How to Defeat Dudes Episode 5: Both hand wrist grabs

[Chuck Johnson]

Greetings all. Hope everyone is doing well, and training hard. Just posted episode 5 of the show up on youtube so please feel free to check it out. As always, your comments and criticisms are welcome. (And yes I do read them! Its a bit tricky trying to balance out the comedy with the seriousness of the topic, but I hope you all find it entertaining nonetheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSk8Pw50A6A&list=PL39E179E2F432566B&index=8&feature=plpp_video

 

[shesulsa]

This looks pretty similar to what I practice, though I don't place the thumb on the opposing thumb web or thumb meat, rather between the first and second metacarpals. I've found this placement along with the two middle fingers hooked deep into the other hand affords the opportunity to force the wrist to bend which is MOST HELPFUL in this particular joint lock.

 

[oftheherd1]

Good demonstration. We have some techniques in the Hapkido I learned, that are similar to that. Especially the joint lock. We don't use the pressure point like you do except on close and personal stuff like headlocks and chokes. We also don't use an escape like with your left hand. But its all good. I will try to add that to my tool kit.

Thanks.

 

[K-man]

Don't like to rain on the parade but I don't like this technique. The release is fine and if after the release you hit with a backfist then you are halfway home. To reach for that other hand first is asking for a fist in the face. Secondly, the thumb in the web of the thumb technique will not work against resistance. I have seen it demonstrated by many people over many years and the partner always goes along with the technique. It is the same technique demonstrated against a shoulder grab. It takes a lot of training and very special technique to make it work against resistance. I took this to my class tonight and nobody could make it work. These are strong men with over 20 years of martial arts behind them. I hit them all before they could blink and not one could do the wrist technique shown.

It's not all negative. If after the release and backfist you take the grip with the held hand as shown, you can still move through to the same armbar if you use your body to create the movement. The thing that stops the technique as shown working is thinking that the hand gripping your wrist can be turned as demonstrated. I challenge everyone here to try this against full resistance and post what they discover.

 

[mook jong man]

Too many moves in these techniques , too complex.

All you have to do is pull back through both your elbows and twist your forearms at the same time.
As you do this you do a medium heel kick to the groin or a low heel kick to the knee/shin , then step down and double palm strike them in the head or solar plexus.

The twisting of the forearms helps to break the grip by putting the attackers arms in a weak position , pulling back from your elbows off balances the attacker and pulls him into your kick.

If he's bending over and putting his hips back his structure is already compromised and he will be even more easily dragged in and off balanced

Two moves , that's it , end of story.

 

[oftheherd1]

I was surprised to note your profile shows you as a student of Aikido. Perhaps it is radically different from the techniques in the Hapkido I learned.

Don't like to rain on the parade but I don't like this technique. The release is fine and if after the release you hit with a backfist then you are halfway home. To reach for that other hand first is asking for a fist in the face.

Notice that the opponent is being struck on the elbow which may cause damage or injury. As the release is completed, since the opponent's right arm is being forced to his left side, you are just where you need to be to grasp his hand and begin the arm bar. If he is cocking his right hand and arm for a strike, and if you are doing the lock quickly and correctly, the opponent will suddenly find himself turned and bent over. He cannot strike you.

Secondly, the thumb in the web of the thumb technique will not work against resistance. I have seen it demonstrated by many people over many years and the partner always goes along with the technique. It is the same technique demonstrated against a shoulder grab. It takes a lot of training and very special technique to make it work against resistance.

As I mentioned above, I would not be likely to try and use this here. I would go for the back of the hand as mentioned by shesulsa above, or lever his hand open with my thumb. The problem is that pressure points may be victim specific. Regardless they require a lot of practice to work correctly.

I took this to my class tonight and nobody could make it work. These are strong men with over 20 years of martial arts behind them.

But apparently no years of practicing that technique. EDIT: I forgot to mention above that you should open your palm so it is straight and the fingers and thumb are apart. This thickens the wrist and makes it easier to remove his hand. That is such a basic part of Hapkido grab defense, I didn't mention it as I was concentrating on explaining how the technique can work.

I hit them all before they could blink and not one could do the wrist technique shown.

That takes practice under an instructor who can show you what you are doing wrong. One evening where you start out with a prejudice against it, and don't have someone who can show you and guide you, isn't going to let you do the technique.

One thing I do disagree with in the video, is once you begin the lock, keep the opponent's hand close into your chest. It gives you much more leverage. EDIT: Another thing is that he wasn't shown making a good strike to the opponent's elbow, but more th the upper forearm. That should still work, but a strike a little higher to forcefully hyper extend the elbow is better. Even if he is a fast reactor, he will still be distracted by the pain.



It's not all negative. If after the release and backfist you take the grip with the held hand as shown, you can still move through to the same armbar if you use your body to create the movement.

Using your feet and body are part of what makes the technique work.

The thing that stops the technique as shown working is thinking that the hand gripping your wrist can be turned as demonstrated. I challenge everyone here to try this against full resistance and post what they discover.

I challenge anyone to use full resistance against someone properly trained, moving at speed, to allow it to be done a second time immediately after the first time. Done properly at speed will cause much pain. Especially if you add a knee kick to the face as you force the opponent down. But the technique itself will cause pain.

I understand if your martial arts background hasn't taught you to do that. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work when done correctly. Try it the way I have explained 20 or 30 times and see if it works better. If not, send me a video of what you are doing and I will try to help you.

 

[oftheherd1]

Too many moves in these (your) techniques , too complex.

...

Nothing wrong with yours, but if you want an even simpler technique, make a long step back with your left foot, pulling your opponent off balance. As you do so, rotate your arms and wrists quickly in a big circle to the outside of your body, with a rotation of your wrists such that as his wrists come together at the top of the arc, his hands are moved outward, exposing his protruding wrist bone. Hurts like crazy! He will let go and be stunned by the pain long enough to try some follow through.

 

[shesulsa]

Some of these responses indicate the posters may not be taking physics into account for slighter victims. If this is a strong, large man grabbing a slighter female (one of the more likely scenarios for this kind of attack), pulling back against the grip will be ineffectual and can actually help increase the grip.

Try examining your technique like this - if a child can't escape your grip using your technique, then you are not applying leverage from the appropriate vector.

 

[oftheherd1]

Some of these responses indicate the posters may not be taking physics into account for slighter victims. If this is a strong, large man grabbing a slighter female (one of the more likely scenarios for this kind of attack), pulling back against the grip will be ineffectual and can actually help increase the grip.

I would say in the technique I described, a slight move of the wrists forward will entice the opponent to resist, allowing an easier pull. If his grip is stronger, he won't be able to let go in time to prevent his wrist bones to be clanged together. But you are indeed correct, and we need as many tools in our toolbox as possible, so if/when one technique doesn't seem, or in fact isn't workable, we have some backup plans.

Try examining your technique like this - if a child can't escape your grip using your technique, then you are not applying leverage from the appropriate vector.

1

 

[MPC1257]

Too many moves in these techniques , too complex.

All you have to do is pull back through both your elbows and twist your forearms at the same time.
As you do this you do a medium heel kick to the groin or a low heel kick to the knee/shin , then step down and double palm strike them in the head or solar plexus.

The twisting of the forearms helps to break the grip by putting the attackers arms in a weak position , pulling back from your elbows off balances the attacker and pulls him into your kick.

If he's bending over and putting his hips back his structure is already compromised and he will be even more easily dragged in and off balanced

Two moves , that's it , end of story.

A techique that I learned is to drop your weight back like you are trying to pull away. If the attacker pulls you back towards them, you go with the movement and head butt them. Then you can go whatever follow up you would like.

 

[mook jong man]

Some of these responses indicate the posters may not be taking physics into account for slighter victims. If this is a strong, large man grabbing a slighter female (one of the more likely scenarios for this kind of attack), pulling back against the grip will be ineffectual and can actually help increase the grip.

Try examining your technique like this - if a child can't escape your grip using your technique, then you are not applying leverage from the appropriate vector.

The kicks are done simultaneously with the arm technique , it is the pain from the kick in conjunction with the arm technique that causes the grip to be released.
Wing Chun was founded by a slight woman , there are no techniques requiring the use of brute strength.

 

[frank raud]

As there are multiple ways to escape wrist grabs, perhaps a better question is why, particularly as a non martial artist do you want to end up in a controlling technique, instead of a stun and run? You justify the practice of wrist grabs as something that can frequently happen to women. Fair enough, but it should never be the intention of a smaller, untrained person to restrain a larger person, particularly one who just attacked you. I have an extensive background in jiu jitsu and judo, so am quite capable of applying restraints, but do not consider them a valid part of self defense.

 

[K-man]

I was surprised to note your profile shows you as a student of Aikido. Perhaps it is radically different from the techniques in the Hapkido I learned.



I understand if your martial arts background hasn't taught you to do that. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work when done correctly. Try it the way I have explained 20 or 30 times and see if it works better. If not, send me a video of what you are doing and I will try to help you.

Thank you for the offer. I didn't actually say I couldn't do it. I can, against total resistance, thanks to my aikido training. I don't teach it and I will never teach it as shown because it is a low percenter.

If you look at the target audience of these videos, it is, "Useful Stuff for the NON-Martial Artist". I stress, "NON-Martial Artist". What I was pointing out is that even experienced martial artists can't perform the technique against resistance without a lot of training.

And I did say that the technique to achieve the armbar will work by itself which is what you are saying. I do teach that but as a single hand move. Once you use two hands onto one leaving your opponent's other hand free, you are going to get hit unless you have correctly positioned your body. Once again we are talking about trained martial artists.

I teach self defence to non-martial artists but I teach simple techniques that have a reasonable chance of succeeding. I don't believe this is a valid technique for the target audience.

 

[oftheherd1]

Thank you for the offer. I didn't actually say I couldn't do it. I can, against total resistance, thanks to my aikido training. I don't teach it and I will never teach it as shown because it is a low percenter.

If you look at the target audience of these videos, it is, "Useful Stuff for the NON-Martial Artist". I stress, "NON-Martial Artist". What I was pointing out is that even experienced martial artists can't perform the technique against resistance without a lot of training.

And I did say that the technique to achieve the armbar will work by itself which is what you are saying. I do teach that but as a single hand move. Once you use two hands onto one leaving your opponent's other hand free, you are going to get hit unless you have correctly positioned your body. Once again we are talking about trained martial artists.

I teach self defence to non-martial artists but I teach simple techniques that have a reasonable chance of succeeding. I don't believe this is a valid technique for the target audience.

Ah, well then, I misunderstood you. I agree that isn't the best technique to teach a non-martial artist unless it can be practiced a lot under good instruction. It takes lots of practice, building up muscles and grip, and the confidence it will work. And will be best with prior training in joint locks and breaks. But you mentioned trained ( 20+years ) martial artists who could not perform the technique. That suggested to me people who weren't being shown the right way. I was simply defending the technique. I guess we agree more than we disagree.

 

[mook jong man]

Nothing wrong with yours, but if you want an even simpler technique, make a long step back with your left foot, pulling your opponent off balance. As you do so, rotate your arms and wrists quickly in a big circle to the outside of your body, with a rotation of your wrists such that as his wrists come together at the top of the arc, his hands are moved outward, exposing his protruding wrist bone. Hurts like crazy! He will let go and be stunned by the pain long enough to try some follow through.

We have a similar sort of application from the Bil Tze form.
You pivot your whole body as you rotate your forearm and pull the arm back , at the same time with your other arm you come over the top of his grip with an elbow strike.

Essentially he gets pulled straight into an elbow strike to the side of the head.
He becomes off balanced due to one side dragging him in and the other force is acting like a fulcrum with the elbow strike pivoting around his grip and going forward.

Simple technique , but an advanced application that requires a well developed stable stance to generate the proper force.

 

[oftheherd1]

We have a similar sort of application from the Bil Tze form.
You pivot your whole body as you rotate your forearm and pull the arm back , at the same time with your other arm you come over the top of his grip with an elbow strike.

Essentially he gets pulled straight into an elbow strike to the side of the head.
He becomes off balanced due to one side dragging him in and the other force is acting like a fulcrum with the elbow strike pivoting around his grip and going forward.

Simple technique , but an advanced application that requires a well developed stable stance to generate the proper force.

I like that. Thanks.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm. I'm going to be a little less forgiving.

The initial escape is not a very high return one, honestly, as you're moving in line with the strength of the arm, and taking it in a direction where there is plenty of space for the attacker to accommadate the escape. I can see the principle you're trying to use (the gap between the thumb and forefinger), but you've missed the rest of the picture, and forgotten about controlling/stopping the movement of the arm first. A small step along with your movement thwarts everything you're attempting to do. Again, actual study of te hodoki methods would help greatly if you're going to be teaching them.

The wrist/arm lock is okay, but nowhere near as strong as it could be. In essence, you're not taking it to the right position, you're not letting your arm move across to the inside of the arm, instead trying to keep it on top, which leads to the possibility of the escape you demonstrate. By taking your elbow a little further across, so that it ends up on the inside of the attackers arm, then bringing your elbow back in towards yourself (towards their arm), it's a far more powerful hold, and requires far less strength than the action you're using here.

When you discuss such techniques as being for women, as they are likely to be the ones attacked in such a fashion, the problem is that the methods you're showing aren't really that well suited. I would also say that your reasoning of "learn these techniques because you should learn the basic, simple techniques first" is rather flawed. The basic idea I agree with, but what you're showing here isn't really fitting that ideal. There are far more high-return, simple, basic methods for everything you've shown so far.

 

[shesulsa]

Hmm. I'm going to be a little less forgiving.

The initial escape is not a very high return one, honestly, as you're moving in line with the strength of the arm, and taking it in a direction where there is plenty of space for the attacker to accommadate the escape. I can see the principle you're trying to use (the gap between the thumb and forefinger), but you've missed the rest of the picture, and forgotten about controlling/stopping the movement of the arm first. A small step along with your movement thwarts everything you're attempting to do. Again, actual study of te hodoki methods would help greatly if you're going to be teaching them.

The wrist/arm lock is okay, but nowhere near as strong as it could be. In essence, you're not taking it to the right position, you're not letting your arm move across to the inside of the arm, instead trying to keep it on top, which leads to the possibility of the escape you demonstrate. By taking your elbow a little further across, so that it ends up on the inside of the attackers arm, then bringing your elbow back in towards yourself (towards their arm), it's a far more powerful hold, and requires far less strength than the action you're using here.

When you discuss such techniques as being for women, as they are likely to be the ones attacked in such a fashion, the problem is that the methods you're showing aren't really that well suited. I would also say that your reasoning of "learn these techniques because you should learn the basic, simple techniques first" is rather flawed. The basic idea I agree with, but what you're showing here isn't really fitting that ideal. There are far more high-return, simple, basic methods for everything you've shown so far.

I think I know what you're talking about here, but since we're talking about smaller movement, I'm wondering if there is any video demonstration of this? I'm pretty sure we have a technique for what you're describing and would love to solidify that notion. It is a favorite amongst LEO clients.

 

[oftheherd1]

Hmm. I'm going to be a little less forgiving.

The initial escape is not a very high return one, honestly, as you're moving in line with the strength of the arm, and taking it in a direction where there is plenty of space for the attacker to accommadate the escape.

Sorry sir, I cannot agree. I had not practiced that escape of the left hand, but it will work. You are not attacking against the strength, but the weakness. Grasp someone tightly and let them apply that escape by moving the hand down, out, and back over. Few people develop strength there.

I can see the principle you're trying to use (the gap between the thumb and forefinger), but you've missed the rest of the picture, and forgotten about controlling/stopping the movement of the arm first.

I agree that I at least, would be less inclined to try to use the pressure point, if that is what the OP is suggesting, but more what shesulsa talked about. It is the way I was taught. However, I don't understand the rest of what you are saying. By moving the opponent's right arm to his left, you are closer to grabbing and locking than the opponent is to cocking and striking.

A small step along with your movement thwarts everything you're attempting to do. Again, actual study of te hodoki methods would help greatly if you're going to be teaching them.

If you mean a step at the end of the lock I agree. He cautions against allowing that to happen. As I was taught, we would place his arm in our armpit and bar him down, allowing him no movement. However, I don't think at that point it makes a lot of difference. By then he should only have one useful arm, as you should have sprained or broken his wrist with the lock.

The wrist/arm lock is okay, but nowhere near as strong as it could be. In essence, you're not taking it to the right position, you're not letting your arm move across to the inside of the arm, instead trying to keep it on top, which leads to the possibility of the escape you demonstrate. By taking your elbow a little further across, so that it ends up on the inside of the attackers arm, then bringing your elbow back in towards yourself (towards their arm), it's a far more powerful hold, and requires far less strength than the action you're using here.

I think we are talking about the same thing, just describing it differently?

When you discuss such techniques as being for women, as they are likely to be the ones attacked in such a fashion, the problem is that the methods you're showing aren't really that well suited. I would also say that your reasoning of "learn these techniques because you should learn the basic, simple techniques first" is rather flawed. The basic idea I agree with, but what you're showing here isn't really fitting that ideal. There are far more high-return, simple, basic methods for everything you've shown so far.

There is truth in the above. You have to start with simpler things, and learn them well, so the more 'complicated' things don't seem so much that way. You also build up muscle strength for those moves with practice.

Not trying to be confrontational, just explaining what I have found works for me, with proper training.

 

[shesulsa]

Boy, with all these approaches, it sure would be great to have a live streaming webinar where we could all see the movements we're describing.