How Fast Bruce Lee Progressed In The Martial Arts

Gweilo

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And I do not see anything can be called "achievement in martial art".

I disagree with this statement, he achieved the right to teach the Gweilo or who ever wanted to learn, when his so say statesman forbid it, he achieved world wide fame in the movie industry, he also made most of the western world take stock, of their beliefs about "Orientals". He also made an art form, and a way of training, that has evolved into modern day arts, and the blending of different arts, an acheivment in my book, no, he was not the 1st, but Imo, the loudest advocate of evolution in our arts. There is no fight records with the IFAA, or any other fight organisations, so to state that Bruce Lee acheived nothing, or nothing in the martial arts, is more to do with your opinion, and your opinion of modern day martial arts.
 

Cynik75

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...he achieved the right to teach the Gweilo or who ever wanted to learn, when his so say statesman forbid it,
Every one teenager does something forbidden. I am not impressed with "achivement". And 3 years old kid can teach somenthing 2 years old kid. Is it great achievement?
he achieved world wide fame in the movie industry
Being a famous actor of kungfu movies doesn't mean being good martial artis - MIchael Dudikoff played American Ninja without any martial arts skills
he also made most of the western world take stock, of their beliefs about "Orientals"
it is sociological /social achievement, not the martial arts one.
He also made an art form, and a way of training, that has evolved into modern day arts, and the blending of different arts, an acheivment in my book, no, he was not the 1st, but Imo, the loudest advocate of evolution in our arts.
His influence was marginal. Full contact sport existed long before Bruce and did not need any revolution. Non contact martial arts (so called traditional martial arts) has not change in any way because of Bruce. Present change in part of TMA was forced by huge number of losses in fight against full contact sports adepts. JKD was a niche and is a niche.

He popularized eastern martial arts (espiecially "kung fu") but it was not what he wanted. He wanted to create and popularize usefull martial art with modern training methodology (what was his first mistake because this methology was already in boxing, wrestling, judo etc) but he popuilarized only fancy moves from movies and gave to the common thinking the wrong vison of fighting (full of high jumps, roundhouse kicks, kiai screams etc)
 

Gweilo

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but he popuilarized only fancy moves from movies and gave to the common thinking the wrong vison of fighting (full of high jumps, roundhouse kicks, kiai screams etc)

I think you would call this artistic liscece of the film makers, and the other points you make are nit picking, yes the highly coreographed sequences were stylised, but there needed to be quality to pull it off, and I am amazed your knowledge is better than prominent martial artists of the day. Even though Lee was trying to evolve what they knew.
 
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Gweilo

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This is important, I would like to hear cyniks reply.
 

Gweilo

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I have run out of time, travelling tomorrow night for a trekking session in Borneo, so I will cut to the chase, @Cynik75 yes the video is a fake, but ask yourself this, why would martial artists want to fake someone who has not acheived anything?, my point being, if Lee had not acheived anything in Martial arts, there would be no value in copying, or association with him.
I collect 18th and early 19th century porcelain tea ware, there are many fake and counterfeit items out there for sale, why, because there is monetary value in association with influential or original things. You may feel there was no acheivments in martial arts by Lee, but the pure amount of copiests would suggest otherwise, otherwise what's the point.
 

Cynik75

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... why would martial artists want to fake someone who has not acheived anything?, my point being, if Lee had not acheived anything in Martial arts, there would be no value in copying, or association with him.
He is famous movie star. And people like to copy, parody etc. famous people. Thats all.

Can you please seriously explain me what was Bruce's influence on traing methodology or fighting tacticts, strategies, techniques. How many full contact sport fighters (or their coaches) has changed what they were/are doing because of Bruce? Has karatekas changed their methods? Or judokas? Or boxers? Or kung fu guys? Aikidoka? Jujiteiros? Sambists?
So maybe some real street combat badasses has changed something in their routine? Was Krav Mage created because Imi Lichtenfeld watched "Enter of the dragon"? Or maybe the footage of Bruce's one inch punch is the main training aid of police units in all of the world?

Exept small pack of JKD guys nobody has changed anything. But even JKD guys:
1) use sport methodology not invited by Bruce and draw knowledge from other sources (Inosanto lineage) from other masters
or
2) are complete denial of Bruce philosophy (Ted Wong lineage)

Show me please real influence of Bruce on the way contemporary people train and fight.

Or who did he defeated? Or who defeated whom using only Bruce's methods?
There are two types of achivements in martial arts:
1) you win fights (against decent opponent of course)
2) your followers/students win fights
The achievement in popularization of subject is not the achievement in this subject.
 
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Buka

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In all due respect, Bruce Lee died before some of you were born. I was already training. He influenced a lot of us.
 

Cynik75

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In all due respect, Bruce Lee died before some of you were born.
So did Jack the Ripper. What is the point in this statement?

. He influenced a lot of us.
Show me the example answering my questions. Bruce Lee inspired many people to start training martial arts but IT IS NOT ACHIEVEMENT IN MARTIAL ART.
Hugh Laurie probably inspired many people to became doctor. Does it mean he has achievements in medicine?

In all due respect but I prefer something other than cliche.
 

Buka

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So did Jack the Ripper. What is the point in this statement?


Show me the example answering my questions. Bruce Lee inspired many people to start training martial arts but IT IS NOT ACHIEVEMENT IN MARTIAL ART.
Hugh Laurie probably inspired many people to became doctor. Does it mean he has achievements in medicine?

In all due respect but I prefer something other than cliche.

I look at the letter capitalization as shouting. So relax.
 

Headhunter

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He is famous movie star. And people like to copy, parody etc. famous people. Thats all.

Can you please seriously explain me what was Bruce's influence on traing methodology or fighting tacticts, strategies, techniques. How many full contact sport fighters (or their coaches) has changed what they were/are doing because of Bruce? Has karatekas changed their methods? Or judokas? Or boxers? Or kung fu guys? Aikidoka? Jujiteiros? Sambists?
So maybe some real street combat badasses has changed something in their routine? Was Krav Mage created because Imi Lichtenfeld watched "Enter of the dragon"? Or maybe the footage of Bruce's one inch punch is the main training aid of police units in all of the world?

Exept small pack of JKD guys nobody has changed anything. But even JKD guys:
1) use sport methodology not invited by Bruce and draw knowledge from other sources (Inosanto lineage) from other masters
or
2) are complete denial of Bruce philosophy (Ted Wong lineage)

Show me please real influence of Bruce on the way contemporary people train and fight.

Or who did he defeated? Or who defeated whom using only Bruce's methods?
There are two types of achivements in martial arts:
1) you win fights (against decent opponent of course)
2) your followers/students win fights
The achievement in popularization of subject is not the achievement in this subject.
Have to agree. Now I like Bruce Lee I enjoy his films and obviously he was skilled and fast and sharp and knowledgeable but he's also very overrated because people think he can actually beat 100 men at once or he'd beat any heavyweight Mma fighter on earth which is nonsense.

Yeah Bruce Lee inspired people no doubt about it. But everything he did it was for his own gains. He didn't care about inspiring others or sharing his culture he wanted to make cash.

He started teaching because he was broke, he didn't teach for free out of love for martial arts like some instructors do. He did because he needed cash.

He developed his own style not to advance martial arts but because he realised his own training wasn't as good as he thought it was.

He did his fitness stuff to get himself stronger.

He taught celebrities for the money.

He didn't make movies to promote martial arts he did it for money.

He didn't train with world champs to spread Kung fu he did it to advance his own training and get to work out with the best guys in the country.


I'm not hating on him for this. He did it all for his money and his fame and his training and fair enough to him. Respect for that.

But let's not pretend he was doing it to help others and promote the Chinese community. He loved martial arts and he used them to make money. Good on him and I respect him for that. But calling him a hero or a revolutionist or the best fighter who ever lived...nonsense in my opinion.


The guy was a skilled practitioner in great shape who looked good on camera and made some decent movies and that's great. But he is not a fighter he never had a recorded real fight so we can see how good he really is. Yes there's all these tall tales about street fights but there's no evidence apart from his wife and his mates word that these happened.
 
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PhotonGuy

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There are two types of achivements in martial arts:
1) you win fights (against decent opponent of course)
2) your followers/students win fights
The achievement in popularization of subject is not the achievement in this subject.
There is much more to martial arts than winning fights or having students that win fights.
If that's what you think are the only types of achievements in the martial arts than your view of the martial arts is very shallow. Its a view very common among beginners, those with little to no experience in the marital arts.
 

Cynik75

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There is much more to martial arts than winning fights or having students that win fights.If that's what you think are the only types of achievements in the martial arts than your view of the martial arts is very shallow. Its a view very common among beginners, those with little to no experience in the marital arts
The only thing which distinguish martial arts from other human activities is the fighting. The "much more to martial arts" (like personal and social development, being in shape, learning to be modest, patient etc) is not uniqe to martial arts. Dancing can give you the same personal benefits besides fighting skills. Martial artist differs from other people because he can fight.
And there is nothing more in martial arts than fighting. Of course the other benefits are valuable but the only achievement in martial arts is kicking asses.
Being famous star of kung-fu movies is not achievement in martial arts - it is cinematography achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to achieve succes in movie. Thats all.
Being in shape is not a martial art achievement - its health achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to getting shape. That all. (For example: I am 43 years old jujiteiro/submission wrestler. I am in better shape than 98% of my contemporaries. Does it mean I have achievement in martial arts?)
etc, etc


Still waiting for examples of Bruce's influence on the way modern people fight.



.
 
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Buka

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So did Jack the Ripper. What is the point in this statement?


Show me the example answering my questions. Bruce Lee inspired many people to start training martial arts but IT IS NOT ACHIEVEMENT IN MARTIAL ART.
Hugh Laurie probably inspired many people to became doctor. Does it mean he has achievements in medicine?

In all due respect but I prefer something other than cliche.
The only thing which distinguish martial arts from other human activities is the fighting. The "much more to martial arts" (like personal and social development, being in shape, learning to be modest, patient etc) is not uniqe to martial arts. Dancing can give you the same personal benefits besides fighting skills. Martial artist differs from other people because he can fight.
And there is nothing more in martial arts than fighting. Of course the other benefits are valuable but the only achievement in martial arts is kicking asses.
Being famous star of kung-fu movies is not achievement in martial arts - it is cinematography achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to achieve succes in movie. Thats all.
Being in shape is not a martial art achievement - its health achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to getting shape. That all. (For example: I am 43 years old jujiteiro/submission wrestler. I am in better shape than 98% of my contemporaries. Does it mean I have achievement in martial arts?)
etc, etc


Still waiting for examples of Bruce's influence on the way modern people fight.



.

My apologies, I thought you were waiting for me to explain how Bruce Lee influenced me, as well as some of my teachers. I didn't realize you just wanted to rant. But, that's okay I guess. So here...

LittleBitch.jpeg
 

Cynik75

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Sorry. I am not native english speaker and it is not easy to explain my point of view in short way. Lack of suitable words.
I want to explain why I do not see any "achievements in martial arts" in Bruce biography. Hope I have clarified it to everyone one who reads this topics.

Still waiting for examples of Bruce's achievements or influences. Words and phrazes like "huge", "big", "we all know", "a lot", "nobody can doubt" has zero value and without specifics mean "blah, blah, blah he had achievement because I say so".
 

gpseymour

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The only thing which distinguish martial arts from other human activities is the fighting. The "much more to martial arts" (like personal and social development, being in shape, learning to be modest, patient etc) is not uniqe to martial arts. Dancing can give you the same personal benefits besides fighting skills. Martial artist differs from other people because he can fight.
And there is nothing more in martial arts than fighting. Of course the other benefits are valuable but the only achievement in martial arts is kicking asses.
Being famous star of kung-fu movies is not achievement in martial arts - it is cinematography achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to achieve succes in movie. Thats all.
Being in shape is not a martial art achievement - its health achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to getting shape. That all. (For example: I am 43 years old jujiteiro/submission wrestler. I am in better shape than 98% of my contemporaries. Does it mean I have achievement in martial arts?)
etc, etc


Still waiting for examples of Bruce's influence on the way modern people fight.



.
You’re assuming everyone in MA shares your goals. Some do not. There are styles that actually say the philosophical elements are more important, and that’s why some folks choose those styles.

For many of us, fighting skill is only part of our motivation.
 

Cynik75

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With all due respect, please do not change the subject. Of course very few people train martial arts just for fighting - people train for fun, socialization, for being fit etc.
But this is not an answer for question "what were Bruce's achievements in martial arts". He achieved more in cha-cha than in MA.
 

gpseymour

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With all due respect, please do not change the subject. Of course very few people train martial arts just for fighting - people train for fun, socialization, for being fit etc.
But this is not an answer for question "what were Bruce's achievements in martial arts". He achieved more in cha-cha than in MA.
It's not really changing the subject when a major part of one of your posts is really saying that MA is only about fighting.
 

Flying Crane

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I do not believe that Bruce opened the door to teaching non-Asians. I believe that was already happening in many places.

Also, there is not agreement over the issue of who won the match between Bruce and Wong Jack Man.
 
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