate throws and not to fit combat into a narrow space. Besides, wouldn't it make more sense to throw the guy OVER the bridge (or into a wall) rather than just back on the line of attack?
Regardless of the stories, my view is that everything in kata is a direct combat technique. This seems more logical and practical than the interpretations in question. Remember, oyo was still guarded in the 50's and 60's by the Okinawans and not revealed to short term students (especially foreigners like American military) and so other explanations were given for some bunkai. Even a punch can be done at night - that doesn't mean it was designed for it. (I'm trying hard here to make you a believer
But, "yes" the dropping down to silhouette someone to see them is a longer range technique. Contrary to what modern people think, some of the moves really were a "one trick pony" and designed for a very specific application. Can we find other applications in it? Yes. motion is motion. For example, the move in Kusanku kata where one hand is placed behind your head and the other hand is executing an open hand shuto with the palm up. Many styles have moved the rear hand to a more side position and it loses its original application, which was actually reaching back for a Jiffa (hair pin) to use as a weapon. This is according to Hohan Soken.
I completely agree about Chinto. I should have put some type of emoji on my comment. I was just pointing out that stories still persist on why some kata look the way that they do. I don't think that Chinto was designed for fighting on a bridge or that Naihanchi was just for fighting in a rice patty.
isshinryuronin26 26
Senior Master
Taught to Americans, or dedicated Okinawans? - there was a difference.
My style has this move in Kusanku, done in a twist stance which is often indicative of a joint lock/strike. The technique is completely in accordance with this bunkai - one hand pulling the opponent's hand to your head, straightening his arm (facilitated by the twist) to be struck with the shuto (to elbow or shoulder joint).
I watched several other styles' version of this move - if the purpose was to pull out a hairpin to be used as a weapon, wouldn't there be some sort of strike with it? The moves which follow show no hint of this application (stabbing motion) in any version I watched.
Curiously, I watched a video of Hohan Soken himself (Matsumura seito shorinryu style) performing this kata, but I could not even see, or at least recognize, this move in his version at all?!
I'm NOT discounting that at some time by some master, one or more of these kinds of stories were mentioned as possible options as adaptive bunkai but seriously doubt they were meant to be the main application. My opinion is based on practicality, MA logic and the kata technique itself.
Thank you for the discussion as it led me to Hohan's video and the interesting fact that he was the great-grandson of the legendary "Bushi" Matsumura.
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