How to deal with forward pressure in Chi Sao

[futsaowingchun]

Its been awhile since I posted anything here. Ive recently made some video on stuff am working on.. Let me know what you think and if you have any questions. Here is the first on on Forward pressure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Its been awhile since I posted anything here. Ive recently made some video on stuff am working on.. Let me know what you think and if you have any questions. Here is the first on on Forward pressure.

I would like to see how that applies to other systems if possible.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taiji has push hand. WC has sticky hand. The training how to achieve arm contact is not clear. Should Taiji and WC also include "How to establish arms contact"?

If your opponent rotates his arms the same direction as you do, it can be difficult to establish arm contact. How do you solve that problem?

 

[futsaowingchun]

Taiji has push hand. WC has sticky hand. The training how to achieve arm contact is not clear. Should Taiji and WC also include "How to establish arms contact"?

If your opponent rotates his arms the same direction as you do, it can be difficult to establish arm contact. How do you solve that problem?

The training contact is the same as the Luk sao platform in this video. Am not sure what you mean how do you establish arm contact?

 

[futsaowingchun]

I would like to see how that applies to other systems if possible.

sure..I train with several people who have different styles. you can adopt it to any style

 

[wckf92]

Taiji has push hand. WC has sticky hand. The training how to achieve arm contact is not clear. Should Taiji and WC also include "How to establish arms contact"?

You mean during a fight? Or do you mean how two training partners connect arms to begin training / rolling in a chi sau partner drill?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You mean during a fight? Or do you mean how two training partners connect arms to begin training / rolling in a chi sau partner drill?

I'm talking about training (not fighting). This is a general MA issue. The process for

- Judo guys to obtain clinch.
- WC guys to set up sticky hand.
- Taiji guys to set up push hand.
- BJJ guys to start ground game.
- ...

should be addresses also.

The afterward training is important. But the previous training is also important.

My concern is if you try to touch your arm on your opponent's arm, but your opponent refuses and tries to avoid arm contact. The skill to solve that problem is not currently addressed in most of the WC sticky hand training.

A simple example is if I keep my arms straight up, you will never be able to apply under hook on me.

 

[wckf92]

I'm talking about training (not fighting). This is a general MA issue. The process for

- Judo guys to obtain clinch.
- WC guys to set up sticky hand.
- Taiji guys to set up push hand.
- BJJ guys to start ground game.
- ...

should be addresses also.

The afterward training is important. But the previous training is also important.

My concern is if you try to touch your arm on your opponent's arm, but your opponent refuses and tries to avoid arm contact. The skill to solve that problem is not currently addressed in most of the WC sticky hand training.

A simple example is if I keep my arms straight up, you will never be able to apply under hook on me.

I see.
Well, what most fail to realize is that sticking hand training is a cooperative partner drill.
So in your example, if my training partner avoids arm contact then they will never be able to train and practice. I can't force someone else to practice...so I'm having a hard time understanding your logic here.
From my own perspective and WC upbringing, the drill of chi sau is initiated by one training partner throwing a punch at the other training partners face. That person counter attacks, which establishes two arm contact...then they being rolling, training, etc in the chi sau platform method.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the drill of chi sau is initiated by one training partner throwing a punch at the other training partners face.

If the MA training all start from a punch, the training is realistic and I won't have any concern.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well, what most fail to realize is that sticking hand training is a cooperative partner drill.
So in your example, if my training partner avoids arm contact then they will never be able to train and practice. I can't force someone else to practice...so I'm having a hard time understanding your logic here

I think Wang and I are thinking the same thing. We understand that it's a cooperative partner drill but there is something in that drill that can be used against another system right?

So for me I don't want to see Chi Sao dealing with forward pressure discussed as WC vs WC. I would rather see Chi Sao dealing with forward pressure discussed as WC vs Boxer forward pressure. If you know WC then the chances you'll get into a WC street fight are slim. My assumption is that WC wasn't designed to fight against WC. So in that light. It only makes sense to describe the concepts as System A vs System B. This is what I think Wang is touching on with his statement.

If I were to try to teach my small knowledge of push hands I would first teach the concept. System A vs System A Then I would show how to apply those concepts in System A vs System B. Even with the smallest of knowledge for Tai Chi push hands. I can still apply it successfully against a MMA practitioner.

 

[Eric_H]

Well, what most fail to realize is that sticking hand training is a cooperative partner drill.

This is line dependent. HFY doesn't teach it as a cooperative drill. For us, it's meant to be combat stimulus and response.

I think what @Kung Fu Wang was driving at was more along the line of Jeet Kiu, how do you form a bridge, and more specifically how do you form one when the opponent refuses to offer you one. It's hard to give a canned answer to that, as it depends on facing, distance and leverage.

As best as I can give is we have a way of breaking down space that we call I-C-I, defining the opponent's inside gate, the community/shared space and my inside gate. If the opponent vacates the community space, that's an invitation to move in. It can't be a blind rush in, however, as that will often lead one to be open to a decent counter puncher.

 

[futsaowingchun]

The closer you get to your opponent the easier it is for a bridge to occur so you dont need to seek it. it comes to you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The closer you get to your opponent the easier it is for a bridge to occur so you dont need to seek it. it comes to you.

This is only true if your opponent doesn't retreat. My guess is that the bridge is created when the opportunity for the bridge to exist is available. My other assumption is that outside jabs and inside slips are not good for trying to bridge using the arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

how do you form one when the opponent refuses to offer you one.

During a fists flying situation, how to obtain an arm contact? This is the kind of training that I'm very interested in.

I have a set of strategies that I like. But I'm interested to hear other's strategies on this.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The closer you get to your opponent the easier it is for a bridge to occur so you dont need to seek it. it comes to you.

One day one of my senior SC brotherd said, "if I just keep moving aroud and avoid contact, none of your techniques will work on me". His commenent had bothered me for a long time.

I wasn't sure this could be possible. I had tested this in one of my wrestling match. Within 15 minutes, my opponent cannot touch my arms or my body.

Of course if your opponent doesn't want to fight, you don't have to fight. But what if you do want to fight (such as in a tournament)?

 

[windwalker099]

During a fists flying situation, how to obtain an arm contact? This is the kind of training that I'm very interested in.

Used to train Tibetan White Crane as a teenager long ago, sister style to hop gar,,,many of the same concepts used..

Ron Dong, Shifu Gorge Long

Used to spar with those who boxed and other styles, proving, testing my own training.
Long arm and foot work worked quite well...
Something a little different ...The main advantage range, and foot work designed to work together.

Hop Gar, in application and strategy uses many of the same movements as Tibetan White Crane

 

[wckf92]

This is line dependent. HFY doesn't teach it as a cooperative drill. For us, it's meant to be combat stimulus and response.

Good point. WC is a vast community.

how do you form a bridge, and more specifically how do you form one when the opponent refuses to offer you one.

If the opponent refuses to offer you a bridge, then if we are talking about a combative environment...it would seem fast footwork, angling, and closing the distance skills are in order, with the simple goal being to punch him in the face or to land a solid kick.

 

[wckf92]

Of course if your opponent doesn't want to fight, you don't have to fight. But what if you do want to fight (such as in a tournament)?

I guess I can see your point here, but it seems a little strange to me. Why would someone compete in a tournament just to avoid contact? I would hope the judges would step in and throw the dude out of the tournament or at least penalize him for not engaging his opponent.

 

[wckf92]

During a fists flying situation, how to obtain an arm contact? This is the kind of training that I'm very interested in.

I have a set of strategies that I like. But I'm interested to hear other's strategies on this.

Something to keep in mind is that not all WC intentionally seeks "arm contact" as a first encounter. IMO, the first encounter or physical exchange is my fist landing on his face, or my kick impacting its target...then it unfolds from there.

 

[wab25]

I'm talking about training (not fighting). This is a general MA issue. The process for

- Judo guys to obtain clinch.
- WC guys to set up sticky hand.
- Taiji guys to set up push hand.
- BJJ guys to start ground game.
- ...

should be addresses also.

The OP made a video, showing the point that he wanted to demonstrate. That does not mean that the OP does not know how to get into that position, or does not train to do so. It means, that he wanted to spend the time on this point in particular.

If you watch a video of a BJJ guy applying a choke from the mount... you will complain that he did not first show how to close distance, break balance, apply throw, maintain contact, compose mount and then look for choke. The reality is that each of these details are important enough to have their own video... and many are interchangeable... this entrance can go to many throws, each throw can go to many pins, each pin can go to many submissions....

The other point is that there are many, many ways to end up in mount.... but the point being discussed will be the same, no matter how we got there.

I know for a fact, that Judo guys spend a lot of time training to obtain a clinch. I have spent many hours on the mat with Judo guys teaching drills and approaches and training just to get the clinch....

A simple example is if I keep my arms straight up, you will never be able to apply under hook on me.

Lets take the simple approach. You keep your arms straight up.... I punch you in the face. If you keep your arms straight up, I keep punching you in the face. At some point, you may want to lower your arms to block the punch, at which point, arm to arm contact is made. If you are happy to leave your arms up, while I am punching you in the face... I am happy to oblige....

Take the other approach, you punch me in the face.... I don't like to keep my arms straight up, when people punch me... I try to block or parry... which means arm contact is made.

Yes, I know, Zombie spears is always the better approach.... But we can't all do Chinese Wrestling....