How to flow out of a pinned hand.

Callen

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How to escape a pinned hand. Using a relaxed body to flow out of the pinned arm position.
Thanks for sharing!

In my opinion this scenario really gives you an excellent opportunity to chase your opponents center, instead of his arms. Your left hand is completely free. If the way is clear, attack center.
 
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wckf92

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Thanks for sharing!

In my opinion this scenario really gives you an excellent opportunity to chase your opponents center, instead of his arms. Your left hand is completely free. If the way is clear, attack center.
@Callen beat me to it. This scenario may look "cool", but it essentially is training the participants to chase hands.
 
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futsaowingchun

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Thanks for sharing!

In my opinion this scenario really gives you an excellent opportunity to chase your opponents center, instead of his arms. Your left hand is completely free. If the way is clear, attack center.
Hi Callen.. if you noticed in the video what I did was effect his center so it's not chasing hands..
 

Callen

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Hi Callen.. if you noticed in the video what I did was effect his center so it's not chasing hands..
You absolutely disrupted his structure, but I think attacking center in this context is a bit subjective. Im in no way attempting to correct or criticize, just offering a different perspective.

In my training, for example, when we chi sau, poon sau or gwoh sau, we are always training to attack the opponent's center immediately when the hands are free. The absolute second there is no longer force or pressure on our arms during chi sau, our hands go forward to hit automatically. This is how we develop Lat Sau Jik Chung. Everything we do is in the service of attacking center; elbow position, angling, footwork, hands on top, hitting when the way is clear, etc.. to name a few. Always chase center.

So in terms of your video, another way to think about attacking center from chi sau is to hit as soon as your opponent removes his right arm from your left @0:04 sec. It is a fantastic opportunity for you to be as direct and efficient with the system as possible without chasing hands. It would also make it harder for your opponent to cover your right arm with both of his hands.
 
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futsaowingchun

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You absolutely disrupted his structure, but I think attacking center in this context is a bit subjective. Im in no way attempting to correct or criticize, just offering a different perspective.

In my training, for example, when we chi sau, poon sau or gwoh sau, we are always training to attack the opponent's center immediately when the hands are free. The absolute second there is no longer force or pressure on our arms during chi sau, our hands go forward to hit automatically. This is how we develop Lat Sau Jik Chung. Everything we do is in the service of attacking center; elbow position, angling, footwork, hands on top, hitting when the way is clear, etc.. to name a few. Always chase center.

So in terms of your video, another way to think about attacking center from chi sau is to hit as soon as your opponent removes his right arm from your left @0:04 sec. It is a fantastic opportunity for you to be as direct and efficient with the system as possible without chasing hands. It would also make it harder for your opponent to cover your right arm with both of his hands.
yes i understand everything your talking about.. Am using by body in a different way a differnt set of skill sets. No one base on Centerline theory but based on Center Point theory
 

Callen

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yes i understand everything your talking about.. Am using by body in a different way a differnt set of skill sets. No one base on Centerline theory but based on Center Point theory
To a lot of practitioners, attacking center means attacking the opponent's center of mass... and to those who already train this way, attacking the opponent's center of mass is the very definition of putting the centerline concept into action.

Wong Shun Leung for example, taught his students to place very little emphasis on their own centerline when pressuring and attacking. The focus was always the opponent's center, not their own.
 
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futsaowingchun

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To a lot of practitioners, attacking center means attacking the opponent's center of mass... and to those who already train this way, attacking the opponent's center of mass is the very definition of putting the centerline concept into action.

Wong Shun Leung for example, taught his students to place very little emphasis on their own centerline when pressuring and attacking. The focus was always the opponent's center, not their own.
I understand what your saying but am not concerned with attacking center of mass C.O.M am concern with distrubting the Csnter point which is the balance point of the body not C.O.M the center point is about 2" below your navel..as you can see it's very different
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Your opponent will not do something meaningless.

You may have ignored your opponent's free left hand. Of course you have free left hand too. But since your opponent uses right hand to push up your right arm, he is one step ahead of you.

While you are trying to deal with your oppont's right arm, he can use his

- right forearm to push on your throat.
- left hand to pull your right leg.
- right leg to inner hook your left leg.

Your opponent may take you down when you try to deal with his right arm. This is why I have said that your opponent is one step ahead of you.
 
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futsaowingchun

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Your opponent will not do something meaningless.

You may have ignored your opponent's free left hand. Of course you have free left hand too. But since your opponent uses right hand to push up your right arm, he is one step ahead of you.

While you are trying to deal with your oppont's right arm, he can use his

- right forearm to push on your throat.
- left hand to pull your right leg.
- right leg to inner hook your left leg.

Your opponent may take you down when you try to deal with his right arm. This is why I have said that your opponent is one step ahead of you.
He's one step ahead of me but I let him put me in that position otherwise there would be no video..
 

Kung Fu Wang

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He's one step ahead of me but I let him put me in that position otherwise there would be no video..
Your opponent allows you to have a free left hand. You also allow your opponent to have a free left hand. Too many things could happen there.

IMO, it makes more sense that your opponent uses his

- left hand to push your right arm up,
- right hand to push your left arm down (or up).

This way you won't have any free arm.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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When your opponent uses right arm to push your right arm up, you can use your left arm to push his right arm up more than he wants to. At the same time your free right arm can hit him with an uppercut.

IMO, to borrow your opponent's force is always better than to resist against his force.
 

Callen

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I understand what your saying but am not concerned with attacking center of mass C.O.M am concern with distrubting the Csnter point which is the balance point of the body not C.O.M the center point is about 2" below your navel..as you can see it's very different

This idea is what I call Center point theory which is not using your Centerline, but locking onto the center point or mass of the opponent.

In your other post, "Do You Have a Progressive Mindset?", you defined your Center Point theory as locking onto the center point or mass of the opponent (quoted above). You have now introduced a new element of distributing the center point or balance point of the body, which in your Center Point theory, is a center point below the navel (near the Dan Tian). You mention mass of the opponent as a defining factor in one post, but then take it away in another.

I'm not trying to be critical or demeaning in any way; but I guess I'm having a difficult time understanding what your Center Point theory really is in terms of its uniqueness to the Wing Chun system, and how it relates to the opponent's centerline differently than attacking center. Also, now that I know this video is an example of your Center Point theory, some questions do come to mind:

  • In what specific ways does this video exemplify the utilization of your Center Point theory? How exactly does your Center Point theory function uniquely to the Wing Chun system in this scenario?

  • In regards to how the Wing Chun system functions as a whole, what are the unique benefits and differences of focusing 2 inches below the navel (where you said your Center Point theory focuses) as opposed to attacking the opponent's center?

  • How is your Center Point theory an improved Wing Chun method?

  • How does your Center Point theory train and develop all of the concepts and principles of the Wing Chun system?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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in the video what I did was effect his center so it's not chasing hands..
There is no such thing as "chase hands". When your opponent controls both of your arms, you have to free your arms first before you can do anything. If your opponent only controls one of your arms and you have a free arm, that's different story.

When your opponent pushes your arm up, he can attack your center first by his shoulder.

 
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wckf92

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There is no such thing as "chase hands". When your opponent control your arm, you have to free your arm first before you can do anything.

When your opponent pushes your arm up, he can attack your center first by his shoulder.

:banghead:
 

geezer

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How to escape a pinned hand. Using a relaxed body to flow out of the pinned arm position.
Aside from the cogent comments made by Callen above, I'm a little dubious about the entire exchange shown in the video. Specifically, what is your opponent trying to accomplish with his "attack"? It appears as though he releases your left arm and pushes your right arm upward, and then extends his left arm around your far side (out of view).

Consider the following (already pointed out by Callan and John Wang):

1. He completely releases your left arm inviting you to strike him.
2. His right arm pushes your left arm up accomplishing nothing, he neither unbalances you nor moves in to strike you with his right elbow.
3. He does free up his own left arm, but instead of striking your ribs he apparently extends it around your far side... Why???

And then, finally you respond with an elbow grapple that unbalances him and causes him to be tossed away to the side ...a move that would be at best cumbersome and unreliable in a more combative situation.

Perhaps your intent is just to illustrate a "concept". Regardless, my main issue with this is the set up as stated above. It seems inconsistent with really basic WC concepts such as simplicity, efficiency and practicality and, as Callen stated, the motto of Loi lau hoy sung, lat sau jik chung.
 

wckf92

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There is no such thing as "chase hands".
There is a very clear example of chasing hands in the OP video that started this thread. Go back and watch it again. It happens in the first few seconds.
 

wckf92

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Hi Callen.. if you noticed in the video what I did was effect his center so it's not chasing hands..

You can "redefine" things to make it fit your narrative...but it doesn't change the fact that you chased hands first in order to effect is center.
 

geezer

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There is no such thing as "chase hands".

1638059398308.png

I don't see you "chasing hands"here. You grapple and use hands and arms as handles and levers, but you do so to control the body!

WC guys do the same thing, except as strikers. Or should. i.e. we should be targeting the center and also unbalancing and controlling the body not engaging in the futile pursuit of their fists!
 
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geezer

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There is a very clear example of chasing hands in the OP video that started this thread. Go back and watch it again. It happens in the first few seconds.
I don't think John uses the term "chasing hands" the way most WC folks do. This is a classic failure to communicate.
 
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