How Important is Fighting in YOUR Martial Art?

[ShotoNoob]

Mmm. I have to disagree. Okinawa has criteria to determine if karate styles are traditional. They only recognise four styles as traditional.

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On how you define traditional karate, I accede. I'm not looking at the Okinawan Masters you particularly speak of as the defining judges of what is and what is not traditional karate. We have a definitional difference. You have much more in-depth knowledge of your defining principles I grant you that hands down.

'tippy tappy' is the derogatory description of karate and TKD sparring introduced by on of the MMA is best brigade. Okinawan karate does not have 'tippy tappy'. They don't spar this way as a general principle. There are other ways they test their skills.

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And I don't think "tippy tappy" is traditional karate--PERIOD. People in karate uniforms at karate schools sparring "tippy tappy" should NEVER use the word traditional and probably should STRIKE the word karate from their activity as well.

Not at all. Now I'd never heard of Richard Heselton but I'm assuming he is a top competition competitor. Whether the baggers would call what he does 'tippy tappy' you would have to ask them. I think most of their posts are a disservice to all serious and dedicated practitioners. That's why I hold them in such low esteem.

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Heselton practices a non-Okinawan style of karate. He's of English decent I think, but had worked his way to the top in the Japanese karate national tournaments. I don't abide by all of Heselton's training regiment but I respect his very high personal dedication & Achievement and he has won great respect from the official Japanese karate associations. He's a good example of revealing how prejudiced those 'baggers' kumite posts are .

Agree totally, but the baggers continue to post the worst examples of any art they can find to make their point that all other arts suck.

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Precisely. This is a main reason that I study Shotokan academically. Some of the practice of it is so bad. Very bad really. Yet Shotokan done well is really very effective. Of course we are back to a definition question of what is Shotokan "done well." I don't care for Shotokan myself, I think there's lots to criticize. Yet again, Shotokan done well is very effective, a very effective method of self defense for commom civil situations. Shotokan with it's heavy emphasis on proper body mechanics is well suited for MMA. The key is to train it competently, and Richard Heselton is a fine example of the Shotokan[?] karate style & conventions done well.
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That's my opinion and I have plenty of company among Japan's reigning karateka.

 

[K-man]

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On how you define traditional karate, I accede. I'm not looking at the Okinawan Masters you particularly speak of as the defining judges of what is and what is not traditional karate. We have a definitional difference. You have much more in-depth knowledge of your defining principles I grant you that hands down.


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And I don't think "tippy tappy" is traditional karate--PERIOD. People in karate uniforms at karate schools sparring "tippy tappy" should NEVER use the word traditional and probably should STRIKE the word karate from their activity as well.


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Heselton practices a non-Okinawan style of karate. He's of English decent I think, but had worked his way to the top in the Japanese karate national tournaments. I don't abide by all of Heselton's training regiment but I respect his very high personal dedication & Achievement and he has won great respect from the official Japanese karate associations. He's a good example of revealing how prejudiced those 'baggers' kumite posts are .


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Precisely. This is a main reason that I study Shotokan academically. Some of the practice of it is so bad. Very bad really. Yet Shotokan done well is really very effective. Of course we are back to a definition question of what is Shotokan "done well." I don't care for Shotokan myself, I think there's lots to criticize. Yet again, Shotokan done well is very effective, a very effective method of self defense for commom civil situations. Shotokan with it's heavy emphasis on proper body mechanics is well suited for MMA. The key is to train it competently, and Richard Heselton is a fine example of the Shotokan karate style & conventions done well.
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That's my opinion and I have plenty of company among Japan's reigning karateka.

And I concur with all of that. You might remember I started another thread with an article that was saying Shotokan is effective for self defence. I think the shame is that that should have to be said in the first place.

 

[ShotoNoob]

And I concur with all of that. You might remember I started another thread with an article that was saying Shotokan is effective for self defence. I think the shame is that that should have to be said in the first place.

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Absolutely.... Criticizing something you can't do is easy. Getting good at what Gichin Funakoshi and his son designed, that's HARRRRRD.
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Like I say over and over, I don't personally care for Shotokan, would never practice it myself. I'm not Shotokan for every body to decide, I can only make a personal decision about it for me. Do I use Shotokan principles in my training & fighting. Answer, we all do. I'm just more aware of what those principles are....

 

[FriedRice]

I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either, especially against your training partner. If we had our old emoticons I'd be running up the BS flag on that one. Finally, punching someone in the face is unlikely to KO them either. Apart from that, cool post.

Are you serious? How else would fighters train for their fights? You need to go when the fight team trains, not the cardio kickboxing class.

Finally, punching someone in the face is unlikely to KO them either. Apart from that, cool post.

That's wrong. While I said "the face" for dramatic effects, I generally mean the head. But the chin is also part of the face or some to most of the chin, is. Parts of the temple can be a part of the face and a punch can certainly be on the border of both.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Are you serious? How else would fighters train for their fights? You need to go when the fight team trains, not the cardio kickboxing class.

How long do you think Mike Tyson's sparring partners would last if he sparred with them the same way he fought his opponents in the ring? No one in their right mind would spar full contact with full power all the time.

 

[FriedRice]

To me a fight is real. Not an exercise or a competition but, you know real. As in some person decides to beat the living crap out of you, mug you, rob you, rape you, kill you, maim you, hurt you. For some of motivation. That's fighting.

We spar, it's educational but is not fighting.

This sounds like the usual, Self Defense angle of romanticizing the usual, death match scenarios that hardly ever happens. Street fights usually ends when someone is KO'ed and are usually a lot easier than fighting an equally skilled competitor in MMA or other full contact sports fighting.

MMA fighting is indeed, trying to beat someone to death. Do you think that an MMA fighter is not putting all of whatever power he's got in trying to throw his fist, elbows, knees, etc. into his opponent's face, head, body, etc.? Or do you think that he's only putting in 50% or even 80% and then saving that 100% power & intensity only for the streets? Especially when tens of millions of dollars can be riding on their fight. Hell, even amateurs fighting for no money are fighting with everything they've got. The only reason no one dies is because the fight gets stopped and it's over.

If you had to defend yourself in the street, where you had to fight...what's the goal usually? Incapacitation probably, which is basically a KO. How is an MMA fight, where fighters strive for this incapacitation, any different than in the street? Once you KO your attacker in the street, are you going to keep soccer kicking his unconscious head until he goes into a coma or dies? Same with inside an MMA cage, the Ref or even the corner, stops the fight. In the street, many times, other people, bystanders, police, etc... stops the fight or even the winner, stops attacking someone who's KO'ed, on his own. I have around 700 videos of real fights and adding more almost every day. Only about 2-3 where someone actually died from being continuously beaten to death, and there overseas mostly, in really poor countries. Another 2-3 are from someone getting KO'ed with 1-2 punches and they crack their head on the cement and dies later at the hospital; these were unintentional deaths.

This covers the "beat the living crap out of you", the "kill you" and the "maim you" and "rape you" parts. Mugging and robbing, well that's easily resolved by just handing over your valuables, most of the time. If they didn't just suckerpunch you or surprised bashed you on the head with a brick to take your money, then they're probably not looking for a fight to begin with.

 

[K-man]

Are you serious? How else would fighters train for their fights? You need to go when the fight team trains, not the cardio kickboxing class.

100% effort! Mmm. You must be good. I reckon I can last about 45 seconds. Most of my guys slightly less. Absolutely tip top athlete ... let's say 2 minutes and that's probably overly generous. All effort is spread to take into effect the time you need to compete. How do I measure it. I get the guys to hit the big bag as hard as they can as fast as they can and I watch for when it starts to slow. Everybody paces themselves. Sprinters can give 100% for less than a minute. You and your mates must be super human.

That's wrong. While I said "the face" for dramatic effects, I generally mean the head. But the chin is also part of the face or some to most of the chin, is. Parts of the temple can be a part of the face and a punch can certainly be on the border of both.

If you say the face I assume you mean the face. Temple is the temple chin is the chin, if you want to do it properly on a martial art forum you can be specific like stomach 5.

 

[FriedRice]

How long do you think Mike Tyson's sparring partners would last if he sparred with them the same way he fought his opponents in the ring? No one in their right mind would spar full contact with full power all the time.

Are you serious? Do you know how much money you get to be Tyson's sparring partner? And he has many, many, many sparring partners. Tyson said, after he got out of jail for Rape, he had over $400 million dollars in cash, and this was in the 1990's, so that's like $700-800 million in today's money. $700 million can buy a lot of bodies for sparring. It's pretty amazing that you guy's find it so amazing that fighters sometimes to regularly spar at 100% power & intensity. Notice, I never said spar for KO's all the time. We spar light and medium also.

 

[K-man]

This sounds like the usual, Self Defense angle of romanticizing the usual, death match scenarios that hardly ever happens. Street fights usually ends when someone is KO'ed and are usually a lot easier than fighting an equally skilled competitor in MMA or other full contact sports fighting.

MMA fighting is indeed, trying to beat someone to death. Do you think that an MMA fighter is not putting all of whatever power he's got in trying to throw his fist, elbows, knees, etc. into his opponent's face, head, body, etc.? Or do you think that he's only putting in 50% or even 80% and then saving that 100% power & intensity only for the streets? Especially when tens of millions of dollars can be riding on their fight. Hell, even amateurs fighting for no money are fighting with everything they've got. The only reason no one dies is because the fight gets stopped and it's over.

If you had to defend yourself in the street, where you had to fight...what's the goal usually? Incapacitation probably, which is basically a KO. How is an MMA fight, where fighters strive for this incapacitation, any different than in the street? Once you KO your attacker in the street, are you going to keep soccer kicking his unconscious head until he goes into a coma or dies? Same with inside an MMA cage, the Ref or even the corner, stops the fight. In the street, many times, other people, bystanders, police, etc... stops the fight or even the winner, stops attacking someone who's KO'ed, on his own. I have around 700 videos of real fights and adding more almost every day. Only about 2-3 where someone actually died from being continuously beaten to death, and there overseas mostly, in really poor countries. Another 2-3 are from someone getting KO'ed with 1-2 punches and they crack their head on the cement and dies later at the hospital; these were unintentional deaths.

This covers the "beat the living crap out of you", the "kill you" and the "maim you" and "rape you" parts. Mugging and robbing, well that's easily resolved by just handing over your valuables, most of the time. If they didn't just suckerpunch you or surprised bashed you on the head with a brick to take your money, then they're probably not looking for a fight to begin with.

Well if someone on the street attacks me at 100%. I'll cover and wait knowing after 30 seconds or less the guy will be spent.

I know what you mean and I still don't agree with you. See RTDKCMB's post above.

 

[FriedRice]

I have seen folks sparring in the ring at 100%, but it's not the norm at most places. Usually it happens when egos or tempers get out of control. It's not the best way to learn and is a good way to get injured before you get to actual competition. Most boxers have enough sense to save that level of intensity for the actual match.

Sparring at 100% is not all the time, but certainly more regularly when a fight is coming up. About 2 weeks before the fight is when we tone it down and work more on cardio and such, to not risk injuries. That's why we wear headgear, etc. but injuries do happen and sometimes fighters have to pull out.

We spar light and medium also. But even at the 70% power agreement, it usually does spike to 100% at times and then calms down. Just depends on who's sparring and against who else. Crap happens.

The folks at the Militech gym famously did spar 100% as a regular thing, leading to lots of knock outs and injuries in training. They produced some good fighters, but I suspect they also suffered a lot of unnecessary brain damage.

This is just a common practice in fighting gyms. Boxing gyms have been doing this since ever. Combat sport is certainly a risk. You should check out this reality show called "White Collar Brawlers" where they train White Collars noobs who never fought to Box because they have beef with someone at their work and wants to fight it out. They only have like a month or so, and starts sparring after 2 weeks of training. One guy said after his first sparring session, "it's a real fight".

 

[FriedRice]

Well if someone on the street attacks me at 100%. I'll cover and wait knowing after 30 seconds or less the guy will be spent.

I know what you mean and I still don't agree with you. See RTDKCMB's post above.

If an MMA fighter attacks you, I bet you'd get KO'ed with the first few strikes. But I doubt that, not gassing after 30 seconds, would be one of his problems.

 

[Shai Hulud]

It's pretty amazing that you guy's find it so amazing that fighters sometimes to regularly spar at 100% power & intensity.

Even fighters in the UFC, on Bellator or on K-1 or Strikeforce have to pace themselves evenly. It's rare that you find people on full-steam and maximum capacity for a straight 5-minute round. Michael Bisping has excellent cardio, but even he paces himself. Strength happens in short bursts; I know powerlifters and strongmen will agree.

You may be mistaking intensity for strength. They're different. Intensity is spirit; strength is a skill. In that sense "Intensity" is a lot closer to "focus". Strength lies elsewhere.

 

[FriedRice]

100% effort! Mmm. You must be good. I reckon I can last about 45 seconds. Most of my guys slightly less. Absolutely tip top athlete ... let's say 2 minutes and that's probably overly generous. All effort is spread to take into effect the time you need to compete. How do I measure it. I get the guys to hit the big bag as hard as they can as fast as they can and I watch for when it starts to slow. Everybody paces themselves. Sprinters can give 100% for less than a minute. You and your mates must be super human.

What is this? Like some internet CSI or something? You can't be serious in thinking that I meant that 100% means to go non-stop at 100% power and 100% intensity, continuously....and be able to keep up the same level of power and intensity in the first 5 seconds all the way through the entire 2 minutes? C'mon, this absurd. Mayweather doesn't even do this in his $40,000,000 fights. Sparring at 100% power/intensity just means that you're going for KO's, if that helps you understand it better.

If you say the face I assume you mean the face. Temple is the temple chin is the chin, if you want to do it properly on a martial art forum you can be specific like stomach 5.

Ok sorry, I'd have to be more clear next time. Carry on, inspector.

 

[FriedRice]

Even fighters in the UFC, on Bellator or on K-1 or Strikeforce have to pace themselves evenly. It's rare that you find people on full-steam and maximum capacity for a straight 5-minute round. Michael Bisping has excellent cardio, but even he paces himself. Strength happens in short bursts; I know powerlifters and strongmen will agree.

You may be mistaking intensity for strength. They're different. Intensity is spirit; strength is a skill. In that sense "Intensity" is a lot closer to "focus". Strength lies elsewhere.

What I meant by 100% power sparring is to go for the KO.

 

[K-man]

If an MMA fighter attacks you, I bet you'd get KO'ed with the first few strikes. But I doubt that, not gassing after 30 seconds, would be one of his problems.

Big talk even for the internet. So are we talking your average MA guy or a champion like Bas Rutten. I don't like my chances with Bas but I don't have a problem with the MA guys that I teach.

But again in your post above, we've gone from 100% to 70%. That's a step in the direction of reality.

 

[K-man]

What is this? Like some internet CSI or something? You can't be serious in thinking that I meant that 100% means to go non-stop at 100% power and 100% intensity, continuously....and be able to keep up the same level of power and intensity in the first 5 seconds all the way through the entire 2 minutes? C'mon, this absurd. Mayweather doesn't even do this in his $40,000,000 fights. Sparring at 100% power/intensity just means that you're going for KO's, if that helps you understand it better.



Ok sorry, I'd have to be more clear next time. Carry on, inspector.

This is the internet. I can't read your mind. All I have is what you write. You are prone to hyperbole.

But I must remember, going for a knockout is 100%. So if I apply a choke and my partner taps, that would also be 100% and if I apply an armbar where I could dislocate the elbow or shoulder, that might also be 100%.

At least we got that straight.

 

[drop bear]

Well if someone on the street attacks me at 100%. I'll cover and wait knowing after 30 seconds or less the guy will be spent.

I know what you mean and I still don't agree with you. See RTDKCMB's post above.

You are going to eat punches in a street fight for 30 seconds on the grounds that the other guy will get tired?

You think you can cover and avoid punches for that long?

When was your last fight?

 

[K-man]

You are going to eat punches in a street fight for 30 seconds on the grounds that the other guy will get tired?

You think you can cover and avoid punches for that long?

When was your last fight?

Who said anything about the ground?

 

[drop bear]

Who said anything about the ground?

Sigh....

Grounds with an "s" it is a clever word for your reasoning.

You know grounds for divorce. That kind of thing.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Are you serious? Do you know how much money you get to be Tyson's sparring partner? And he has many, many, many sparring partners. Tyson said, after he got out of jail for Rape, he had over $400 million dollars in cash, and this was in the 1990's, so that's like $700-800 million in today's money. $700 million can buy a lot of bodies for sparring.

OK, I suggest you volunteer to be Mike Tyson's sparring partner and ask him to spar with you as though it is a title fight and then come back and tell us if you think the money was worth it

First you said this

It's pretty amazing that you guy's find it so amazing that fighters sometimes to regularly spar at 100% power & intensity. Notice, I never said spar for KO's all the time. We spar light and medium also.

Then you said this:

Sparring at 100% power/intensity just means that you're going for KO's, if that helps you understand it better.

Make up your mind.