How to Improve Army Combatives Training?

[Darrin Cook]

"We were teaching Soldiers too much stuff," said Hertling, a veteran of Desert Storm and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The result was a "task paralysis" and loss of focus.
One task Hertling wants to do away with is bayonet training.
In today's wars, there's no reason for soldiers to learn how to fix bayonets to their rifles and disembowel an enemy combatant, Hertling said. Besides, bayonets don't fit rifles soldiers carry today, he added.
Hertling, though, conceded that bayonet training is deeply ingrained in the Army culture.
"Some of these ideas would make old infantrymen turn over in their graves," Hertling said.
Hertling also wants combatives or hand-to-hand fighting to de-emphasize grappling or basic wrestling moves. Instead, Soldiers need to learn to fight with their hands and use anything they can grab -- whether it is a knife or stick -- as a weapon, he added.



Would you agree:
1. No Bayonet
2. Less Grappling
3. More Striking

4. More Improvised Weapons Ability

 

[Tez3]

"We were teaching Soldiers too much stuff," said Hertling, a veteran of Desert Storm and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The result was a "task paralysis" and loss of focus.
One task Hertling wants to do away with is bayonet training.
In today's wars, there's no reason for soldiers to learn how to fix bayonets to their rifles and disembowel an enemy combatant, Hertling said. Besides, bayonets don't fit rifles soldiers carry today, he added.
Hertling, though, conceded that bayonet training is deeply ingrained in the Army culture.
"Some of these ideas would make old infantrymen turn over in their graves," Hertling said.
Hertling also wants combatives or hand-to-hand fighting to de-emphasize grappling or basic wrestling moves. Instead, Soldiers need to learn to fight with their hands and use anything they can grab -- whether it is a knife or stick -- as a weapon, he added.



Would you agree:
1. No Bayonet
2. Less Grappling
3. More Striking

4. More Improvised Weapons Ability

You'd probably want to mention that to the soldiers that have had to fight using bayonets in Afghan then.
Our soldiers don't do grappling....well not in combat and rarely with other soldiers anyway.
They are also hugely used to improvising weapons, our lot can make weapons out of anything.
I think you need to read the other thread about bayonets.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84435

 

[jks9199]

The comment is kind of a circular statement: reduce combatives training but teach them to use anything and everything as a weapon. Eliminate bayonets but teach them to use anything around them as a weapon.

Bayonets serve a purpose. Basic unarmed hand-to-hand skills serve a purpose -- especially in the "battlefields" our troops are finding themselves in today, with no real front line or defined battlefield, it's very conceivable that a soldier could find themselves under attack in conditions where they don't have weapons to hand.

 

[Tez3]

The comment is kind of a circular statement: reduce combatives training but teach them to use anything and everything as a weapon. Eliminate bayonets but teach them to use anything around them as a weapon.

Bayonets serve a purpose. Basic unarmed hand-to-hand skills serve a purpose -- especially in the "battlefields" our troops are finding themselves in today, with no real front line or defined battlefield, it's very conceivable that a soldier could find themselves under attack in conditions where they don't have weapons to hand.

I don't know about your soldiers but ours spend a lot of time fighting 'outside working hours'. It's a pain for many of us but theres no denying that they can fight when it comes to it hand to hand. A good many of the soldiers are in the army for fighting, as civvies they've been given the choice, army or custodial sentence.
Some regiments have reputations for their fighting 'not in a combat situation', the Scottish regiments in particular, they've been reinforced too with the Fijians, big blokes who love a good fight.

 

[theletch1]

I recently found a copy of my old USMC LINE system of h2h combat. Every technique ended with a killing blow, lots of kicks to the knees and groin, lots of stomps to the head, knife fighting, bayonet fighting, using the rifle as a weapon (other than shooting), using your surroundings as a weapon etc, etc. Ah, nostalgia... god, I miss the head stomp! Oh and the eye gouge! Truth is, though, that that was back during the cold war and the mission was simple... if it moved kill it. The mission is much different now. The simple techniques that we used way back when just aren't gonna cover all the situations the troops will face. They are going to NEED some sort of training for simply controlling an opponent. Task paralysis is a by product of shoving too much into the brain in too short a time. It could simply be that more training is the answer, not less.

 

[Tez3]

I recently found a copy of my old USMC LINE system of h2h combat. Every technique ended with a killing blow, lots of kicks to the knees and groin, lots of stomps to the head, knife fighting, bayonet fighting, using the rifle as a weapon (other than shooting), using your surroundings as a weapon etc, etc. Ah, nostalgia... god, I miss the head stomp! Oh and the eye gouge! Truth is, though, that that was back during the cold war and the mission was simple... if it moved kill it. The mission is much different now. The simple techniques that we used way back when just aren't gonna cover all the situations the troops will face. They are going to NEED some sort of training for simply controlling an opponent. Task paralysis is a by product of shoving too much into the brain in too short a time. It could simply be that more training is the answer, not less.

Perhaps longer training? How long is your training from civvie to passing out as a trained soldier? Ours is 26 weeks from being a recruit to passing out to your regiment. Phase one is 12 weeks then a further 14 weeks. The Guards and Paras do 28 weeks, Guards do extra drill and Paras P Company. The Gurkhas 32 weeks which includes the English language course. The Royal Marines have 32 weeks of basic training before passing out with their green beret.
Great care is taken over their training which includes bayonet training as it's also an aggression aquiring exercise, the Paras also have milling for this.
These are the basic courses, there are more to do once you have reasched your regiment.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

Great care is taken over their training which includes bayonet training as it's also an aggression aquiring exercise, the Paras also have milling for this.
These are the basic courses, there are more to do once you have reasched your regiment.

I thought your lot didn't need any aggression aquisition training!

 

[Tez3]

I thought your lot didn't need any aggression aquisition training!

Oh they don't trust me, the Army just likes to pretend they are little angels lol. It's more of an aggression focussing when sober exercise!

 

[jks9199]

I recently found a copy of my old USMC LINE system of h2h combat. Every technique ended with a killing blow, lots of kicks to the knees and groin, lots of stomps to the head, knife fighting, bayonet fighting, using the rifle as a weapon (other than shooting), using your surroundings as a weapon etc, etc. Ah, nostalgia... god, I miss the head stomp! Oh and the eye gouge! Truth is, though, that that was back during the cold war and the mission was simple... if it moved kill it. The mission is much different now. The simple techniques that we used way back when just aren't gonna cover all the situations the troops will face. They are going to NEED some sort of training for simply controlling an opponent. Task paralysis is a by product of shoving too much into the brain in too short a time. It could simply be that more training is the answer, not less.

I think that's the real key. An infantry soldier today is much more than the simple grunt of even WWI or WWII (and even then, they weren't that simple!). Ten weeks of basic training transforms a civilian into a soldier -- or at least a body in a uniform with a soldierly bearing. A few more weeks of specialized training puts 'em theoretically ready to fight. But let's be real... They ain't ready to be more than meat. Maybe it's time to lengthen Basic training rather than try to figure out what couple of hours can be trimmed... I mean, most police basic officer training is at least 12 to 16 weeks today -- and often closer to 20 or 24 weeks. And that's followed by Field Training which ranges from 6 to 12 weeks, and sometimes even longer...

 

[Tez3]

It may cost more money initially to lengthen the basic course but it's definitely worth it in the long run to get properly trained soldiers. Infantry is as much a specialised trade these days as any other in the forces.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think that's the real key. An infantry soldier today is much more than the simple grunt of even WWI or WWII (and even then, they weren't that simple!). Ten weeks of basic training transforms a civilian into a soldier -- or at least a body in a uniform with a soldierly bearing. A few more weeks of specialized training puts 'em theoretically ready to fight. But let's be real... They ain't ready to be more than meat. Maybe it's time to lengthen Basic training rather than try to figure out what couple of hours can be trimmed... I mean, most police basic officer training is at least 12 to 16 weeks today -- and often closer to 20 or 24 weeks. And that's followed by Field Training which ranges from 6 to 12 weeks, and sometimes even longer...

Jks9199 I am in full agreement with making sure that soldiers are properly prepared and if it takes longer for a better soldier then so be it.