How to deal with forward pressure in Chi Sao

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,017
Reaction score
6,528
Location
Lexington, KY
Something to keep in mind is that not all WC intentionally seeks "arm contact" as a first encounter. IMO, the first encounter or physical exchange is my fist landing on his face, or my kick impacting its target...then it unfolds from there.
When I was learning WT from @yak sao , the concept was just to try hitting the opponent in the face. The arm bridge was just something that happened and that you had to deal with if the opponent put their arms in the way. It wasn't something that you sought out intentionally.
 

wckf92

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
1,525
Reaction score
507
When I was learning WT from @yak sao , the concept was just to try hitting the opponent in the face. The arm bridge was just something that happened and that you had to deal with if the opponent put their arms in the way. It wasn't something that you sought out intentionally.

Exactly
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,199
Reaction score
3,319
Location
Phoenix, AZ

When I was learning WT from @yak sao , the concept was just to try hitting the opponent in the face. The arm bridge was just something that happened and that you had to deal with if the opponent put their arms in the way. It wasn't something that you sought out intentionally.
That's a big difference between WC/WT/VT (and most striking arts) and grappling arts like Shuai Chiao. Grapplers want to get ahold of you. In WC that's secondary to hitting you.

So by this logic, WC chi-sau isn't training you to seek to make a bridge and "stick" so much as it's training you to slip through. Lat sau jik chung. :)
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
12,587
Reaction score
4,879
So by this logic, WC chi-sau isn't training you to seek to make a bridge and "stick" so much as it's training you to slip through
This makes the most sense so far and changes the initial direction I was looking in. You punch -> Someone defends and creates the bridge through trying to defend against your punch -> Apply WC concept against a person's defense. This makes more sense to me and is more realistic to trying to initial the bridge Like Wang stated everything starts with the punch.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,464
Reaction score
7,221
During a fists flying situation, how to obtain an arm contact? This is the kind of training that I'm very interested in.

I have a set of strategies that I like. But I'm interested to hear other's strategies on this.

People tend to fence though. And provide that bridge.
 

windwalker099

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 8, 2022
Messages
130
Reaction score
59
Some of whats shown in the clip my help to provide a different perspective.

 
Last edited:

Callen

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
286
Reaction score
217
During a fists flying situation, how to obtain an arm contact? This is the kind of training that I'm very interested in.
Something to keep in mind is that not all WC intentionally seeks "arm contact" as a first encounter. IMO, the first encounter or physical exchange is my fist landing on his face, or my kick impacting its target...then it unfolds from there.
When I was learning WT from @yak sao , the concept was just to try hitting the opponent in the face. The arm bridge was just something that happened and that you had to deal with if the opponent put their arms in the way. It wasn't something that you sought out intentionally.
This makes the most sense so far and changes the initial direction I was looking in. You punch -> Someone defends and creates the bridge through trying to defend against your punch -> Apply WC concept against a person's defense. This makes more sense to me and is more realistic to trying to initial the bridge Like Wang stated everything starts with the punch.

All of these points present well-rounded perspectives on the importance of how we train, IMO. I also agree with @geezer and his assessment on Lat Sau Jik Chung (arguably the most important part of the maxim, Loi Lau, Hoi Sung; Lat Sau Jik Chung 靘駁,拇渲).

Wong Shun Leung used to say that the only range in Wing Chun is the range in which we could hit. I believe this was one way in which he continually reinforced the habit of placing the idea of Lat Sau Jik Chung at the center of skill development.

From my training, we never intentionally create a bridge first in an attempt to hit or control. The goal is to strike the target with chained attacks, not to chase the opponents hands. This is implemented by utilizing Lin Siu Daai Da (simultaneous attack and defense 瘨撣嗆), which is thought by many to be the science of Wing Chun. The hands go forward. If the way is clear, hit. If the way is blocked, clear the way and hit. In this way of thinking, hitting is the focus and a bridge (contact) is simply a momentary byproduct/consequence of removing an obstacle to facilitate the hit.

We strive for a reflex set that is simple, direct and efficient. When developing these reflexes, keeping Lat Sau Jik Chung as a constant compass can make an impact on how we learn. In doing so, the concepts and principles of the system such as: attack and defense together, chase center (Jui Ying 餈賢耦), hands on top, take position (Chiu Ying 敶), ground power (Lik Chung Dei Hei 敺啗絲), etc can be properly developed while keeping in mind; that when the hands are free of obstruction, attack instinctively. Training realistically to be able to hit from where the hands are at any moment (without a bridge) builds important skill, reinforces the correct Wing Chun system mechanics, and can remove the idea that it is necessary to establish contact first before hitting. Something as simple as working the focus mitts can reinforce good hitting habits that are easily digestible by the system's core concepts and mechanics.
 

wckf92

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
1,525
Reaction score
507
All of these points present well-rounded perspectives on the importance of how we train, IMO. I also agree with @geezer and his assessment on Lat Sau Jik Chung (arguably the most important part of the maxim, Loi Lau, Hoi Sung; Lat Sau Jik Chung 靘駁,拇渲).

Wong Shun Leung used to say that the only range in Wing Chun is the range in which we could hit. I believe this was one way in which he continually reinforced the habit of placing the idea of Lat Sau Jik Chung at the center of skill development.

From my training, we never intentionally create a bridge first in an attempt to hit or control. The goal is to strike the target with chained attacks, not to chase the opponents hands. This is implemented by utilizing Lin Siu Daai Da (simultaneous attack and defense 瘨撣嗆), which is thought by many to be the science of Wing Chun. The hands go forward. If the way is clear, hit. If the way is blocked, clear the way and hit. In this way of thinking, hitting is the focus and a bridge (contact) is simply a momentary byproduct/consequence of removing an obstacle to facilitate the hit.

We strive for a reflex set that is simple, direct and efficient. When developing these reflexes, keeping Lat Sau Jik Chung as a constant compass can make an impact on how we learn. In doing so, the concepts and principles of the system such as: attack and defense together, chase center (Jui Ying 餈賢耦), hands on top, take position (Chiu Ying 敶), ground power (Lik Chung Dei Hei 敺啗絲), etc can be properly developed while keeping in mind; that when the hands are free of obstruction, attack instinctively. Training realistically to be able to hit from where the hands are at any moment (without a bridge) builds important skill, reinforces the correct Wing Chun system mechanics, and can remove the idea that it is necessary to establish contact first before hitting. Something as simple as working the focus mitts can reinforce good hitting habits that are easily digestible by the system's core concepts and mechanics.

Excellent post by Callen...as always. Thanks dude!
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,681
Reaction score
3,848
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Why would someone compete in a tournament just to avoid contact? I would hope the judges would step in and throw the dude out of the tournament or at least penalize him for not engaging his opponent.
If I win the 1st round, I may try to tie the 2nd round and also the 3rd round. This way I'll have win-tie-tie and I'll end to be the winner. After I have won the 1st round, I may try not to get into any close contact. I can use many small tricks to fool the judge so the judge won't call me "avoid fighting". For example, I may throw a punch (or kick) and then quickly move back.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,681
Reaction score
3,848
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
You keep your arms straight up.... I punch you in the face.
That's one good strategy to establish arm contact - you punch me, I block your punch, the arm contact starts from there.

In another forum there is a thread that talk about "the similiarity and difference between Taiji and Systema". I said that

- Systema training starts from no contact.
- Taiji training starts from contact.

When I see a clip like this, I just have to express my concern. I'm not just show my concern on the OP's video. My concern is toward all those kind videos.

 
Last edited:

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
It's probably a good idea to point out that Chun's bridging concepts are only fraction of traditional southern Shaolin bridging. Like, maybe 3/12 or 4/12.

To KFWs point though, the goal of WC and Tai Chi is a little more than just bridging with sticky hands or push hands. Ok, Way more, and I don't know if videos like the OP are the best way to get this across. Older Chun books with pictures of applications are really useful, you can actually see attack/defense scenarios that are IMHO a little easier to compare to standard boxing/wrestling, and even more exotic formats like Shuai Jiao.
 
Last edited:

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
That's one good strategy to establish arm contact - you punch me, I block your punch, the arm contact starts from there.
I've used bridging like this in competition. Blocked a solid cross aimed at my face. One of my sunnier moments of actual defense. Couldn't capitalize on it, but somebody later on said they recognized the art. I was stoked, the person who made the comment was big league.

Single finger Shaolin Chan works.
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
Took this shot from J. Yimm Lee and Bruce Lee's book on Wing Chun. 1972. There's a whole sequence there but this one stood out as a good starting point on bridging (and this is by no means limited to Chun it's in many other related styles).

Whatever you see here, bong sau, Crane, Dragon, it's a very broad concept and I'm pretty sure it was incorporated into JKD too. It's def in Jun Fan.
 

Attachments

  • 20221115_121423.jpg
    20221115_121423.jpg
    523 KB · Views: 22

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
12,587
Reaction score
4,879
Couldn't capitalize on it, but somebody later on said they recognized the art.
This is what all martial artist should strive for. Miss or land, our system should be recognized in sparring and in competition. I think this is the highest comment that we can get as a martial artist. Our worst day would be the day our fighting just looks like untrained fighting. As martial artists, we should be champions of our system and our training.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,681
Reaction score
3,848
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Our worst day would be the day our fighting just looks like untrained fighting. As martial artists, we should be champions of our system and our training.
A trained person should be able to

- recognize opportunity, and
- take advantage on it.

This knowlegde will always be with you after you have trained.
 
Last edited:

Latest Discussions

Top