How do you work on timing?
- Thread starter Cruentus
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dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Sparring is one of the best ways. Also agressive drilling with actionflex gear. Give and take drills.
C
CiNcO dOsE
Guest
what other things can you do to work on timings if youre by yourself/solo?! besides using some expensive drill equipments. maybe some homemade timing drill equipments!?
shadow fighting in front of a mirror: watch how you moving as you go into techniques and pay attention to the telegraphs, chances are they are similar to other peoples - it isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing.
Tree spar: focus in one or two limbs of a tree when the wind or what ever makes it move hit it with a predetermined strike.
Visualization: watch boxing matches, movie fights what ever you can and 'chalk talk' reactions and make predictions on when/how they will strike. Or, just use meditative visualization exercises that draw on your previous sparring/drilling/fighting experience.
With a partner:
SLOW SLOW SLOW: Timing is not the same as reaction. Drill one or two moves and have your partner feed you the stimulus that you are responding to and do the technique slowly. As you get better the speed will be picked up. Kenpo works from the technique acquisition theory of FORM<POWER>FOCUS>SPEED. In all things focus on form first for safety and mechanical efficiency (Reduces the telegraphing as well)
Paul Martin
Tree spar: focus in one or two limbs of a tree when the wind or what ever makes it move hit it with a predetermined strike.
Visualization: watch boxing matches, movie fights what ever you can and 'chalk talk' reactions and make predictions on when/how they will strike. Or, just use meditative visualization exercises that draw on your previous sparring/drilling/fighting experience.
With a partner:
SLOW SLOW SLOW: Timing is not the same as reaction. Drill one or two moves and have your partner feed you the stimulus that you are responding to and do the technique slowly. As you get better the speed will be picked up. Kenpo works from the technique acquisition theory of FORM<POWER>FOCUS>SPEED. In all things focus on form first for safety and mechanical efficiency (Reduces the telegraphing as well)
Paul Martin
modarnis
Purple Belt
Almost any of the drills in Modern Arnis (or FMA's for that matter) can develop timing when trained properly. As an earlier post indicated, slow is the best way. Professor would always encourage slow training to get the basic concept. I would argue that slow is also important to get advanced concets too.
Take any drill you do and look for places to add strikes on a half beat. You can also look for kicks, grapples, locks and throws. Once you understand where these moves fit in the timing of a particular drill, you will begin to understand how they relate to human movement in general. This was one area where Professor Presas was truly a master. His understanding of human movement was such that he could enter and exploit at a variety of places in any particular attack. He was always several moves ahead of an opponent because of this understanding.
Once you are able to work with this in controlled drills, you can apply it to sparring in a semi controlled setting, and ultimately to fighting or self defense
Brett
Take any drill you do and look for places to add strikes on a half beat. You can also look for kicks, grapples, locks and throws. Once you understand where these moves fit in the timing of a particular drill, you will begin to understand how they relate to human movement in general. This was one area where Professor Presas was truly a master. His understanding of human movement was such that he could enter and exploit at a variety of places in any particular attack. He was always several moves ahead of an opponent because of this understanding.
Once you are able to work with this in controlled drills, you can apply it to sparring in a semi controlled setting, and ultimately to fighting or self defense
Brett
Think of it as music: If you have good 'timing' and tempo sensitivity, then you make music. Though not exactly the same, the concept of blending into or 'flowing' into the pattern of the fight starts with the ability of timing the strike/counter pattern.
The same drills can be used to develop so many things, but only if the student is AWARE of the goal that is focused on.
De Cadena is a perfect example. Do it for speed and realize that the form will degrade. Do it for form and realize that it will be slow. Do it for flow and smoothness and realize that power will be sacrificed... and so on. But it is the same drill, mechanically.
For timing, do it slowly with the training focus on catching the punch/strike at just the right point, as well as the footwork to time the evasive step (usually a forward triange).
If training solo,
swing a heavy bag or a tennis ball hanging on a string and work on your dodging/slipping/weaving by getting out of the way.
Or
Open any door halfway open and stand facing the latch so that it lines up with your center line. Practice timing your triangular slipping as you slowly step toward the door. Add the touch on the handle sides of the door lightly with trapping hand motion. You will quickly find the timing to control the distance for effective application.
Paul martin
The same drills can be used to develop so many things, but only if the student is AWARE of the goal that is focused on.
De Cadena is a perfect example. Do it for speed and realize that the form will degrade. Do it for form and realize that it will be slow. Do it for flow and smoothness and realize that power will be sacrificed... and so on. But it is the same drill, mechanically.
For timing, do it slowly with the training focus on catching the punch/strike at just the right point, as well as the footwork to time the evasive step (usually a forward triange).
If training solo,
swing a heavy bag or a tennis ball hanging on a string and work on your dodging/slipping/weaving by getting out of the way.
Or
Open any door halfway open and stand facing the latch so that it lines up with your center line. Practice timing your triangular slipping as you slowly step toward the door. Add the touch on the handle sides of the door lightly with trapping hand motion. You will quickly find the timing to control the distance for effective application.
Paul martin
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
For me, the first thing is to have a working definition of timing.
I define it as a decision of when.
From there is the understanding of the two key mistakes of timing: too soon and too late.
So, I work on a series of "when triggers." Anything I decide to be the trigger of when I do something is what I drill. In my first karate book, on page 213 I go over it a bit as regards karate sparring.
I find timing a relatively simple subject.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
I define it as a decision of when.
From there is the understanding of the two key mistakes of timing: too soon and too late.
So, I work on a series of "when triggers." Anything I decide to be the trigger of when I do something is what I drill. In my first karate book, on page 213 I go over it a bit as regards karate sparring.
I find timing a relatively simple subject.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Ummm Dan.....
Maybe for us mere mortals you could add a bit more to the discsussion. No doubt it is simple to you, but you brought it to a very high level. In fact, didn't you make a national reputation off your skill at timing and reading an opponent????
How did you train timing when you were really in the thick of your tournament careeer? Or do you beleive it takes care of its self if you do everything else you should?
Answers, man, answers!!
Maybe for us mere mortals you could add a bit more to the discsussion. No doubt it is simple to you, but you brought it to a very high level. In fact, didn't you make a national reputation off your skill at timing and reading an opponent????
How did you train timing when you were really in the thick of your tournament careeer? Or do you beleive it takes care of its self if you do everything else you should?
Answers, man, answers!!
Dan,
You have hit the athletic performance nail on the head. Timing is one element in the reaction speed process, but a very important one. On tactical levels the OODA loop is how this is explained, but there are other terms/approaches to it.
Observe the situation
Orient yourself to the appropriate point (Self defense: threat)
Decide on a course of action
Act on it.
This sounds like it takes a long time but it is just a way of defining a natural reaction so that it can be identified and enhanced.
Timing is the ACT ON IT phase of the continuum. Packaged this way it can work on all conceptual and technical levels of athletic/martial/defensive training. I use this in Hockey skill development all the time.
Martial arts is an athletic performance/enhancement program with a specificity in violent conflict awareness/preparation, there are tones of general and specific athletic training techniques that we can steal from sports training to make ourselves/students more proficient mentally and physically.
Paul martin
You have hit the athletic performance nail on the head. Timing is one element in the reaction speed process, but a very important one. On tactical levels the OODA loop is how this is explained, but there are other terms/approaches to it.
Observe the situation
Orient yourself to the appropriate point (Self defense: threat)
Decide on a course of action
Act on it.
This sounds like it takes a long time but it is just a way of defining a natural reaction so that it can be identified and enhanced.
Timing is the ACT ON IT phase of the continuum. Packaged this way it can work on all conceptual and technical levels of athletic/martial/defensive training. I use this in Hockey skill development all the time.
Martial arts is an athletic performance/enhancement program with a specificity in violent conflict awareness/preparation, there are tones of general and specific athletic training techniques that we can steal from sports training to make ourselves/students more proficient mentally and physically.
Paul martin
OP
OP
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Originally posted by dearnis.com
Ummm Dan.....
How did you train timing when you were really in the thick of your tournament careeer? Or do you beleive it takes care of its self if you do everything else you should?
Answers, man, answers!!
And...how does your work on timing during your tournament career apply to non-tournament Modern Arnis Folks?
Answers man!! Inquiring minds need to know!!:soapbox:
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Chad,
1. I would pick a "when trigger," for example right when the guy dropped his arm, and at the beginning of the drop I'd go at him. I trained a number of when triggers, the guy: coming forward, going away, setting down from a kick, in between punches, right when he started to block, etc. The idea here is when is hemost vulnerable? Then train that trigger to begin your offensive (or counter-offensive) action.
2. It doesn't take care of itself, not at a high level. One can intuitively get only so far. The rest you have to train until you got it.
Paul,
The key is what do you want to do? Block? Counter strike? Disarm? Let me give an example: disarm #2 in Modern Arnis is a block and snake circle with your check hand. Now, to get a flow into the motion I do the block and snake circle simultaneously. Why? On contact my opponent might retract the cane so if I block and then snake, the snake will be too late.
The idea here is where do you insert your action? What is the "when" point? You train to go then so you must figure out your "when" points for your different actions. That's the simplicity of it. When do you block? Before you get hit. What do you want to do with your block? If it is to trap his cane then you block later in his swing. If you want to jam, you go sooner in his swing. It all depends on the function of the action.
Here is a key point stated in my Advance Modern Arnis book regarding timing - You must be in position to do your action otherwise you'll blow your split instant getting in position and then lose the timing point.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Thanks Dan.
Any other advice? (besided buy the book!)
Any other advice? (besided buy the book!)
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Yeah, buy the next book. Sales pitches aside, know which actions will require more acute timing than others. Example: counter attacks are not as touchy as disarms. You have to be spot on with the capture of the stick and slightly less with a counter strike. Know and drill the beast you are working with. When you have it, it will seem natural but one will have to go through a laboring process to get there.
Yours,
Dan
Yours,
Dan
OP
OP
Cruentus
Grandmaster
I like to hear what everyone is doing in regards to timing because I think that Timing is at least as important as learning the technique, yet I find that it is vastly misunderstood.
I address timing in a variety of different ways with my students.
#1. I address it as a Time progression with individual techniques. I'll explain what I mean by "time progression" through an example.
Lets review defending the #3 disarm ('hitchhiker' disarm); and lets just say for arguements sake that right or wrong, his stick moves accrossed his body to strike a #1 strike during or after the disarm. Your defense of this technique would depend on WHEN you catch him in the technique. So time progression #1 would be if you catch the technique right in the beginning, before his left hand begins to wrap around your cane; you have the option of monitoring his stick as it comes around with your left, and dropping the cane downward to strike the knee. Time progression #2 might be where his left is wrapped around your cane, but not tightly in execution of the disarm yet. Your defense is different, as you can't just hit the knee. So you intercept the cane as it is moving accrossed the body; you smack him in the face with his own cane as you pull your cane out of his armpit (straight out), then trap his left with his own cane as you step on the foot with your right, thus pinning his arms so you can puno strike to the head. Time Progression #3 might be where he has a tight grip around your stick and is in process of fully disarming you. You rotate your wrist so your knuckles are facing away from your body (to the outside) rather then upward, so you are no longer in disarming position, thus you maintain your stick. Lets say that in this time progression you are able to stop his #1 strike at the wrist, monitor his cane to smack against his collarbone on his left (your right) side by trapping his stick against his bone with your own stick, which loosens his hold so you can pull your stick out (or continue with other attacks while he is trapped). And lets say Time Progression #4 is where he actually disarms your stick, so you have to clinch him up and take him down to avoid being beaten by 2 sticks.
There are many other time progressions and options that I didn't address, even with just the #3 (I didn't even talk about the hammer lock counter), and they are very difficult to discribe over the internet. Yet, the idea is that there is a time progression when someone is trying to execute a technique, and depending on what moment you are addressing his technique will depend on what counter you will use. So when defending something like the disarm in my example, your options of a counter will not only depend on what technical options you have, but WHEN you have them.
The "timed progression" approach is good when working on counters to individual techniques, because it shows the student that not only are there a lot of options, but they see how these options fit in regards to their timing. Its like looking at each frame in a role of film where they can analyze the options they have at each moment.
btw this is also great for beginning students because they have the chance to analyze timing in a slow and controlled fashion.
#2. Rhythm Training in modern arnis drills is directly related to development of timing. Everything has a "cadence' or rhythm of some sort. A fight is unpredictable, yet it has a pattern and rhythm, even if it appears to be very random. Even "offbeat" techniques that are thrown in the mix still fit in the overall rhythm of the circumstance. Boxers, for example, understand how relevent developing rhythm is to their timing. That is why they do things such as speed bags and rope jumping. A speed bag isn't for "speed" as much as it is for rhythm.
Many of our modern arnis drills help us to develop rhythm. De Cadena, Sinawali's, 6 count, box drill....al help us develop rhythm. Once one gets the rhythm of a drill, then we can learn how to tweak the rhythm, or change the cadence, and how that effects our opponent; and we can learn how to deal with it when our opponent changes the rhythm on us. Example...decadena empty hand goes block check strike, block check strike, continueously alternating from partner to partner. You can now learn to condense or delay the timing with this. Perhaps you check-strike simultanously. perhaps you block-strike with no check. Perhaps you delay the "strike" by adding 2 limb destructions (like a gunting them arm destruction) before your strike. Perhaps you delay by doing a block-palis pass the strike hand accross the body, which may bait him into striking with the other hand. See....it all fits into a rhythm, yet you are learning how to play with that rhythm and play with timing to get the desired results.
#3 Controlled sparring. This is the most advanced ways of understanding and learning timing. You learn what works and what doesn't, and how your techniques need to be timed in the given situation when you execute your techniques against a resisting, unpredictable opponent. It's good in a controlled circumstance where you can stop and say "lets do that again..." and go slowly through what just happened so you can see how you messed the technique up, or so you can see how to defend their technique.
These are the methods that I like to use to address timing.
:asian:
I address timing in a variety of different ways with my students.
#1. I address it as a Time progression with individual techniques. I'll explain what I mean by "time progression" through an example.
Lets review defending the #3 disarm ('hitchhiker' disarm); and lets just say for arguements sake that right or wrong, his stick moves accrossed his body to strike a #1 strike during or after the disarm. Your defense of this technique would depend on WHEN you catch him in the technique. So time progression #1 would be if you catch the technique right in the beginning, before his left hand begins to wrap around your cane; you have the option of monitoring his stick as it comes around with your left, and dropping the cane downward to strike the knee. Time progression #2 might be where his left is wrapped around your cane, but not tightly in execution of the disarm yet. Your defense is different, as you can't just hit the knee. So you intercept the cane as it is moving accrossed the body; you smack him in the face with his own cane as you pull your cane out of his armpit (straight out), then trap his left with his own cane as you step on the foot with your right, thus pinning his arms so you can puno strike to the head. Time Progression #3 might be where he has a tight grip around your stick and is in process of fully disarming you. You rotate your wrist so your knuckles are facing away from your body (to the outside) rather then upward, so you are no longer in disarming position, thus you maintain your stick. Lets say that in this time progression you are able to stop his #1 strike at the wrist, monitor his cane to smack against his collarbone on his left (your right) side by trapping his stick against his bone with your own stick, which loosens his hold so you can pull your stick out (or continue with other attacks while he is trapped). And lets say Time Progression #4 is where he actually disarms your stick, so you have to clinch him up and take him down to avoid being beaten by 2 sticks.
There are many other time progressions and options that I didn't address, even with just the #3 (I didn't even talk about the hammer lock counter), and they are very difficult to discribe over the internet. Yet, the idea is that there is a time progression when someone is trying to execute a technique, and depending on what moment you are addressing his technique will depend on what counter you will use. So when defending something like the disarm in my example, your options of a counter will not only depend on what technical options you have, but WHEN you have them.
The "timed progression" approach is good when working on counters to individual techniques, because it shows the student that not only are there a lot of options, but they see how these options fit in regards to their timing. Its like looking at each frame in a role of film where they can analyze the options they have at each moment.
btw this is also great for beginning students because they have the chance to analyze timing in a slow and controlled fashion.
#2. Rhythm Training in modern arnis drills is directly related to development of timing. Everything has a "cadence' or rhythm of some sort. A fight is unpredictable, yet it has a pattern and rhythm, even if it appears to be very random. Even "offbeat" techniques that are thrown in the mix still fit in the overall rhythm of the circumstance. Boxers, for example, understand how relevent developing rhythm is to their timing. That is why they do things such as speed bags and rope jumping. A speed bag isn't for "speed" as much as it is for rhythm.
Many of our modern arnis drills help us to develop rhythm. De Cadena, Sinawali's, 6 count, box drill....al help us develop rhythm. Once one gets the rhythm of a drill, then we can learn how to tweak the rhythm, or change the cadence, and how that effects our opponent; and we can learn how to deal with it when our opponent changes the rhythm on us. Example...decadena empty hand goes block check strike, block check strike, continueously alternating from partner to partner. You can now learn to condense or delay the timing with this. Perhaps you check-strike simultanously. perhaps you block-strike with no check. Perhaps you delay the "strike" by adding 2 limb destructions (like a gunting them arm destruction) before your strike. Perhaps you delay by doing a block-palis pass the strike hand accross the body, which may bait him into striking with the other hand. See....it all fits into a rhythm, yet you are learning how to play with that rhythm and play with timing to get the desired results.
#3 Controlled sparring. This is the most advanced ways of understanding and learning timing. You learn what works and what doesn't, and how your techniques need to be timed in the given situation when you execute your techniques against a resisting, unpredictable opponent. It's good in a controlled circumstance where you can stop and say "lets do that again..." and go slowly through what just happened so you can see how you messed the technique up, or so you can see how to defend their technique.
These are the methods that I like to use to address timing.
:asian:
