How do you discipline your students?

[Lynne]

This is not intended to start World War III :jediduel:

But I'm very curious. I will tell you a true story. My dentist had enrolled both of his boys in a martial arts school. He said they needed the discipline in addition to the physical activity. Master whacked one of the kids with a bamboo stick and it traumatized the child a bit so dad-dentist pulled him out. I believe the child was 7. I wouldn't know if it were over-the-top.

Another story is that the Master of our school trained in a traditional school and his feet would get whacked with a bamboo stick if he didn't kick the same height every time he kicked. I hear he was a devil though Do you think that's extreme?

Do you use bamboo sticks? What for? Can you even whack someone with a bamboo stick in the US today without getting sued?

What would you do with two teenage girls who giggle and backtalk the instructor? (In this case, the parents are forcing the girls to attend though that shouldn't bear on their etiquette.)

What about the teenaged boy, 17, who refuses to learn a back stance? He says, "I'm not going to do it. I'll never get it anyway."

What about the kids who fail a test and stomp their feet? How do you handle that? Do you just ignore them?

What would you do with two teenage boys, orange belts, who get into a fist fight during sparring?

Do you ever get frustrated and just give up on people?

 

[Tez3]

This is not intended to start World War III :jediduel:

But I'm very curious. I will tell you a true story. My dentist had enrolled both of his boys in a martial arts school. He said they needed the discipline in addition to the physical activity. Master whacked one of the kids with a bamboo stick and it traumatized the child a bit so dad-dentist pulled him out. I believe the child was 7. I wouldn't know if it were over-the-top.

[I]This is unecessary surely! i just need to look at the kids and they keep quiet! I raise my voice and even the parents sit to attention![/I]
Another story is that the Master of our school trained in a traditional school and his feet would get whacked with a bamboo stick if he didn't kick the same height every time he kicked. I hear he was a devil though Do you think that's extreme?

Do you use bamboo sticks? What for? Can you even whack someone with a bamboo stick in the US today without getting sued?

[I]I wouldn't hit the kids, adults though I'd break their legs (I'm joking honest!)[/I]
What would you do with two teenage girls who giggle and backtalk the instructor? (In this case, the parents are forcing the girls to attend though that shouldn't bear on their etiquette.)

I[I] tell the class that for everytime these girls do this the class does 10/20 pressups, the class then sort the girls out lol. I would talk to the girls first and explain that I understood they didn't want to be there but things would work out better if they co-operated with the instructor and they may even get to enjoy it and learn some good SD moves if nothing else. [/I]
What about the teenaged boy, 17, who refuses to learn a back stance? He says, "I'm not going to do it. I'll never get it anyway."

[I]Say okay, then spar! this is where MMA has the advantage, it appeals to the teenage boys hormones! Like native tribes use to send boys out to prove themselves, an MMA fight does wonders for making a teenager into a human. Lads this age do wanr ro fight rather than learn techniques.[/I]
What about the kids who fail a test and stomp their feet? How do you handle that? Do you just ignore them?

Totally ignore them and the kids who are laughing at them!

What would you do with two teenage boys, orange belts, who get into a fist fight during sparring?

[I]Clear the mats and make them spar as in a competition either points or reasonably full contact. they have to bow of course etc. Its actually quite hard for them to carry on fighting. We have done this with adults, we had two men who were really getting at each other so we sent all the others out of the room and just the instructors stayed, we locked the door and told them to fight it out.They both backed down![/I]
Do you ever get frustrated and just give up on people?

I nearly give up on myself a lot.

 

[Lynne]

I nearly give up on myself a lot.

One problem with the gigglers/backtalkers, is that they distract the rest of us, especially newbies like me. I shouldn't complain...they only show up about once every 4 - 6 weeks.

I think you are spot on about the hormones regarding the teenage boy. He's uncontrolled in his kicking/sparring as well. I hope he turns into a disciplined MA.

I didn't see the fight but I heard that Master came over, ripped off their belts, and booted them out. They were expelled.

Grown men/MA's fighting? Oh gee.

I guess no one can imagine the mental stress you all have. Keep up the good work! We need you!

 

[stickarts]

We let everyone know the expectations up front.
Those that get out of hand may get spoken to about it, or sit out of class, or have to do pushups.
The next step is to have to see me in my office. That is the worst step because the next step is leaving the school!
We whack each other with sticks voluntarily for fun but never for discipline!
We always try a positive approach first.

 

[Kacey]

But I'm very curious. I will tell you a true story. My dentist had enrolled both of his boys in a martial arts school. He said they needed the discipline in addition to the physical activity. Master whacked one of the kids with a bamboo stick and it traumatized the child a bit so dad-dentist pulled him out. I believe the child was 7. I wouldn't know if it were over-the-top.

That's over the top. It is also child abuse - misuse of power by a person in a position of trust. For many of the older MA instructors, this is how they were trained, and it takes something significant to make them realize that the world outside their dojang has changed - then some of them move on, and some don't. The ones that don't risk being sued and put out of business.

Another story is that the Master of our school trained in a traditional school and his feet would get whacked with a bamboo stick if he didn't kick the same height every time he kicked. I hear he was a devil though Do you think that's extreme?

Is it extreme now? Yes. Was it extreme then? No particularly. Corporal punishment was quite common in MA training for a very long time.

Do you use bamboo sticks? What for?

I don't have any bamboo sticks, although I have occasionally used a broom handle as an obstacle for students to kick over, or to make sure that students are picking their feet up between techniques - but that's rather different than hitting them with one.

Can you even whack someone with a bamboo stick in the US today without getting sued?

It depends on what you're doing. If you're practicing fencing with bamboo training swords, that's one thing; if you're using them for punishment, then yes, you are likely to get sued - or arrested.

What would you do with two teenage girls who giggle and backtalk the instructor? (In this case, the parents are forcing the girls to attend though that shouldn't bear on their etiquette.)

You're right - why the students are attending should not bear on their etiquette. In the situation you describe, there is an ascending series of actions:

- ignore
- separate the girls
- intensify their workout to the point where talking becomes difficult
- push ups or sit ups (in multiples of 10s or 20s)
- sit out of class (up to several separate occasions - and I'd make sure they're not where they can talk while sitting out)
- discussion with parents about why students need to change their behavior or not be allowed back to the class

What about the teenaged boy, 17, who refuses to learn a back stance? He says, "I'm not going to do it. I'll never get it anyway."

This sounds more like the student is not certain of his own abilities. Depending on the circumstances, I would either:

- pair the student with someone more senior who can provide feedback and instruction, and allow the student to try out of the eye of the class
- talk to the student privately about why he thinks he cannot do the stance
- talk to the student privately about why he cannot choose to refuse to do a particular technique, and possible consequences if he continues (see list above)

Students who cannot but try are no problem for me; students who can and will not are a different story - they annoy me. Students who convince themselves that they cannot and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy usually have some problem that goes far beyond the technique(s) they cannot do, and that problem needs to be addressed before anything else. Students who negatively impact the training of other students in the long term may lose the privilege of training in my class; all of the options listed above (and others, depending on the circumstances) are intended to give the student who is disrupting class the opportunity to change his/her behavior before it reaches the extreme of being told not to return (exceedingly rare).

What about the kids who fail a test and stomp their feet? How do you handle that? Do you just ignore them?

Again, this is circumstantial. The last student I had who failed a test did so because he was there, like the girls you describe, because his parents made him come, on the theory that he was too close to black belt to stop now. After he failed his 2nd gup test, his father pulled him out of class - which, ultimately, was good, as his behavior in class, due to not wanting to be there, was fast approaching the point where he was going to be asked to leave.

What would you do with two teenage boys, orange belts, who get into a fist fight during sparring?

If it is a one-time thing, they would be demoted (actual fights, instead of sparring, are not allowed). If it happened more than once, they would be expelled from the class. This is a safety issue, and cannot, IMHO, be allowed to occur without significant consequences.

Do you ever get frustrated and just give up on people?

Do I get frustrated? Yes - I am, like everyone else here, human. Do I give up on people? No - in addition to being a TKD instructor, and I am a special education teacher - giving up on those students is just not possible. This attitude has spilled over into the rest of my life.

 

[Lynne]

We let everyone know the expectations up front.
Those that get out of hand may get spoken to about it, or sit out of class, or have to do pushups.
The next step is to have to see me in my office. That is the worst step because the next step is leaving the school!
We whack each other with sticks voluntarily for fun but never for discipline!
We always try a positive approach first.

I imagine those measures works for most students versus being expelled, especially since you are taking a positive approach.

Oh, I did see one of the instructors being ganged up on and whacked on his birthday

 

[Lynne]

That's over the top. It is also child abuse - misuse of power by a person in a position of trust. For many of the older MA instructors, this is how they were trained, and it takes something significant to make them realize that the world outside their dojang has changed - then some of them move on, and some don't. The ones that don't risk being sued and put out of business.



Is it extreme now? Yes. Was it extreme then? No particularly. Corporal punishment was quite common in MA training for a very long time.



I don't have any bamboo sticks, although I have occasionally used a broom handle as an obstacle for students to kick over, or to make sure that students are picking their feet up between techniques - but that's rather different than hitting them with one.



It depends on what you're doing. If you're practicing fencing with bamboo training swords, that's one thing; if you're using them for punishment, then yes, you are likely to get sued - or arrested.



You're right - why the students are attending should not bear on their etiquette. In the situation you describe, there is an ascending series of actions:

- ignore
- separate the girls
- intensify their workout to the point where talking becomes difficult
- push ups or sit ups (in multiples of 10s or 20s)
- sit out of class (up to several separate occasions - and I'd make sure they're not where they can talk while sitting out)
- discussion with parents about why students need to change their behavior or not be allowed back to the class



This sounds more like the student is not certain of his own abilities. Depending on the circumstances, I would either:

- pair the student with someone more senior who can provide feedback and instruction, and allow the student to try out of the eye of the class
- talk to the student privately about why he thinks he cannot do the stance
- talk to the student privately about why he cannot choose to refuse to do a particular technique, and possible consequences if he continues (see list above)

Students who cannot but try are no problem for me; students who can and will not are a different story - they annoy me. Students who convince themselves that they cannot and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy usually have some problem that goes far beyond the technique(s) they cannot do, and that problem needs to be addressed before anything else. Students who negatively impact the training of other students in the long term may lose the privilege of training in my class; all of the options listed above (and others, depending on the circumstances) are intended to give the student who is disrupting class the opportunity to change his/her behavior before it reaches the extreme of being told not to return (exceedingly rare).



Again, this is circumstantial. The last student I had who failed a test did so because he was there, like the girls you describe, because his parents made him come, on the theory that he was too close to black belt to stop now. After he failed his 2nd gup test, his father pulled him out of class - which, ultimately, was good, as his behavior in class, due to not wanting to be there, was fast approaching the point where he was going to be asked to leave.



If it is a one-time thing, they would be demoted (actual fights, instead of sparring, are not allowed). If it happened more than once, they would be expelled from the class. This is a safety issue, and cannot, IMHO, be allowed to occur without significant consequences.



Do I get frustrated? Yes - I am, like everyone else here, human. Do I give up on people? No - in addition to being a TKD instructor, and I am a special education teacher - giving up on those students is just not possible. This attitude has spilled over into the rest of my life.

Although my Master was traditionally trained, I have never seen corporal punishment in our Dojang. I just want to make that clear. The Master and the instructors are very encouraging. Even when someone gets punished, there is an air of camaraderie and positive attitude.

As far as the young ladies go, I think if they were attending regularly, someone would talk with them or their parents. It has to be a pain for the instructors though as the girls have forgotten their lower rank material - such as jump front kicks - a very basic white belt kick. That means they have to reteach them everytime they attend. Well, I guess they don't have to but they do. From my perspective and the students who want to learn, who are enthusiastic, it's irritating because it means we learn less that particular class; we might not have time to practice A or B - like tricky wrist grips! But, once again, these little ladies don't show very often.

I like the idea of working them to where they can't talk, really. That's an excellent suggestion. It would be easy for the instructor to tell the two of them to refresh their skills by doing X interspersed with squat thrusts and partner situps. He/she could teach us while the girls are refreshing their memory without having to babysit.

I think the student who refused to try might have a learning disability/Asperger's Syndrome. But he just passed his 7th gup test recently! Poor kid was probably just frustrated.

That's sad about the kid who was close to black belt. He demonstrated he had ability and worked hard. Do you wonder if he will return to Martial Arts someday?

You have a wonderful attitude, Kacey. Your students are lucky to have you. They will remember you as a positive and motivational force in their lives.

 

[IcemanSK]

I agree with Kacey on this one. It was extreme for sure!

I do not use corporal punishment in my class. Push-ups, however are another matter.

My 1st instructor was a Korean man who carried an oak stick. He said it was to "correct our stances with." (He only brought it out for the adult class. I was 14 when I started). We thought is was to wack us with if we weren't doing it properly. In fact, he would just hook our foot to gently move our feet in the right place.

The only person he ever hit with it was a Korean teenage student who was a big discipline problem. (This kid's father would BEG our instructor to keep him in his class).

I do get kids with physical/emotional/mental problems in my class. Sadly, I've discovered some of the kid's "issues" only after I've approached the parents & said, "I've noticed x,y, & z about Johnny. Can you tell me about that." Parents need to tell instructors about such things upfront. Otherwise, a students with learning disabilities may be mistaken for a student who is unwilling to learn.

 

[Gemini]

We let everyone know the expectations up front.
Those that get out of hand may get spoken to about it, or sit out of class, or have to do pushups.
The next step is to have to see me in my office. That is the worst step because the next step is leaving the school!
We whack each other with sticks voluntarily for fun but never for discipline!
We always try a positive approach first.

My approach is very similar. Decipline starts BEFORE it's needed. I'm VERY clear about expectations up front and very selective about who I accept in classes. For children, minor infractions get pushups up to major's getting a private discussion with me and their parents which can lead to permanent suspension. I'm not a baby sitter and not in it for the money.
Adults are simply be asked to leave, though the only instance so far has been one for lack of attendance. To me, it's the same thing. Lack of dedication.

 

[searcher]

WE use shinai, but not for punishment. They are used for Niseishi testing, which is similar to Sanchin testing is some other Okinawan schools. This is only done once the student is ready and IS a requirement for the upper pre-Dan ranks and for ALL Dan ranks. In one of my former instructor's school his mother would come and guest teach and she used a bo in place of a shinai. The woman was a sadist and loved to torture us. In my Chito-ryu instructor's school it was very common to get kicked in the solar plexus or beat with a shinai. We had a high dropout rate in the upper ranks and he prides himself in having very few that have reached the BB ranks. And this is not his discipline, it was even worse.

For myself and My Wife, we try to intensify the training and wemake sure that everyone gets the benefit of the training. You would be suprised as to how well the other students in class respond when one screws up and they all pay the price. The peers tend to correct better than I can.

BTW- I am not in the business of giving discipline to another individuals parental mistakes. I am her to teach them a martial art and try to impart some of the knowledge I have been given, I am not a babysitter or their parent.

 

[kidswarrior]

Short answer, in ascending order:

1) Push ups for the screw offs.
2) Push ups for the whole class courtesy of the screwoffs, if original culprits don't change (or, s.th. similar like running in place till they're really tired--don't want to overdo it and risk a serious injury, so each incident is uniquely timed)
3) Removal of problems from class for a day
4) Written and/or verbal apology to me in front of the class, or to the class (if, say, they dissed me or some such in a previous class).

I work with some pretty tough 'cases', and this is all I've ever needed. BTW, I'm pretty conscientious about praising the amends-making; after all, growth is what I'm after, not perfection.

 

[tellner]

Kacey is right. It's well over the line into child abuse or assault. Your teacher should expect a lawsuit and/or a visit from the police.

 

[whitetiger2001]

This is not intended to start World War III :jediduel:

But I'm very curious. I will tell you a true story. My dentist had enrolled both of his boys in a martial arts school. He said they needed the discipline in addition to the physical activity. Master whacked one of the kids with a bamboo stick and it traumatized the child a bit so dad-dentist pulled him out. I believe the child was 7. I wouldn't know if it were over-the-top.

There is never any excuse to hit a child, especially an instructor. I would have pulled my son too.

Another story is that the Master of our school trained in a traditional school and his feet would get whacked with a bamboo stick if he didn't kick the same height every time he kicked. I hear he was a devil though Do you think that's extreme?

Extreme for this culture perhaps but he allowed it for himself.

Do you use bamboo sticks? What for? Can you even whack someone with a bamboo stick in the US today without getting sued?

I naver whacked a student. They're there to train, not get abused.

What would you do with two teenage girls who giggle and backtalk the instructor? (In this case, the parents are forcing the girls to attend though that shouldn't bear on their etiquette.)

Address this with the parents. Perhaps they should not force the astudents to attend because this is having an imapct on th eother students who do want to learn. Should you sacrifice their training because of two girls who don't want to be there in the first place? Cut your losses or find a way to get the girls interested in being there.

What about the teenaged boy, 17, who refuses to learn a back stance? He says, "I'm not going to do it. I'll never get it anyway."

I guess he dooesn't progress. How can I test someone who refuses to learn all the material he'll be tested on? Is it fair to test him when others had to know the material before they were tested? But remind the student that he's not being tested on having the best stance in class but on doing the best that he can. Not everyone can throw a head high side kcick, it's not the height but the affort to make yourself stronger

What about the kids who fail a test and stomp their feet? How do you handle that? Do you just ignore them?

I've never had this problem before

What would you do with two teenage boys, orange belts, who get into a fist fight during sparring?

Don't let them spar. Make them work on something else while the rest of the class spars. But tell them why you're taking this action and tell them they can return to that lesson when they can control themselves. I would even address the issue with the parents of the two boys. This is a safety issue as well as one of liability because if one hurts the other in your school, you're the one who's legally responible for what happens there, don't risk your school because of two students. If it's extreme, you might not want them to attend because they have no self cntrol and could easily turn the weapons you give them on someone else.

Do you ever get frustrated and just give up on people?

Frustrated yes, give up, no. Patience should be a key attribute of any teacher.

 

[kaizasosei]

hi!

i find it interesting how people see the role of a student and the role of a teacher.
when it comes to whacking someone with stick, i believe, it is not the stick that is doing the hitting, it is the spirit of the hitter.
also, i don't think it is necessary to touch someone or hit them to psychologically scar them. it is the attitude that counts. no need to worry too much about that because i think everyone has that edge with which to cut with or stick with which to beat with. and nowadays, one could even get sued back.
in zazen during meditation, you have to ask to be beaten by bowing to the master. if you don't ask, you may not get hit.

i thought about it for a long time, which is better, to be really rough with a student of to be really gentle. i concluded it would depend on the situation. i mean, if they are alone, the teacher may be more free to express himself without any worries. however, i think it is not good to make someone look bad over and over again in front of people. kindof like a powertrip most likely such teachers are most concerned with looking good to others.
also, there may be a time where the teacher will be rough according to the weather or the time of day(not mood)- then at other times the teacher should teach lessons of control and nonviolence.
this should all be mixed in such a way as to illuminate and empower the student to be more and more secure, aware,respectful...
the type of students that are stomping their feet too much or giggling are beyond help...they should be just observed closely and with a kind heart until they realize the rudeness and weakness of their actions, on their own. if people are in such a state, i imagine, they may even go their separate ways.
i can see even a great teacher having problems with such situations. but then again, with the subject being ma physical and all, i think it wouldn't be that hard to put someone on the spot..
one of the greatest examples of a teacher i know was one teacher that would comfort the students all the time whenever they messed up something and say: 'never mind, it is my fault that you couldn't do that well because i didn't teach it well enough'
now that is being helpful.

j

 

[tshadowchaser]

so many answeres to this one.

if someone tells me they are not going to dso something because they will never get it I tell them to leave the floor because I want to instruct those that want to learn

What would you do with two teenage boys, orange belts, who get into a fist fight during sparring?

They get to play with the instructor for a while

Do you ever get frustrated and just give up on people?

Yes and I refuse to work one on one with them for some time afterwards. I also refuse to show them anything new till they learn what had been taught befor or do as they are told. I have told a few "do not come back unless you are willing to learn"

Do you use bamboo sticks? What for?

I haveused them. people seem to block better when being encouraged with a stick hitting them