How come ?
- Thread starter Burnerbob
- Start date
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
OK, but is it ok to declare myself lord high omnipotent grandmaster and evil wizard of Xuefu
that right there's funny, I dont care who you are.........
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
This is exactly why I say the dan ranking system isn't that great...just because there is more material to learn beyond the level of blackbelt that you are doesn't mean that you need to have a rank everytime you reach a level of knowledge.
It's a rank. Nothing more. I'm fine with just saying that I'm a blackbelt in TKD, and that I have been for 10 years now.
Once you start getting into the whole argument of "Well, I'm a 12th dan Grand Poobah, so I'm better than you", then, to me, that's when the blackbelt starts to lose its value.
If you're a blackbelt, great, you're a blackbelt. Anything after that is icing on the cake as far as rank is concerned. We are all going to learn something new, no matter what rank we are. Having a blackbelt doesn't mean that you're the highest level and there's nothing left to learn.
It really looks petty when people start arguing over who's the higher rank and why this guy is more qualified to teach what system, and how he ranked himself to 125th dan, even though there was no one there to rank him.
A blackbelt is a blackbelt. Get over the rank thing.
It's a rank. Nothing more. I'm fine with just saying that I'm a blackbelt in TKD, and that I have been for 10 years now.
Once you start getting into the whole argument of "Well, I'm a 12th dan Grand Poobah, so I'm better than you", then, to me, that's when the blackbelt starts to lose its value.
If you're a blackbelt, great, you're a blackbelt. Anything after that is icing on the cake as far as rank is concerned. We are all going to learn something new, no matter what rank we are. Having a blackbelt doesn't mean that you're the highest level and there's nothing left to learn.
It really looks petty when people start arguing over who's the higher rank and why this guy is more qualified to teach what system, and how he ranked himself to 125th dan, even though there was no one there to rank him.
A blackbelt is a blackbelt. Get over the rank thing.
I may be wrong, because this bit of knowledge is from years ago, and I couldn't give a source, but I was told that Mr. Norris received permission from his instructor to branch out and start Chun-kuk-do (Under the United Fighting Arts Federation). I think he was at least 8th degree Tang-so-do at the time, but again, I'm not sure.
His style developed out of work in the ring, adding and modifying TSD, until it really wasn't TSD any more. He didn't really "set out" to create a new art, it simply developed.
So, my question is: In giving permission to Mr. Norris to start CKD/UFAF, isn't that like promoting him to 10th?
In UFAF, there is only ever one 10th at a time, and that is the "Head" of the organization. The 9th's and 8th's sit on the board. So, at that point, rank is more of a leadership issue than necessarily skill.
His style developed out of work in the ring, adding and modifying TSD, until it really wasn't TSD any more. He didn't really "set out" to create a new art, it simply developed.
So, my question is: In giving permission to Mr. Norris to start CKD/UFAF, isn't that like promoting him to 10th?
In UFAF, there is only ever one 10th at a time, and that is the "Head" of the organization. The 9th's and 8th's sit on the board. So, at that point, rank is more of a leadership issue than necessarily skill.
I thought I had read somewhere that before it was applied to judo by Kano, it was (and I assume still is) a system of rank used in the game, 'Go.'
If my memory is correct (and it may not be) the system was used in some form or another in Go for over a century, but Kano applied it to his students when he was codifying judo.
Daniel
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Daniel,
the earliest references i have to seen to dan ranks, as in "____ degree black belt" only go back to the 30's
interesting thing to research tho
edited to add
according to wiki, Kano used Dan rank.
Only one, Shodan.
there was no second degree, third degree, etc
that didnt happen till later
according to one source:
" In 1907, Kano introduced the modern judogi and its modern obi, but he still only used white and black belt ranks. The other colored belts originated later when Judo began being practiced outside of Japan. Sensei Mikonosuke Kaiwashi introduced various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach judo in Paris.
The Judo practice uniform and belt system eventually spread to many of the other modern martial arts such as aikido and karate which adapted them for their purpose. Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first
adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first shodan ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. "
but again, Funikoshi only awarded Shodan
then there is this:
"For its part, the Butoku-kai issued instructor's licenses: the titles renshi (the lowest), kyoshi, and hanshi (the highest). It would be a while before the dan/kyu system became universal in karate. By the end of the 1930s, each karate group was called upon to register with the butoku-kai for official sanctioning, and in 1938, a meeting of the Butoku-kai's official karatedo leaders was held in Tokyo. Its purpose was to discuss the standards for awarding rank within their art. Attending, among others, were Hironori Ohtsuka of wado-ryu, Kenwa Mabuni of shito-ryu, Kensei Kinjo (Kaneshiro) and Sannosuke Ueshima of kushin-ryu, Tatsuo Yamada of Nippon kempo, Koyu Konishi of shindo-jinen-ryu, and a young Gogen Yamaguchi of goju-ryu. Most of these men were founders of their own styles, and as such automatically became the highest rank that their agreed-on respective standards allowed."
http://www.judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm
the earliest references i have to seen to dan ranks, as in "____ degree black belt" only go back to the 30's
interesting thing to research tho
edited to add
according to wiki, Kano used Dan rank.
Only one, Shodan.
there was no second degree, third degree, etc
that didnt happen till later
according to one source:
" In 1907, Kano introduced the modern judogi and its modern obi, but he still only used white and black belt ranks. The other colored belts originated later when Judo began being practiced outside of Japan. Sensei Mikonosuke Kaiwashi introduced various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach judo in Paris.
The Judo practice uniform and belt system eventually spread to many of the other modern martial arts such as aikido and karate which adapted them for their purpose. Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first
adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first shodan ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. "
but again, Funikoshi only awarded Shodan
then there is this:
"For its part, the Butoku-kai issued instructor's licenses: the titles renshi (the lowest), kyoshi, and hanshi (the highest). It would be a while before the dan/kyu system became universal in karate. By the end of the 1930s, each karate group was called upon to register with the butoku-kai for official sanctioning, and in 1938, a meeting of the Butoku-kai's official karatedo leaders was held in Tokyo. Its purpose was to discuss the standards for awarding rank within their art. Attending, among others, were Hironori Ohtsuka of wado-ryu, Kenwa Mabuni of shito-ryu, Kensei Kinjo (Kaneshiro) and Sannosuke Ueshima of kushin-ryu, Tatsuo Yamada of Nippon kempo, Koyu Konishi of shindo-jinen-ryu, and a young Gogen Yamaguchi of goju-ryu. Most of these men were founders of their own styles, and as such automatically became the highest rank that their agreed-on respective standards allowed."
http://www.judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm
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I followed the link, Xue, and coppied this exerpt, as I found it interesting.
The dan ranking system was invented by Honinbo Dosaku, professional go player in the Edo period.[2] Prior to the invention, top-to-bottom ranking was evaluated by each handicaps and tended to be vague. He valued then highest title holder, Meijin at 9 Dan.
Dan ranks were applied to martial arts by Kano Jigoro, the founder of judo. Kano started the modern rank system when he awarded shodan (the lowest dan rank) to two of his senior students (Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external differentiation between yūdansha (black belt ranks) and mudansha (those who had not yet attained a grade). Kano began the custom of having his yūdansha wear black obi (belts) in 1886. These obi were not the belts karateka and jūdōka wear today—Kano had not invented the jūdōgi (judo uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in kimono. They wore the wide obi still worn with formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern jūdōgi and its modern obi, with white and black belt ranks.
The use of belts to denote ranks were used by different athletic departments within the Japanese school system, most notably for swimmers, prior to their adoption by Kano.[citation needed]
Interesting stuff, particularly the last bit about dan rank being used in
athletics prior to Kano's adoption of it in Judo. Though the above does
not mention this, the kyu/dan system replaced the older menkyo kaiden
system.
Daniel
Edit: What the heck happened to my font???
The dan ranking system was invented by Honinbo Dosaku, professional go player in the Edo period.[2] Prior to the invention, top-to-bottom ranking was evaluated by each handicaps and tended to be vague. He valued then highest title holder, Meijin at 9 Dan.
Dan ranks were applied to martial arts by Kano Jigoro, the founder of judo. Kano started the modern rank system when he awarded shodan (the lowest dan rank) to two of his senior students (Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external differentiation between yūdansha (black belt ranks) and mudansha (those who had not yet attained a grade). Kano began the custom of having his yūdansha wear black obi (belts) in 1886. These obi were not the belts karateka and jūdōka wear today—Kano had not invented the jūdōgi (judo uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in kimono. They wore the wide obi still worn with formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern jūdōgi and its modern obi, with white and black belt ranks.
The use of belts to denote ranks were used by different athletic departments within the Japanese school system, most notably for swimmers, prior to their adoption by Kano.[citation needed]
Interesting stuff, particularly the last bit about dan rank being used in
athletics prior to Kano's adoption of it in Judo. Though the above does
not mention this, the kyu/dan system replaced the older menkyo kaiden
system.
Daniel
Edit: What the heck happened to my font???
Last edited:
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