How Effective Is Bodybuilding For Self Defence?

[Unkogami]

It might help the flow of conversation/help others understand your viewpoint better if you share a bit about your experience (in martial arts and/or in real SD situations), so we know where you're coming from.

It might help the flow of conversation/help others understand your viewpoint better if you share a bit about your experience (in martial arts and/or in real SD situations), so we know where you're coming from.

I grew up in and around the parts of Boston and NE the tourists don't frequent. You learned how to handle your **** early and often on those streets. Wrestling and football made school interesting. After college (when I graduated I was ranked 13th in the nation, NCAA Div. 1), I took a year to heal and save a very modest amount of $$ then sold my car and bought a one-way ticket to the furthest place from home I could identify on a globe. Turned out to be a city in the middle of China. I landed, wandered around for a few days, ran into a guy from England, and after 30-40 beers he agreed to try and get me a job teaching at a university in the city where he had been working for about a year. His girlfriend at the time also introduced me to a very nice young lady, but that's another story.

Anyway, I met some people who knew some people who knew some people and I got to training early, early morning before teaching classes and late evening after teaching and learned as much of as many Chinese martial arts as I could. I also met some guys who wrestled for the provincial wrestling team that competed in China's version of national comps. Worked out with that team a lot, so I managed to keep pretty busy. During all this I befriended a lot of folks who the local Han tended to shun. Some Uyghur folks in particular tended to raise the ire of local Han farmers, so we got into some pretty interesting street fights late at night when the night markets were letting out and folks had a good amount of booze in them. Some hair-raising **** went down during those. My friend, the guy from England, was no fighter, so he got pretty freaked out during some of these when he happened to be around.

During Spring Festival one year me, the British guy and two Japanese ladies we were seeing at the time traveled around China as widely as we could, and here and there ran into some folks who had a beef with Japanese people or American people and various unpeaceful events took place accordingly. I should say though that most people were astonishingly welcoming, generous and hospitable to all of us. The great, great majority of folks were so wonderful to all of us that it really left a lasting impression on me. Anyway, while we were traveling, we took in some places along the southern border of China and Burma and Laos. Some of the villages along here seemed to be built around fighting rings where a lot of Chinese MA and the Laotian/Burman versions of Thai boxing and some sorts of Silat were practiced and tested straight out. Almost everywhere we went, the local folks wanted to put on an MMA kind of thing to see how I could do against their local guys. A lot of these guys were tough as hell, but I acquitted myself well enough to earn the respect of the locals. A few times I got the impression that some of the pro guys were going a little easy on me, but I wasn't about to make an issue of it. I had enough bruises and blackeyes as it was. Most combat sport guys everywhere in the world (more stories there) share a respect with anyone who puts their *** on the line. So, our trip along this border had its fair share of interesting experiences in local-made gyms/rings/streets. It would take a long time to recount them all (one actually involved a sort of fireworks battle - ridiculous).

Family matters called me back to the states, and when that was resolved I decided to take a job in Japan. During the years that I lived and worked there I had the opportunity to learn and practice various Japanese martial arts. These included Kempo, Kendo, Aikido, Iaido, and several others to lesser degrees. While working out at a local gym one day I met a guy who ran his own Nihon Kempo club, and he invited me to go teach his students some wrestling. They did a lot of free sparring, so I had the opportunity to go live with guys from a number of different backgrounds several times a week. When they went live they really went live, so that was fun. I didn't get into many street altercations during my years in Japan. Mostly with other gaijin who were drunk and bad-mouthing the US. I of course made time to continue practicing the things I had learned during my years in China as well.

Once again personal family matters called me back to Boston, and this time I became involved in business interests that mostly kept me there. I made a point of hitting different gyms/clubs/dojos around the greater Boston area on a regular basis. Sort of a circuit of boxing, Muay Thai, Capoeira, CMA, JMA, Ninjutsu, etc. When MMA became a thing, I hit a few of those gyms too. A wrestling club in one of the sketchy parts of Boston was a regular weekly stop. As will happen, there were incidents now and again on weekends. Especially when hanging out with some friends who were not good at drinking or fighting, or controlling themselves. Career interests continued to develop, and at one point I had to go to Korea to train and manage a few branches of a hagwan. I was there for about 7 months. Not long, but I made a point of finding opportunities to train Ssireum and Taekkyeon as much as I could. Time passes and many things transpired over the years and decades, but I have always trained and built on all I have learned. I am now teaching at an inner city school district, and I am also head wrestling coach for all the high schools in the city.

So, that's about where I'm at.

 

[tim po]

I was just jokin around which is what I’m usually up to. Can’t take me too seriously.

I grew up in and around the parts of Boston and NE the tourists don't frequent. You learned how to handle your **** early and often on those streets. Wrestling and football made school interesting. After college (when I graduated I was ranked 13th in the nation, NCAA Div. 1), I took a year to heal and save a very modest amount of $$ then sold my car and bought a one-way ticket to the furthest place from home I could identify on a globe. Turned out to be a city in the middle of China. I landed, wandered around for a few days, ran into a guy from England, and after 30-40 beers he agreed to try and get me a job teaching at a university in the city where he had been working for about a year. His girlfriend at the time also introduced me to a very nice young lady, but that's another story.

Anyway, I met some people who knew some people who knew some people and I got to training early, early morning before teaching classes and late evening after teaching and learned as much of as many Chinese martial arts as I could. I also met some guys who wrestled for the provincial wrestling team that competed in China's version of national comps. Worked out with that team a lot, so I managed to keep pretty busy. During all this I befriended a lot of folks who the local Han tended to shun. Some Uyghur folks in particular tended to raise the ire of local Han farmers, so we got into some pretty interesting street fights late at night when the night markets were letting out and folks had a good amount of booze in them. Some hair-raising **** went down during those. My friend, the guy from England, was no fighter, so he got pretty freaked out during some of these when he happened to be around.

During Spring Festival one year me, the British guy and two Japanese ladies we were seeing at the time traveled around China as widely as we could, and here and there ran into some folks who had a beef with Japanese people or American people and various unpeaceful events took place accordingly. I should say though that most people were astonishingly welcoming, generous and hospitable to all of us. The great, great majority of folks were so wonderful to all of us that it really left a lasting impression on me. Anyway, while we were traveling, we took in some places along the southern border of China and Burma and Laos. Some of the villages along here seemed to be built around fighting rings where a lot of Chinese MA and the Laotian/Burman versions of Thai boxing and some sorts of Silat were practiced and tested straight out. Almost everywhere we went, the local folks wanted to put on an MMA kind of thing to see how I could do against their local guys. A lot of these guys were tough as hell, but I acquitted myself well enough to earn the respect of the locals. A few times I got the impression that some of the pro guys were going a little easy on me, but I wasn't about to make an issue of it. I had enough bruises and blackeyes as it was. Most combat sport guys everywhere in the world (more stories there) share a respect with anyone who puts their *** on the line. So, our trip along this border had its fair share of interesting experiences in local-made gyms/rings/streets. It would take a long time to recount them all (one actually involved a sort of fireworks battle - ridiculous).

Family matters called me back to the states, and when that was resolved I decided to take a job in Japan. During the years that I lived and worked there I had the opportunity to learn and practice various Japanese martial arts. These included Kempo, Kendo, Aikido, Iaido, and several others to lesser degrees. While working out at a local gym one day I met a guy who ran his own Nihon Kempo club, and he invited me to go teach his students some wrestling. They did a lot of free sparring, so I had the opportunity to go live with guys from a number of different backgrounds several times a week. When they went live they really went live, so that was fun. I didn't get into many street altercations during my years in Japan. Mostly with other gaijin who were drunk and bad-mouthing the US. I of course made time to continue practicing the things I had learned during my years in China as well.

Once again personal family matters called me back to Boston, and this time I became involved in business interests that mostly kept me there. I made a point of hitting different gyms/clubs/dojos around the greater Boston area on a regular basis. Sort of a circuit of boxing, Muay Thai, Capoeira, CMA, JMA, Ninjutsu, etc. When MMA became a thing, I hit a few of those gyms too. A wrestling club in one of the sketchy parts of Boston was a regular weekly stop. As will happen, there were incidents now and again on weekends. Especially when hanging out with some friends who were not good at drinking or fighting, or controlling themselves. Career interests continued to develop, and at one point I had to go to Korea to train and manage a few branches of a hagwan. I was there for about 7 months. Not long, but I made a point of finding opportunities to train Ssireum and Taekkyeon as much as I could. Time passes and many things transpired over the years and decades, but I have always trained and built on all I have learned. I am now teaching at an inner city school district, and I am also head wrestling coach for all the high schools in the city.

I grew up in and around the parts of Boston and NE the tourists don't frequent. You learned how to handle your **** early and often on those streets. Wrestling and football made school interesting. After college (when I graduated I was ranked 13th in the nation, NCAA Div. 1), I took a year to heal and save a very modest amount of $$ then sold my car and bought a one-way ticket to the furthest place from home I could identify on a globe. Turned out to be a city in the middle of China. I landed, wandered around for a few days, ran into a guy from England, and after 30-40 beers he agreed to try and get me a job teaching at a university in the city where he had been working for about a year. His girlfriend at the time also introduced me to a very nice young lady, but that's another story.

Anyway, I met some people who knew some people who knew some people and I got to training early, early morning before teaching classes and late evening after teaching and learned as much of as many Chinese martial arts as I could. I also met some guys who wrestled for the provincial wrestling team that competed in China's version of national comps. Worked out with that team a lot, so I managed to keep pretty busy. During all this I befriended a lot of folks who the local Han tended to shun. Some Uyghur folks in particular tended to raise the ire of local Han farmers, so we got into some pretty interesting street fights late at night when the night markets were letting out and folks had a good amount of booze in them. Some hair-raising **** went down during those. My friend, the guy from England, was no fighter, so he got pretty freaked out during some of these when he happened to be around.

During Spring Festival one year me, the British guy and two Japanese ladies we were seeing at the time traveled around China as widely as we could, and here and there ran into some folks who had a beef with Japanese people or American people and various unpeaceful events took place accordingly. I should say though that most people were astonishingly welcoming, generous and hospitable to all of us. The great, great majority of folks were so wonderful to all of us that it really left a lasting impression on me. Anyway, while we were traveling, we took in some places along the southern border of China and Burma and Laos. Some of the villages along here seemed to be built around fighting rings where a lot of Chinese MA and the Laotian/Burman versions of Thai boxing and some sorts of Silat were practiced and tested straight out. Almost everywhere we went, the local folks wanted to put on an MMA kind of thing to see how I could do against their local guys. A lot of these guys were tough as hell, but I acquitted myself well enough to earn the respect of the locals. A few times I got the impression that some of the pro guys were going a little easy on me, but I wasn't about to make an issue of it. I had enough bruises and blackeyes as it was. Most combat sport guys everywhere in the world (more stories there) share a respect with anyone who puts their *** on the line. So, our trip along this border had its fair share of interesting experiences in local-made gyms/rings/streets. It would take a long time to recount them all (one actually involved a sort of fireworks battle - ridiculous).

Family matters called me back to the states, and when that was resolved I decided to take a job in Japan. During the years that I lived and worked there I had the opportunity to learn and practice various Japanese martial arts. These included Kempo, Kendo, Aikido, Iaido, and several others to lesser degrees. While working out at a local gym one day I met a guy who ran his own Nihon Kempo club, and he invited me to go teach his students some wrestling. They did a lot of free sparring, so I had the opportunity to go live with guys from a number of different backgrounds several times a week. When they went live they really went live, so that was fun. I didn't get into many street altercations during my years in Japan. Mostly with other gaijin who were drunk and bad-mouthing the US. I of course made time to continue practicing the things I had learned during my years in China as well.

Once again personal family matters called me back to Boston, and this time I became involved in business interests that mostly kept me there. I made a point of hitting different gyms/clubs/dojos around the greater Boston area on a regular basis. Sort of a circuit of boxing, Muay Thai, Capoeira, CMA, JMA, Ninjutsu, etc. When MMA became a thing, I hit a few of those gyms too. A wrestling club in one of the sketchy parts of Boston was a regular weekly stop. As will happen, there were incidents now and again on weekends. Especially when hanging out with some friends who were not good at drinking or fighting, or controlling themselves. Career interests continued to develop, and at one point I had to go to Korea to train and manage a few branches of a hagwan. I was there for about 7 months. Not long, but I made a point of finding opportunities to train Ssireum and Taekkyeon as much as I could. Time passes and many things transpired over the years and decades, but I have always trained and built on all I have learned. I am now teaching at an inner city school district, and I am also head wrestling coach for all the high schools in the city.

So, that's about where I'm at.

you sound like a no nonsense badass to me Unkogami, and that is a hell of a life story. i am sincerely interested, now, in why you take so much offense to what i am saying in this thread, recognizing that i am obviously missing something that is causing misunderstanding of my intent. it sounds like you grew up tough and stayed tough, and perhaps for you hesitation to use force when needed was never an issue and not something you ever had to think about, but it is not so for some people, and i personally found it necessary to train my mind, more specifically, develop the mind i was born with and train the one i have learned to use for social integration in a way that allows the original to have dominion in circumstances it is better prepared for. dropping one-line-negativity bombs on what(i thought) was a productive and respectful conversation doesn't help anyone understand what you know that i am missing.
i know animals better than i know people, just the way i am. i understand them, the way most people understand one another and i struggle. but the way i see it, 99% of what we consider "ourselves" does not belong to 'us' at all. 'we' are like boarders, who rent a room in the attic of an industrial factory. most of what 'our' bodies are doing every moment of our lives happens completely autonomously to our conscious thought process. our brain no less, what constitutes 'conscious mind' is a small and insignificant portion of what our brains are doing. i have trained to use the animal mind, as it is far more capable of using the potential of this body, than my 'social identity' ever will be. that is the 'power' i was referring to, to be clear.
also in my training i include techniques that as you seemed to rightly imply, are not taught in any legitimate dojo, they cannot be, in a world of liability. my luck, i suppose, to have met and trained with people who didn't care. (and survived). but i do believe that in every TMA that this very concept IS being trained, though probably never discussed, and to what degree it makes a difference is up to the student. no one can do this for us, it happens, in our own mind.
when i spoke originally of meanness, i was simply implying that in a fight(or attack) all things being equal, the meaner participant has an edge. never implied that meanness is more important than anything else, only a significant factor (like speed, strength, training, intelligence, etc) not to be over looked. i do think it amounts to more than diddly-squat.
animals aren't mean, but they are not merciful. they aren't mean, because 'meanness' doesn't exist in their world, it does in ours because we define certain behaviors as such-therefore i chose to use the word i thought best suited simplicity. when the word 'ruthless' was offered as synonmous with meanness, i agreed, but didn't anticipate it would only further skew my intention. i think in meanness and ruthlessness people are hearing 'sadistic' and 'cruel', but i do not mean to advocate these things. the Samurai were ruthless in combat, but not sadistic in nature.
in short, though i train to do as little harm as is necessary, i also train to do as much harm as is necessary, without hesitation or remorse. there is no time to make the distinction when it counts, that is why i train to use the mind that can think that fast.
quick example of the autonomous mind, recent enough to mention but not a combative application:
i had a gig hanging art for some folks who just moved to town, moving furniture, etc. one piece had previously been hung horizontally but fit better vertically, so i moved the screws that it hung on. two days later i was in the same room, two feet from that painting, back turned to it speaking with the owners. there was a faint 'crack' behind me, i turned my head to see the painting 2" lower than it had been hung. the wood had a flaw and cracked, the painting fell free, only it didn't fall very far-because my outstretched left arm, at as far backward an angle as possible, was gripping the edge between my thumb and fingers. by the time i turned my head, i'd already caught the falling painting, before i even knew what was happening. the conscious mind cannot do that, the body, and the mind that really controls it, can. this mind also has a very different sense of self-preservation than the mind that is taught all our lives to be 'more than animals'. so for me, the identity that seeks harmonious existence amongst my own species(however distasteful i often find us) is a separate mind than the one that trains to protect the life of this vessel.
how is this relevant to the original post? the question of whether or not the appearance of strength as achieved by bodybuilding gives a person an edge for self-defense. only so much to say beyond 'maybe' about that, so naturally the topic moved to bodybuilding vs. strength training, toughness and attitude, etc as per how they qualify to this end. so here we are, not terribly far from where we started. and i think i've said all i can, i hope this ( and getting rid of the unintentionally 'ruthless' looking samurai image i had originally chosen for my icon) helps you understand where i am coming from, i welcome thoughtful retorts to my approach to self-defense training.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I grew up in and around the parts of Boston and NE the tourists don't frequent. You learned how to handle your **** early and often on those streets. Wrestling and football made school interesting. After college (when I graduated I was ranked 13th in the nation, NCAA Div. 1), I took a year to heal and save a very modest amount of $$ then sold my car and bought a one-way ticket to the furthest place from home I could identify on a globe. Turned out to be a city in the middle of China. I landed, wandered around for a few days, ran into a guy from England, and after 30-40 beers he agreed to try and get me a job teaching at a university in the city where he had been working for about a year. His girlfriend at the time also introduced me to a very nice young lady, but that's another story.

Anyway, I met some people who knew some people who knew some people and I got to training early, early morning before teaching classes and late evening after teaching and learned as much of as many Chinese martial arts as I could. I also met some guys who wrestled for the provincial wrestling team that competed in China's version of national comps. Worked out with that team a lot, so I managed to keep pretty busy. During all this I befriended a lot of folks who the local Han tended to shun. Some Uyghur folks in particular tended to raise the ire of local Han farmers, so we got into some pretty interesting street fights late at night when the night markets were letting out and folks had a good amount of booze in them. Some hair-raising **** went down during those. My friend, the guy from England, was no fighter, so he got pretty freaked out during some of these when he happened to be around.

During Spring Festival one year me, the British guy and two Japanese ladies we were seeing at the time traveled around China as widely as we could, and here and there ran into some folks who had a beef with Japanese people or American people and various unpeaceful events took place accordingly. I should say though that most people were astonishingly welcoming, generous and hospitable to all of us. The great, great majority of folks were so wonderful to all of us that it really left a lasting impression on me. Anyway, while we were traveling, we took in some places along the southern border of China and Burma and Laos. Some of the villages along here seemed to be built around fighting rings where a lot of Chinese MA and the Laotian/Burman versions of Thai boxing and some sorts of Silat were practiced and tested straight out. Almost everywhere we went, the local folks wanted to put on an MMA kind of thing to see how I could do against their local guys. A lot of these guys were tough as hell, but I acquitted myself well enough to earn the respect of the locals. A few times I got the impression that some of the pro guys were going a little easy on me, but I wasn't about to make an issue of it. I had enough bruises and blackeyes as it was. Most combat sport guys everywhere in the world (more stories there) share a respect with anyone who puts their *** on the line. So, our trip along this border had its fair share of interesting experiences in local-made gyms/rings/streets. It would take a long time to recount them all (one actually involved a sort of fireworks battle - ridiculous).

Family matters called me back to the states, and when that was resolved I decided to take a job in Japan. During the years that I lived and worked there I had the opportunity to learn and practice various Japanese martial arts. These included Kempo, Kendo, Aikido, Iaido, and several others to lesser degrees. While working out at a local gym one day I met a guy who ran his own Nihon Kempo club, and he invited me to go teach his students some wrestling. They did a lot of free sparring, so I had the opportunity to go live with guys from a number of different backgrounds several times a week. When they went live they really went live, so that was fun. I didn't get into many street altercations during my years in Japan. Mostly with other gaijin who were drunk and bad-mouthing the US. I of course made time to continue practicing the things I had learned during my years in China as well.

Once again personal family matters called me back to Boston, and this time I became involved in business interests that mostly kept me there. I made a point of hitting different gyms/clubs/dojos around the greater Boston area on a regular basis. Sort of a circuit of boxing, Muay Thai, Capoeira, CMA, JMA, Ninjutsu, etc. When MMA became a thing, I hit a few of those gyms too. A wrestling club in one of the sketchy parts of Boston was a regular weekly stop. As will happen, there were incidents now and again on weekends. Especially when hanging out with some friends who were not good at drinking or fighting, or controlling themselves. Career interests continued to develop, and at one point I had to go to Korea to train and manage a few branches of a hagwan. I was there for about 7 months. Not long, but I made a point of finding opportunities to train Ssireum and Taekkyeon as much as I could. Time passes and many things transpired over the years and decades, but I have always trained and built on all I have learned. I am now teaching at an inner city school district, and I am also head wrestling coach for all the high schools in the city.

So, that's about where I'm at.

Great story. That’s why I asked. My personal interest on this site is to discover how other long term martial artists got to where they are and how they experience it now. I feel that I learn more from people if I have some idea of their background. Thank you for sharing. Now after all this training, at all these different “dojo’s” It sounds like you have a ton of experience. I do not dispute the existence of charlatans, but to say most are fake seems odd considering your story. What led you to believe most dojo’s are fake?

 

[Unkogami]

.... What led you to believe most dojo’s are fake?

I've been in too many real places at the source and also walked into too many belt factories and/or day care centers. Perhaps it has left me cynical.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I've been in too many real places at the source and also walked into too many belt factories and/or day care centers. Perhaps it has left me cynical.

Any particular martial art style that you prefer Or favor? Any particular teacher that impacted that? None of my business, of course. The reason I ask is that while I have some small amount of boxing and JJJ, the vast majority of my training is in CMA. It sounds like you trained in many different styles and I wonder how that colors your personal style? You said your initial skill boat was in wrestling at a very high level. Do you still fight/move like a wrestler, did martial arts exposure change your perspectives on how you approach fighting?

 

[Unkogami]

Any particular martial art style that you prefer Or favor? ....

Whatever works for you, works. This is bound to be different for every individual and every individual situation.

 

[Unkogami]

Whatever works for you, works. This is bound to be different for every individual and every individual situation.

I will say this: having been in a lot of hairy situations at points all along the journey, I have at times noted an awareness of different skills coming in handy at different times and different circumstances. The most obvious is wrestling. It is perhaps the most fundamental set of combat skills. Most people are pretty helpless when it comes to this, and the most you are ever likely to run into is some over the hill, out of shape, former high school hero who is far less skilled than he wants to believe. Boxing skills are also fundamental, and super fun when dealing with some slow reaction time drunk who doesn't have a clue about how slowly he is really moving. Of course speed is the first thing to go as you age, so that has to be kept in perspective. If you investigate various arts long enough, you'll notice a great many movements and principles in common - even when subtly distinguished and expressed via different terminology (and of course languages) and cultural contexts.

I often recall one instance that really left an impression on me vis a vis skills from various training. One night when I had recently returned from China, an old friend of mine wanted to go out for drinks. Well, we really went out for drinks. I had forgotten that my friend wasn't so good at drinks, and sure enough he picked a fight with everyone at every bar we hit. When we ran out of bars and the rest had shut down we found ourselves out in a real 'townie' neighborhood around 3 AM. My by then super-drunk friend was sure a friend of his lived nearby so he went about banging on every door and ringing every bell block by block. You can guess what eventually happened. I had just about had it and was waiting in the middle of the road as he went into yet another vestibule to buzz every buzzer on the board. It was silent for a little too long and then it happened. My buddy came flying through the (mostly) glass door like he had been fired from a cannon. He was followed close behind by an enormous mountain of human being. As if huge and very angry wasn't enough, something else seemed to be going on behind the eyes. My buddy was out cold on the sidewalk. It was a bad scene. Since letting him beat my friend to death wasn't an option, giant drugged up dude and I ended up in the middle of the street having at it. Coked-up (or somethinged-up) giant dude did seem to have some experience, so it was a rough go. It seemed to go on forever, back and forth, with me putting him down and him getting right back up throwing some serious haymakers. It was during all this that I had a real sense of some of the exact movements that I had practiced hundreds and hundreds of times at 4:00 AM in the park outside the city wall of Xi'an from a Taijichuan master. I was a long way from there. Anyway, this went on for what seemed like a long time until eventually the guy just had enough and walked away, both of us bloodied and torn. I don't know what he was on, but he sure took a lot of damage and kept going.

So, that was a situation where I was aware of different skills from different sources in the moment.

 

[dvcochran]

I had to go back and read the OP and several subsequent posts to get perspective on the topic. As with most long running topics this one has gone many different places. Normal for any topic with a modicum of depth to it.

I feel there is great value in hearing everyone's real world experience's and how they factor into the topic, both the good and the bad. This can be difficult since one's perspective can affect the retelling of a story.

I am an average built to smaller guy so almost everyone is either taller or heavier than I am. While my weight has not changed much in the last 30 years, what makes up that weight has. I am not nearly as muscular as I once was. In my peak fitness, not many people gave me cause for concern.
Me and my friends were known for starting fights. It was just the way we grew up. There were zero martial arts in my area growing up so I suppose some would argue that this subset consisted of unskilled fighters. I would argue that this could not be farther from the truth. While the skill set was different from most classical MA's, it is a skillset that was engrained from birth for most people. More carnal and very raw. A person worth their salt was learning all along the way, especially considering the 'training' was almost 100% actual fighting. People who could not/cannot stomach this just do not run in those circles.
More stories than I care to remember here and some I will never forget.
Me and my friends knew each other well enough to know each other's strengths & weaknesses, and no 'fight starters' were allowed. And to be certain, we won some fights, we lost some fights. But there was a degree of 'honor' in our fights; always one on one (as long as it did not turn into a boot stomping) and we never ganged up on any one person. There were times when one of us would get whipped. If the guy wanted more, it was always next guy up. Or vise-versa. It was most definitely formative years.

I was on a Job in LA one time. First time I had ever been to California. I had some free time, so a group took me sight-seeing. I was straight up in tourist mode. While walking, I had distanced myself from the group somewhat. I knew nothing about it being unsafe to walk on the inside of the sidewalk there, so I was walking along, rubber necking at all the sites. When I came to a cross alley, a guy came out and nailed me with a shank of some kind in his hand, badly cutting me at the eye. I went down to one knee. I felt the guy on me and could tell he was a big guy, but I never gave ground. When I stood up, he was running down the alley. The people with me said had I went to the ground he would have mugged me.
It took 16 stitches to close the eye and man oh man did it suck the next two days commissioning and programming a system with the headache I had and one eye completely swollen closed.
In hindsight, I got more pissed at the people I was with. No warning about what 'not' to do or any offer of help. Kind of a 'yea, it happens' mindset. Just a very different mentality from what I am used to.
This is the most poignant 'I did not see it coming' attack I can remember.

From a historical perspective, I cannot regale you with my travels to different countries or monastery's to train in any great MA's depth although I have trained and competed in other countries. Much of this was geared toward competition where there is a specific skillset and the fighting is rules bound. So, I do not feel this greatly applies to the OP.
I can honestly say the mass of a person never gave me a ton of hesitation, but a tall person could. I had to learn how to chop a person down since hitting below the belt just did not register with me back then.

A purely body builder physique has such a different purpose from raw, or athletic strength. Things like flexibility, agility, hostility, etc... do not factor into the equation very much. None the less, it would likely make a person take pause in the case of a physical encounter, if because of the sheer mass of a striking member if nothing else. Even an errant blow from a body builder could end things very fast.
When I apply this to the ring/mat, I would say the fighting dynamics of the higher weight classes are different in most metrics. Using a boxer as the example, their best skill is often their defensive ability. It amazes how 'easy' they make Not getting hit look. The minute slipping and rotating they do is impressive and easy to miss if you do not know what you are looking at. When your adversary can put you out with one hit, the value of this skill cannot be overstated. Even though they may be massive, (aka bodybuilder) boxers know how to move, at least within the confines of the match. Of course, most all of this skill is transferrable.

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

How much do you think the intimidation factor of massive, aesthetic muscles play into keeping yourself safe? I think you'll be pretty good, as long as you aren't the one starting that potential knife fight in the first place.
The intimidation levels hold exception for other branching physiques I think-

-Nordic strongman: intimidation factor +120%
-Tennis (only your dominant forearm is big and nothing else): intimidation factor -50℅
-Gains Goblin (short, dumb, ugly, but jacked): intimidation factor -12℅

As a old martial art instructor, bodybuilding or strength building should be practiced by all martial artist. I'm 5'2" and small bone. At one time I was benching 200 lbs three time. Weights helps your martial art, any style of martial art.
Sifu
Puyallup, Wa

 

[psycosteve]

How much do you think the intimidation factor of massive, aesthetic muscles play into keeping yourself safe? I think you'll be pretty good, as long as you aren't the one starting that potential knife fight in the first place.
The intimidation levels hold exception for other branching physiques I think-

-Nordic strongman: intimidation factor +120%
-Tennis (only your dominant forearm is big and nothing else): intimidation factor -50℅
-Gains Goblin (short, dumb, ugly, but jacked): intimidation factor -12℅

In the fights, I have been in competitively and in the street. There have been some weird things I have seen that have impacted my views on hand-to-hand combat in general. Conditioning and techniques are both equally important. Size does matter in a fight. Not only in the amount of damage they take but how much damage they can deliver. Intimidation is purely psychological but the discrepancies between you and another person should always be considered. I have big dumb and strong guys beat the crap out of more skilled fighters as the reverse is also true. As for intimidating factors, avoiding a fight is preferable to getting into one. If your potential attacker is thinking like a predator, then not projecting weakness is a good idea. But appearing like a strong target might be enough for them to see you as a threat. Everything is situational.

 

[Yanli]

Once a big guy said his size avoid him some troubles. BUT if he has one, probably it will be also a big one (weapons, outnumbered...). I believe he is right.

PS: In other words, big size may prevent troubles, but may also motivate the bad guys for a better planning.

In my much younger years, I was a bouncer at a bar that my worked at, and I found many times that you get drunken idiots that want to challenge bigger men. When men are sober, you do not have that too much, but it does still exist.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my much younger years, I was a bouncer at a bar that my worked at, and I found many times that you get drunken idiots that want to challenge bigger men. When men are sober, you do not have that too much, but it does still exist.

Yeah, the drunk guys never challenged me (5' 10", 175 lbs), or even bucked up at me. The big guy who could ragdoll them? They'd occasionally buck up at him if they were drunk and full of testosterone - his arms were almost as big around as my legs (and all muscle - dude was a beast). But I never saw one actually have a go at him, which was probably a good decision.

 

[Yanli]

In the fights, I have been in competitively and in the street. There have been some weird things I have seen that have impacted my views on hand-to-hand combat in general. Conditioning and techniques are both equally important. Size does matter in a fight. Not only in the amount of damage they take but how much damage they can deliver. Intimidation is purely psychological but the discrepancies between you and another person should always be considered. I have big dumb and strong guys beat the crap out of more skilled fighters as the reverse is also true. As for intimidating factors, avoiding a fight is preferable to getting into one. If your potential attacker is thinking like a predator, then not projecting weakness is a good idea. But appearing like a strong target might be enough for them to see you as a threat. Everything is situational.

I agree that large men have beaten a skilled MA, but that is not because of their size, it is because of the skilled fighter. What I have found incredible, you will have a 3rd or 4th degree black belt, and they forget everything they have learned when they get into a fight. But size being a factor, one should have learned enough from MA that size is not a factor. There was one time my wife was tending bar and a obnoxious man comes in and slams his hand on the bar and demanded a beer, my wife politely tells him in a minute, she was busy with other customers, he jumps over the bar behind her and puts his hand on her shoulder, (Big Mistake lol), she quickly turns around and thrust a punch at his stomach and he goes flying backwards landing on his butt. My wife was 95 pounds, 4'11, and 35 years old. She is know a Shifu. My wife can drop just about anyone, no matter what size they are, it may not always be a punch to the stomach, it may be something more aggressive. She is 58 going on 59 next month, and she can still drop just about any average man. I say average meaning anyone that is not as skillful and powerful as her Lord & Master, don't tell her I said that lol. After 37 years, I still can't get her to call me lord & master, not even master lol.

 

[Yanli]

Yeah, the drunk guys never challenged me (5' 10", 175 lbs), or even bucked up at me. The big guy who could ragdoll them? They'd occasionally buck up at him if they were drunk and full of testosterone - his arms were almost as big around as my legs (and all muscle - dude was a beast). But I never saw one actually have a go at him, which was probably a good decision.

I am 6'1 and was 190 pounds, a person that I became friends with was 6'5 and around 300 pounds. I was about 33 years old, and a gentlemen/boy lol, was 22. Out of the blue, he comes up to me and my friend and says he not afraid of us, we both looked at each other confused on why he found it necessary to say that. My wife and recently moved to that state, so we were outsiders. Well, later that evening the 22 year old tries getting up to attack us, but his friend tries holding him down, as I get over there, he throws a punch at his friend, I luckily stopped it and took him down. Well, there I was, an outsider holding down a boy that everyone knows, as I am watching everyone gathering around me, I see Tiny looking at me and giving me the thumbs up, as if to say I have your back. My wife and I got to be well known in that town as a MA people that do not tolerate fights in the bar. You have those that want the challenge of proving themselves against a big guy or MA.

 

[Yanli]

It wouldn't, and the size issue is just plain silly. The bigger they are the harder they fall kind of rings true. But it is not the fall necessarily, just the bigger target zone. Yeah a body bulider that gets into range to hit would likely hurt, and probably knock you out. However, the logic of the situation can be reversed. That really peeves them off, especially when they realise that a mere weakling is ready to stand and fight

I found that against a very muscular man, if a strike will not work against the normal points, go for the joints. Never mind the face, chest, or stomach, the joints are the weakest spots.

 

[Yanli]

All things being equal a large powerful build matters. This is why there are weight classes in fighting.

I would say that I am more intimated by a strong man/power lifter like build - then the more about looks body builder. There are shades of this - but you can kind of tell "power build" vs "looks build" in a guy.

But - attitude matters as well.

The one flaw I find with the large bodybuilders is their flexibility, they tend to be fairly slow at throwing punches. I of course do not mean this about all bodybuilders, just those that do not do the necessary proper stretching.

 

[Yanli]

I was wondering the same thing.

I've reviewed the same data about alert, confident small people being less attractive to a bad guy, such as a mugger, as set out above. I do have this feeling, after all the years of working the bars, that if a mugger/bad guy/bully-boy is wanting to start something to steal/rob, have fun, get whatever rush it is from hurting someone else, they are way more likely to choose the smaller person than the larger.

Being 6'8" and solid is a really good basis to start from for self-defense. Problem is, that's probably the upper 1 percentile for size, eh?

And Bill, you said you were about to adopt a defensive posture. I had this mental image of you always being in a defensive posture. C'mon man, letting us down, letting people get inside your space before you're ready.

Kidding.

But, on the issue of bodybuilding as part of a martial arts/SD strategy? I'm not talking about conditioning, or strength training, Those are very useful. But, bodybuilding would take a lot of time awy from actual training, which is way more effective a tool, imo.

When I first started out, I was taught in the old what you might say Asian manner, my form of body building or strength building was throwing punch's and arm movements with dumbbells and using a 10 pound weight bar to practice the long and short style. I never once went to a weight room, my arms and strength was building up just fine, and I was getting the strength where I needed it.

 

[Yanli]

I was nearly mugged a decade ago in Milwaukee. My friend and I were walking downtown and I got across a street before he did. This sketchy guy comes up and ask's me for a light, which is a well-known ploy. I see his greasy buddy in a doorway nearby.

I'm getting ready to take a defensive posture and my friend catches up to me. He's 6 feet 8 inches tall, and solid.

The prospective mugger never even waited to see if I had a light, he just walked quickly away.

Do you still live in Wisconsin?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I was young, my brother and I used to go boxing. After a while, I understood that boxing wasn't for me and gave it up.

I'm confused how this pertains to the question about bodybuilding. Did you switch to that?

 

[Yanli]

How much do you think the intimidation factor of massive, aesthetic muscles play into keeping yourself safe? I think you'll be pretty good, as long as you aren't the one starting that potential knife fight in the first place.
The intimidation levels hold exception for other branching physiques I think-

-Nordic strongman: intimidation factor +120%
-Tennis (only your dominant forearm is big and nothing else): intimidation factor -50℅
-Gains Goblin (short, dumb, ugly, but jacked): intimidation factor -12℅

I had mentioned in many other post regarding size, you study MA to learn how to fight and/or defend, so size should not be an issue. The one with the greater speed a reflex has the greater chance of winning.