How important is rank in a school owner, really?

[skribs]

As many of you are aware, I've recently moved halfway across the country, and have since joined a BJJ/Muay Thai gym, and more recently a new TKD school as well.

So far, I love the BJJ school. I'm not nearly as enthusiastic about the TKD. The problem is, it's about the only KKW school in the area accepting black belts from outside the school. So if I want to get my 4th degree, I feel this is my only option.

There are three main things that make me feel like I'm wasting my time here.

• There is a lot of pomp and circumstance, by that I mean scripted events that often involve a call-and-response. There's a lot of different systems that are in place, such as different types of stripes and patches, levels of black belts, a separate white belt system for younger kids. I'm 2 months in and I feel like I've almost got a grasp on all of these processes.
• This is a school which has "levels" of each black belt degree. 1st degree has at least 7 levels (I'm not sure how many there are, and neither are the black belts). 2nd and 3rd only have 2. But I need to start 3rd degree over and go through these levels. He might accelerate them for me (because I've been active as a 4th degree for 4 years and already went through all of the intermediate tests at my previous school), or he might not. If he doesn't, I'll need to wait at least 3 years before being able to test.
• This school is incredibly low on contact. One-step sparring is 100% compliant. They barely hold kicking shields. In sparring, he says "light contact" isn't allowed, we have to do "tap sparring" instead. We don't do headshots at any level, not even light contact. When we do conditioning in class, we'll do two sets of 3 jumping jacks, 2 pushups, and 1 situp. The kicker for me was when we were doing one-step drills and he said, "Don't actually block the arm because you might hurt them."

So yes, I feel like I'm wasting my time. But if I want my 4th degree, he's got a monopoly on it.

At this point, I'm probably going to wait 3-5 years anyway before opening a school. But I have to wonder if I'd be better off throwing myself 100% into BJJ and Muay Thai. Right now I'm at about a 50/50 split. I feel like I'm wasting time in TKD, but not in BJJ/MT.

To be clear, I'm fine going through his timeline if it feels appropriate. I don't mind going through the levels as fast as I'm ready for them, and if that's 1 year or more for each level, that's perfectly understandable. What I don't want is to be ready for level 1 six months in, and have to wait another six months because I haven't been at his school for a year; and then be ready for level 2 a few months after that and have to wait nine months to be eligible...

I'm planning on leaving KKW either way. I'm not 100% onboard with everything they do. However, if given a choice, I'd rather leave as a 4th degree so there's no question whether or not I could handle getting my KKW 4th degree. But I think I would have a much better school if I spend the next 3-5 years focusing on MMA than splitting time between MMA and a TKD school where I don't feel like I'm allowed to learn anything useful.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If I went to a TKD school, knowing how the testing works for it..I wouldn't care in the slightest if you're a 3rd or 4th degree. If someone was going to a TKD school, not knowing anything about TKD, they also most likely wouldn't care. My guess would be that, at most, 5% of prospective students will care, and of those, some will decide to/not to join based on other more important criteria anyway. And the 5% is honestly higher than what I think-that's the maximum limit for my guess.

So if 5% of potential students factoring it in matter to you, enough to spend 3 years on it, spending what I'd guess is at least a couple thousand for 3 years training and the testing, and (based on how you described it), having your skills deteriorate, all for an org you won't continue with, go for it. But I'd bet that having a higher rank in BJJ and being able to share more martial knowledge with your students via MMA (and not splitting time) will help you out a lot more in the long run. Both professionally and for your own MA journey.

 

[skribs]

having your skills deteriorate

I was thinking about it last night and this morning. I am still maintaining practical application through the BJJ/MT classes, so I feel like that will at least help with the deterioration. And, what I don't get an opportunity to work on in those classes is teaching. I do love teaching TKD, and if I quit, that opportunity goes out the window.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I was thinking about it last night and this morning. I am still maintaining practical application through the BJJ/MT classes, so I feel like that will at least help with the deterioration. And, what I don't get an opportunity to work on in those classes is teaching. I do love teaching TKD, and if I quit, that opportunity goes out the window.

MT is still different, even if it's striking. I've found that unless I'm making a conscious effort to practice my other skills at MT, it becomes very easy to spar and apply just the stuff we drill in that class.

And true, that would be unfortunate. But, it would only temporarily go out the window, until you open your own school. Or if you wanted you could do something similar to what dirty dog did and find a YMCA nearby to teach - you just won't make a whole lot of many (if any).

 

[skribs]

And true, that would be unfortunate. But, it would only temporarily go out the window, until you open your own school. Or if you wanted you could do something similar to what dirty dog did and find a YMCA nearby to teach - you just won't make a whole lot of many (if any).

When I do go to open a school, that's where I'm going to start.

But that doesn't change the question in the OP. Because if I do that, then I'm going to be a 3rd degree teaching those classes at the YMCA on Mondays and Wednesdays (most likely), and then doing BJJ/Muay Thai the rest of the week. And then when I've got a student base enough to open my own school, I'm likely to still be a 3rd degree, because I likely wouldn't've done any formal TKD training or testing under another Master in that time.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

When I do go to open a school, that's where I'm going to start.

But that doesn't change the question in the OP. Because if I do that, then I'm going to be a 3rd degree teaching those classes at the YMCA on Mondays and Wednesdays (most likely), and then doing BJJ/Muay Thai the rest of the week. And then when I've got a student base enough to open my own school, I'm likely to still be a 3rd degree, because I likely wouldn't've done any formal TKD training or testing under another Master in that time.

From your journey, I personally think that spending two days a week teaching as the primary instructor will do a lot more for you now then continuing to learn under the school you mentioned. The only thing you have to decide, is if you are okay being a 3rd degree for potentially the rest of your life - but then you'd also have to decide if you'd be okay being a 4th degree for the rest of your life. Or find someone who'd be willing to do remote training/advancement if you can't find a local teacher you wish to rank under.

 

[skribs]

The only thing you have to decide, is if you are okay being a 3rd degree for potentially the rest of your life - but then you'd also have to decide if you'd be okay being a 4th degree for the rest of your life. Or find someone who'd be willing to do remote training/advancement if you can't find a local teacher you wish to rank under.

I would like to keep that particular discussion as out-of-scope for this thread. It is definitely related, and definitely something on my mind now and something I will need to figure out at some point. But both this topic and that are such a big can of worms, I'd like to focus on this one. I don't need the worms to stampede.

 

[wab25]

But that doesn't change the question in the OP. Because if I do that, then I'm going to be a 3rd degree teaching those classes at the YMCA on Mondays and Wednesdays (most likely), and then doing BJJ/Muay Thai the rest of the week. And then when I've got a student base enough to open my own school, I'm likely to still be a 3rd degree, because I likely wouldn't've done any formal TKD training or testing under another Master in that time.

You need to decide what your goals are. That will tell you what you need to do here.

If your goal is to open a KKW TKD school, then you need to meet their requirements. Therefore, you would have to go through the process at your new TKD school, no matter how much you agree with it or even like it.

If you you just want to open a martial arts school that teaches TKD as part of the curriculum.... then you could do that right now. Outside of TKD, nobody really understands the ranks and politics anyway. Also, there are no standards about who can teach martial arts.

One thing to check on, is if you want your students to compete. If so, make sure you understand the requirements for the competitions you want your students to compete. If they do not need to be from a KKW school to compete, then you are free to do what you want. There are many competitions that do not require KKW membership. But, if you want your students to compete in KKW member competitions.... then you would need to satisfy KKW requirements.

Once you figure out what type of school you want to open, that will help decide your course of action with your new TKD school. Set your long term goals first, then work backwards to attain them.

 

[HighKick]

From your journey, I personally think that spending two days a week teaching as the primary instructor will do a lot more for you now then continuing to learn under the school you mentioned. The only thing you have to decide, is if you are okay being a 3rd degree for potentially the rest of your life - but then you'd also have to decide if you'd be okay being a 4th degree for the rest of your life. Or find someone who'd be willing to do remote training/advancement if you can't find a local teacher you wish to rank under.

I was thinking much the same. Even though the TKD school environment is not ideal, there are still opportunities to learn, advance, and hone practical skills for the future business of owning a school.

@skribs , are there external ways to maintain your TKD hard skills such as tournaments or open sparring at other schools? Maybe even after class sparring at the current school?
I do get the desire to get to KKW 4th Dan. Love it or hate it, there are tangible advantages, even if you do not keep the KKW banner at your future school.
Is there any conduit that would allow you to do a travel test under your old school instructor in conjunction with say taking a KKW referee course? This seems to be happening more frequently.
Have you tried reaching out to USATKD (.org, there are a few knockoff websites) or WTMU? There are others in the US that are very active in KKW functions stateside, you will just have to sleuth them out.

 

[skribs]

Is there any conduit that would allow you to do a travel test under your old school instructor in conjunction with say taking a KKW referee course? This seems to be happening more frequently.

I don't think so. Going to try and make a long story short.

Early 2021 I told my Master that I wanted to move, but before that wanted to get 4th degree and the Master cert. His attitude towards me after that was like I'd already given my 2 week notice. He would keep asking, "when are you moving?" And I kept telling him "After I get my 4th degree and cert."

But he stopped teaching me as much, he no longer had time for private lessons, he didn't bother to properly remember my testing requirements*, and he started cutting my hours and responsibilities to the point where I basically wasn't doing anything.

*I was the highest ranking student, with testing requirements that he himself hadn't touched in years. For example, he showed me Sword Form #5 ten different times, and every time it was completely different. By his own admission, he hadn't done it in a while so he was rusty.

Basically, I got the idea that since I wasn't going to be his legacy, I wasn't worth his time, and that I was never going to get my 4th degree there. So in early 2022 I gave him a month notice and then left.

Have you tried reaching out to USATKD (.org, there are a few knockoff websites) or WTMU? There are others in the US that are very active in KKW functions stateside, you will just have to sleuth them out.

I haven't yet. Social networking is not one of my strong suits, although it may be a necessity if I do leave the school I'm at. Neither is research.

If I do leave my school (which I'm still on the fence on, but leaning towards sticking it out), I will probably start that research.

 

[skribs]

I do get the desire to get to KKW 4th Dan. Love it or hate it, there are tangible advantages, even if you do not keep the KKW banner at your future school.

It does give a lot of options.

I could stay with KKW. Which isn't my 100% ideal, but I've gotten my curriculum to a point where it actually wouldn't be that difficult to do a KKW school instead of a Skribs school.

I also get the benefit that nobody could look at me and say that I left the organization because "He couldn't meet the requirements".

 

[skribs]

If you you just want to open a martial arts school that teaches TKD as part of the curriculum.... then you could do that right now. Outside of TKD, nobody really understands the ranks and politics anyway. Also, there are no standards about who can teach martial arts.

I think inside TKD most folks don't even understand the rank and politics!

Case-in-point, I posted a similar thread on /r/Taekwondo on reddit, and half the black belts posting there don't seem to have a full grasp. Including a 4th Dan who was asking follow-up questions to the group on KKW's current policies and offerings for black belt promotions and Master classes.

As to the first point, TKD wouldn't just be part of the curriculum, it would be the foundation and base of the curriculum. The other arts would be sprinkled in as flavoring once students have established their foundation. At the beginner level, I plan to focus on what tends to be basic techniques in TKD (punches, kicks, blocks, stances) and a more traditional style of form/kata/poomsae (whichever word you want to use), and at the advanced level shift the focus to application - sparring and ho sin sul (self-defense). The later will be where the HKD, BJJ, and MT will likely come more into play.

Based on my experience, TKD tends to lend itself better to teaching beginners than the combat sports. (I put that first part in bold because this has been my experience in the classes I've attended, and other combat sport dojos may be different). So I want to lean more heavily on that in the beginner level.

I also want to do fancy spinning jump kicks in my class. Not for any strategy reason, but because they're fun. And that definitely leans more into TKD than into the others.

 

[wab25]

I also get the benefit that nobody could look at me and say that I left the organization because "He couldn't meet the requirements".

Anyone who judges a person by their belt and or number of thingies on their belt, is telling you more about their own insecurities than anything else. I would not worry at all about what those people say. I certainly would not let them be a driving factor for me to attain the next rank. There are a lot of good reasons and benefits to getting that next rank.... but satisfying those people is not one of them.

A martial artist should be judged on their ability, their understanding and their character. If they are teaching, they should be judged on their ability to communicate and transmit knowledge and ability to their students. Belt colors, and thingies on your belt have very little to do with any of this.

 

[wab25]

As to the first point, TKD wouldn't just be part of the curriculum, it would be the foundation and base of the curriculum.

As it should be, given your experience and training.

 

[WaterGal]

The number of stripes on your belt won't be terribly important to most of your students. They'll care more about what you can do for them. Are the classes fun, are you a good instructor, do your students feel like they're making progress and mastering skills, is there a good community, etc. That stuff matters more than what your rank is.

But, within in the KKW system, having that 4th dan is an important milestone. You'll need to have your KKW 4th dan certificate and pass the KKW Master Instructor Course before you can promote any of your students to KKW 1st dan.

If you're not happy with the school you're at, you may be able to connect with another 5th dan or higher instructor and travel to them to test. That is a thing that happens sometimes.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm planning on leaving KKW either way.

Out of that entire post, this is the only sentence that really matters. You're planning on leaving the KKW. I assume that means you plan on teaching as an independent and awarding dojang rank. Cool. That means you're the Kwanjangnim of whatever you call your system. Poof. You're a 9th Dan. The same way the heads of the original Kwan got their ranks. The same way the first head of ANY system got their rank.

One of the best teachers I know spent 20+ years teaching as a MDK 3rd Dan. It didn't matter to him. It didn't matter to his students.

The answer to the question in the thread title is "not". New students don't understand the rank structure anyway, and experienced students know how little the belt matters.

 

[skribs]

You're a 9th Dan. The same way the heads of the original Kwan got their ranks. The same way the first head of ANY system got their rank.

I know that's the stereotype. I don't plan on doing that. I may have to figure out some means of getting to higher rank, but that's something for future Skribs to figure out.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I know that's the stereotype.

No it's not. It's a matter of historical record. The founders were, by and large, gifted martial artists. They also were trained to low level Dan ranks and self promoted from there. Because they were forming new styles and new organizations. There was nobody over them to promote them.

 

[Mider]

As many of you are aware, I've recently moved halfway across the country, and have since joined a BJJ/Muay Thai gym, and more recently a new TKD school as well.

So far, I love the BJJ school. I'm not nearly as enthusiastic about the TKD. The problem is, it's about the only KKW school in the area accepting black belts from outside the school. So if I want to get my 4th degree, I feel this is my only option.

There are three main things that make me feel like I'm wasting my time here.

• There is a lot of pomp and circumstance, by that I mean scripted events that often involve a call-and-response. There's a lot of different systems that are in place, such as different types of stripes and patches, levels of black belts, a separate white belt system for younger kids. I'm 2 months in and I feel like I've almost got a grasp on all of these processes.
• This is a school which has "levels" of each black belt degree. 1st degree has at least 7 levels (I'm not sure how many there are, and neither are the black belts). 2nd and 3rd only have 2. But I need to start 3rd degree over and go through these levels. He might accelerate them for me (because I've been active as a 4th degree for 4 years and already went through all of the intermediate tests at my previous school), or he might not. If he doesn't, I'll need to wait at least 3 years before being able to test.
• This school is incredibly low on contact. One-step sparring is 100% compliant. They barely hold kicking shields. In sparring, he says "light contact" isn't allowed, we have to do "tap sparring" instead. We don't do headshots at any level, not even light contact. When we do conditioning in class, we'll do two sets of 3 jumping jacks, 2 pushups, and 1 situp. The kicker for me was when we were doing one-step drills and he said, "Don't actually block the arm because you might hurt them."

So yes, I feel like I'm wasting my time. But if I want my 4th degree, he's got a monopoly on it.

At this point, I'm probably going to wait 3-5 years anyway before opening a school. But I have to wonder if I'd be better off throwing myself 100% into BJJ and Muay Thai. Right now I'm at about a 50/50 split. I feel like I'm wasting time in TKD, but not in BJJ/MT.

To be clear, I'm fine going through his timeline if it feels appropriate. I don't mind going through the levels as fast as I'm ready for them, and if that's 1 year or more for each level, that's perfectly understandable. What I don't want is to be ready for level 1 six months in, and have to wait another six months because I haven't been at his school for a year; and then be ready for level 2 a few months after that and have to wait nine months to be eligible...

I'm planning on leaving KKW either way. I'm not 100% onboard with everything they do. However, if given a choice, I'd rather leave as a 4th degree so there's no question whether or not I could handle getting my KKW 4th degree. But I think I would have a much better school if I spend the next 3-5 years focusing on MMA than splitting time between MMA and a TKD school where I don't feel like I'm allowed to learn anything useful.

I think rank is important but not every system treats rank the same I suppose

like, if you’re a so and so degree black belt in judo or BJJ, you likely had to show your skill and keep doing so, I’m guessing not every school is the same

 

[isshinryuronin]

A martial artist should be judged on their ability, their understanding and their character. If they are teaching, they should be judged on their ability to communicate and transmit knowledge and ability to their students. Belt colors, and thingies on your belt have very little to do with any of this.

I have been fortunate enough to have trained where ability and belt rank match. Of course, this is meaningless without knowing the standards used. Again, I have been fortunate enough to have trained where standards were high and our belts compared well with higher ranks from other schools.

Rank is only as good as the teacher who bestows it and their vision of what a blackbelt should look like.
Once, this was a matter of taking pride in not only their product and reputation, but that of the art itself. Nowadays this is the exception rather than the rule.