Home Invasions

[SFC JeffJ]

Yes but realistically how often does that happen? Most burglars work singly and sometimes in pairs... but even then one of them might be waiting out in the car waiting and watching for LEO's on patrol.
By "multiple armed bad guys" I am assuming that you are thinking three or more. So how often does that happen to the average home-owner? If you've a kid in a gang and a rival gang really wants revenge and goes as far as the home invasion thing (almost unheard of btw)... then yeah okay...
I'm not trying to invalidate your point Jeff just wondering the possiblity of that ever happening.
If I see that I'm outnumbered then my tactics are going to change radically. I'm no Bruce Willis to try and take 'em out one by one... our house isn't that big anyway. So if I'm facing multiple attackers in my home... :idunno: not sure what I will do... but then again... "No one man knows what he will do in any given situation until it happens."

If it's a single burglar, chances are he won't go into your house if you are there, and will leave if he discovers you are there. There is a rise in home invasions, where your house is entered by armed criminals while you are in bed. One just happened near here a few days ago.

The thing is, you don't know which it is, so it's better to play it safe.

Jeff

 

[MA-Caver]

If it's a single burglar, chances are he won't go into your house if you are there, and will leave if he discovers you are there. There is a rise in home invasions, where your house is entered by armed criminals while you are in bed. One just happened near here a few days ago.

The thing is, you don't know which it is, so it's better to play it safe.

Jeff

True...
That's scary that criminals are banning together to accomplish their ends. Scary for the criminals as well because they might hook up with someone they barely met (in jail/prison) and not realizing that they might be a psychopath.

 

[jks9199]

Yes but realistically how often does that happen? Most burglars work singly and sometimes in pairs... but even then one of them might be waiting out in the car waiting and watching for LEO's on patrol.
By "multiple armed bad guys" I am assuming that you are thinking three or more. So how often does that happen to the average home-owner? If you've a kid in a gang and a rival gang really wants revenge and goes as far as the home invasion thing (almost unheard of btw)... then yeah okay...
I'm not trying to invalidate your point Jeff just wondering the possiblity of that ever happening.
If I see that I'm outnumbered then my tactics are going to change radically. I'm no Bruce Willis to try and take 'em out one by one... our house isn't that big anyway. So if I'm facing multiple attackers in my home... :idunno: not sure what I will do... but then again... "No one man knows what he will do in any given situation until it happens."

There are two basic types of occupied dwelling robberies. The first, less problematic type is when one or maybe two burglaries break into the house, often not thinking anyone is home, and don't want to be discovered. They may or may not become violent if discovered and challenged; it's a crap shoot based on the individuals and their histories. Often simply letting them know you're home will send them running. Get into and stay in your safe area, and call 911. Stay on the line and tell the dispatcher what you're hearing and seeing. EVERY detail that you can give is helpful, and you'll be told when to hang up and go out and meet the cops. (If they haven't come to you.) DON'T blast randomly with a gun -- especially when the police are on the way!

The other type is the real home invasion robbery. These typically involve several (say 2 to 7) robbers who force their way into the home. In my area, they tend to be intra-racial, and very popular with Asian gang bangers. These guys are often VERY violent; they use entry tactics that are not dissimilar to what we cops do on dynamic entries. They often have researched the target and carefully selected the target. As I said -- the best defense is not being a target. Then, don't let strangers in the door. Use peep holes and other means to find out who's at the door before you open it, and if you have some sort of service person (cable, plumber, whatever) show up unexpectedly -- don't open the door until you know why they're there. If they get in... try to retreat to your safe room, or get out of the house, and try to get a 911 call out. Again -- cops investigate 911 hang-ups and open lines. Especially if the open line includes people yelling or screaming...

True...
That's scary that criminals are banning together to accomplish their ends. Scary for the criminals as well because they might hook up with someone they barely met (in jail/prison) and not realizing that they might be a psychopath.

They've been banding together for ages... It's not new.

 

[tellner]

If killing people is easy, then it's time to check into the nearest psychiatric hospital for a good, long stay If it's necessary it's necessary. It does change things when you have a spouse and even more when there are children. All of a sudden it's not just you. It's you and someone for whom you would lay down your life without hesitation. That's squared and cubed when you look down at a baby and realize he or she depends completely on you.

As with so much else, Kipling said it best:

The Married Man

[SIZE=-1](Reservist of the Line)[/SIZE]
​

[SIZE=+2]T[/SIZE]HE BACHELOR ’e fights for one
As joyful as can be;
But the married man don’t call it fun,
Because ’e fights for three—
For ’Im an’ ’Er an’ It
(An’ Two an’ One make Three)
’E wants to finish ’is little bit,
An’ ’e wants to go ’ome to ’is tea!

The bachelor pokes up ’is ’ead
To see if you are gone;
But the married man lies down instead,
An’ waits till the sights come on,
For ’Im an’ ’Er an’ a hit
(Direct or ricochee)
’E wants to finish ’is little bit,
An’ ’e wants to go ’ome to ’is tea.


The bachelor will miss you clear
To fight another day;
But the married man, ’e says “No fear!”
’E wants you out of the way
Of ’Im an’ ’Er an’ It
(An’ ’is road to ’is farm or the sea),
’E wants to finish ’is little bit,
An’ ’e wants to go ’ome to ’is tea.


The bachelor ’e fights ’is fight
An’ stretches out an’ snores;
But the married man sits up all night—
For ’e don’t like out-o’-doors.
’E’ll strain an’ listen an’ peer
An’ give the first alarm—
For the sake o’ the breathin’ ’e’s used to ’ear
An’ the ’ead on the thick of ’is arm.


The bachelor may risk ’is ’ide
To ’elp you when you’re downed;
But the married man will wait beside
Till the ambulance comes round.
’E’ll take your ’ome address
An’ all you’ve time to say,
Or if ’e sees there’s ’ope, ’e’ll press
Your art’ry ’alf the day—


For ’Im an’ ’Er an’ It
(An’ One from Three leaves Two),
For ’e knows you wanted to finish your bit,
An’ ’e knows ’oo’s wantin’ you.
Yes, ’Im an’ ’Er an’ It
(Our ’oly One in Three),
We’re all of us anxious, to finish our bit,
An’ we want to get ’ome to our tea!


Yes, It an’ ’Er an’ ’Im,
Which often makes me think
The married man must sink or swim
An’—’e can’t afford to sink!
Oh ’Im an’ It an’ ’Er
Since Adam an’ Eve began!
So I’d rather fight with the bacheler
An’ be nursed by the married man!

Even more for the woman...

And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
May not deal in doubt or pity—must not swerve for fact or jest.
These be purely male diversions—not in these her honour dwells.
She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.

​

​

OK, the biologist in me says "To a female mammal a single offspring represents a greater investment of resources than it does for a male. Further, the male can never be sure of the parentage of his putative offspring, unlike the female. Thus there is a tendency for female mammals to more carefully guard their offspring." But that's a hell of a lot less poetic



The safe area concept is a great one. I'm a little worried about treating it as inviolable. House clearing is dangerous and difficult, but sometimes there isn't any alternative. If your kid is somewhere else in the house or your spouse is wounded you can't just say "I'm behind the locked door. SOP says don't move." At least in your own house you have the advantage of familiarity with the terrain, especially if the lights are off. In our case the safe area isn't a room where we huddle behind the door. It's a prepared ambush position. None of our interior doors will stop a strong determined person much less a bullet. We've chosen (and drilled) a plan that gives us certain advantages while making best use of the terrain.

The dogs? We love them. They love us. If they are hurt or killed defending us we will be heartbroken. But that's The Arrangement, and we all understand it. We feed, love and protect them. They love and protect us because we are all Pack. We didn't get dogs just to be self-propelled weapons. That is simply one of their potential functions. And we'd rather not have the responsibility of a guard- or protection-trained dog.

 

[Drac]

and try to get a 911 call out. Again -- cops investigate 911 hang-ups and open lines. Especially if the open line includes people yelling or screaming...

Yes we do...

They've been banding together for ages... It's not new.

Recently a new scam surfaced..A teen came to the front door of a house dressed as a pizza delivery man..He attempted to get the female to open the dooe to verify the phone number, he said he couldn't read it in the dim porch light..She FINALLY managed to get her husbands attention who was on the couch watching sports and he came to the door..The kid saw him and ran, and so did the 2 OTHERS that were hiding in the bushes..

 

[MJS]

Seems that this was more of a burglary in progress than an invasion, as the home owner was not home. Unfortunately, crime is high in the city and moreso in this particular area. Neighbors report things such as this:

First, the neighbors say, someone got into his basement and stole the copper pipes he planned to use for new plumbing. Then, his tools - all but a hammer and a screw driver - were stolen. Eddie moved in anyway. Within the week, a neighbor saw Eddie's furniture being loaded into a U-Haul truck in broad daylight while he was away.

Pretty sad IMHO. So, as this homeowner was entering the home, he interupted the burglary and ended up stabbing one.

More

 

[jks9199]

Recently a new scam surfaced..A teen came to the front door of a house dressed as a pizza delivery man..He attempted to get the female to open the dooe to verify the phone number, he said he couldn't read it in the dim porch light..She FINALLY managed to get her husbands attention who was on the couch watching sports and he came to the door..The kid saw him and ran, and so did the 2 OTHERS that were hiding in the bushes..

Note the use of a ruse (or, thankfully, an attempt in this case!) to get into the house. If you didn't order a pizza, and one shows up... Ask why. If the driver needs your lights (isn't that what your porch light is for?) to read his slip... how'd he find your house in the first place? What's wrong with the dome light in his car? YOU know you didn't order the pizza, call for the cable guy, or whatever. Legit services will identify themselves, and often call before they make unscheduled calls. Cops have IDs and badges. People don't deliver pizza/Chinese/takeout food without an order.

It's a bit of topic, but I'm gonna throw out two other common scams. First -- this is the time of year that solicitors start showing up at the door, selling magazines, cleaner, or whatever. Most places require solicitors to obtain some sort of license or permit. Ask for them. If the salesperson can't provide it -- call it in. While many of the companies are legitimate in that you'll get whatever you order -- many aren't. And many count on people not reporting them, and the kid selling takes the hit if they're cited, not the company that put them up to it.

The other scam takes place at homes or even in parking lots or gas stations. Someone comes up, and says they're a neighbor. They need $20 for gas, because their father (or mother or kid... you get the idea) is in the hospital, and they just need gas money to get there... They'll pay it back next week... It's not a lot of money, you think they're a neighbor, and you just want to be a good neighbor yourself, so you lend them the money. Guess what -- you won't see that money again! In today's world we don't know lots of our neighbors, but you can still verify some of the basics, like asking their actual address (not "I live in that house" as they point). The truth s that it's not likely that your neighbors will need to contact you for gas money or cab fare like that...

 

[Drac]

Note the use of a ruse (or, thankfully, an attempt in this case!) to get into the house. If you didn't order a pizza, and one shows up... Ask why. If the driver needs your lights (isn't that what your porch light is for?) to read his slip... how'd he find your house in the first place? What's wrong with the dome light in his car? YOU know you didn't order the pizza, call for the cable guy, or whatever. Legit services will identify themselves, and often call before they make unscheduled calls. Cops have IDs and badges. People don't deliver pizza/Chinese/takeout food without an order.

Yes, one of the items that raised doubt in her mind (besides the fact they didn't order pizza) was the delivery vehicle was parked at the end of her driveway and had no signs..Most of the pizza delivery cars have a magnetic signs on the doors or one of those roof mounted jobs..

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm very happy to have the input of LEO professionals on this (important question, don't we have any British cops on the fora (the alternate, UK, perspective would be most welcome?)).

From personal experience I can attest that this sort of 'con' can work even if you think you're on the ball.

Just last week I actually answered a knock at the door at 12:45 in the morning to a chap (non-white as it happens) holding a plastic bag in one hand and a 'slip' in the other claiming to be from a 'fast food' delivery company.

I slipped up in the fact that I answered the door at all at that time of the day (my excuse being 'spinal reflex' trained for decades to answer the door when someone knocks :O).

Fortunately, my other 'spinal reflex' cut in as, whilst I opened the door, bleery eyed, in my dressing-gown and slippers, my other hand took hold of the wakizashi on the shelf next to the entrance. My nose helped too as I did not detect any associated fragrancies in the air.

A short dialogue ensued, with which I won't bore our members, but the upshot of which was that if he wished to make me believe that he was trying to deliver fast food to my house at 12:45 he'd probably be better off actually having some in the bag he was holding. Plus, his mate standing outside the delivery car would've been better advised to spend his time actually putting some decals on it for the (local) company they purported to represent.

Please note that this is not a verbatim transcript and that threats to stick 20" (off-the-cuff estimate) of steel where the sun don't shine, when his mate started to move up our drive are alleged only.

Fortunately that's as far as it went (showing that even fat middle-aged men can have their moments of glory ) but is frighteningly revealing of what can go on even in 'decent' neighbourhoods.

I have a question that devolves from this. I haven't told my missus, who was asleep at the time and did not wake up, that this happened (well not exactly, I said it was a 'wrong address'). Should I tell her and frighten her, that every delivery person at odd hours is a potential robber, or 'leave it alone' in the hope that it will be me to face it if one of these ever becomes a real problem (because I have to be honest and say that there is no way my missus is answering the door at that time of day).

 

[jks9199]

I have a question that devolves from this. I haven't told my missus, who was asleep at the time and did not wake up, that this happened (well not exactly, I said it was a 'wrong address'). Should I tell her and frighten her, that every delivery person at odd hours is a potential robber, or 'leave it alone' in the hope that it will be me to face it if one of these ever becomes a real problem (because I have to be honest and say that there is no way my missus is answering the door at that time of day).

You don't have to tell your wife about them showing up at your door if you don't feel that it would be beneficial. But I would advise her of the scam generally; something along the lines of "honey, I heard about this... Be careful who you open the door to..."

 

[MA-Caver]

Sukerkin, IMO and though I'm not married I think thus... She's your wife, your best friend and confidant and next time it might be SHE who opens the door.
Tell her and do so asap. Successful marriages from what I've seen are those that have total and absolute open lines of communications. She should know as much as you do when it concerns the safety of your household.
If she bawls you out for opening the bloody door at 12:45 am then rightfully so. You did it to yourself but she should have a say eh? But after it's all calmed down talk it over and make her aware.
Awareness is one of the primary keys to preventing crime. Tell her mate and that right soon. :asian:

 

[Sukerkin]

You're right, chaps, it's best to let her know that such things can happen.

Also, as ever when re-reading late-night posts in the cold light of day, I made it sound a whole lot more dramatic than it was. Altho' I had a wakizashi to hand, I never produced it into sight, tho' I suppose having the confidence that it was there may have helped in my quiet conversation with these odd fellows.

To be honest, I don't think they were 'interested' once they realised that someone was in and awake (so this is really not on-topic for a "Home Invasions" thread ). My guess is that they were looking for an empty house (it being a sort of holiday season around here at that time) and had the 'delivery' as a cover story in case they encountered what they actually did i.e. someone answers a knock at the door.

It's a poor cover but it worked if you think about it as they were off without me being any the wiser as to who they were (and I didn't get a good look at the car (very bad streetlighting and lots of trees)).

My neighbour is a policeman and he says that such things are not uncommon and there's not a lot that they can do about it :shrugs:.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

We live in open times, where women have equal rights and that is a great thing.

But any noncombatant in a situation needs to shut their mouth and obey any commands giving by the head of houshold in a potentially violent situations.

It sounds chauvenistic and all, but if the female and or kids are not in on any preplanned action, they must stay out of the way, any interference causes situational conjestion, which can get everyone killed.

My Lady is a strongly oppionated person, we argue a good deal, I get her oppinions on things she knows about and things she knows nothing about and I eat it and as we live in today's World,that's fine, but she knows in any protective situation, I AM GOD AND WILL BE OBEYED!
I have seen women get in the middle of fights and get their man beat down because of it, it's just stupid.

We have a "Word" at the house and when she hears it, both kids get tossed in a corner of a room, with her holding a peice of Military grade hardware at the door, while I take an aggressive role.
I have sprang this on her out of the blue and she did everything right.

She also knows on the outside, to get behind me and to clear away if I enter into a standing fight and where to stomp him if we go to the ground.

 

[Kacey]

But any noncombatant in a situation needs to shut their mouth and obey any commands giving by the head of houshold in a potentially violent situations.

It sounds chauvenistic and all, but if the female and or kids are not in on any preplanned action, they must stay out of the way, any interference causes situational conjestion, which can get everyone killed.

It does sound chauvinistic - because, IMHO, it is. Many heads of household are female, while your statement assumes they are male. And by your own description, when your wife hears the "word", she takes preplanned action - and is therefore part of the plan. How would you feel if I said the same thing you did, but changed the one sentence to "if the male and or kids are not in on any preplanned action..."? Your post, as written, seems to assume that only adult males can be "in on any preplanned action", that all females and children can do is cower while the adult male takes care of the situation. What happens if you're not home? What do all of those households led by women do? I don't disagree that non-combatants need to stay out of the way - but I don't agree that only adult males should be in charge.

 

[Drac]

Fortunately that's as far as it went (showing that even fat middle-aged men can have their moments of glory ) but is frighteningly revealing of what can go on even in 'decent' neighbourhoods.

Yes..There is many a tough guy languishing in jail today because they thought they could beat this fat middle age copper..

 

[Drac]

It does sound chauvinistic - because, IMHO, it is. Many heads of household are female, while your statement assumes they are male. And by your own description, when your wife hears the "word", she takes preplanned action - and is therefore part of the plan. How would you feel if I said the same thing you did, but changed the one sentence to "if the male and or kids are not in on any preplanned action..."? Your post, as written, seems to assume that only adult males can be "in on any preplanned action", that all females and children can do is cower while the adult male takes care of the situation. What happens if you're not home? What do all of those households led by women do? I don't disagree that non-combatants need to stay out of the way - but I don't agree that only adult males should be in charge.

GREAT post..No juice to give you a reppie...Resonded to prowler call and met the female after searching the grounds who informed me that had this person had gained entrance to her house I would have had to respond with a Rescue Squad..I believe her..

 

[tellner]

Sukerkin, your wife has a right to know about potential threats to herself and things that concern her. A potential deadly attack qualifies on the same level as a broken gas main. The Ancient Greeks weren't exactly progressive by today's standards, and Hera was known as "The Keeper of the Keys" and "Defender of the Home".

I've been doing some serious thinking and have come up with something a lot more frightening than the "Candygram - Land Shark" thing being discussed. In fact, I predict it will be a minor nightmare for US law enforcement for a couple decades to come.

1. Violent crime has been going up in the last few years
2. Economic opportunity, social stability and real wages are all down. We can argue about the causes; the fact is indisputable
3. Returning vets from Iraq and Afghanistan are economically very badly off compared to the general population of the same age. Homelessness is disturbingly high
4. Their training and combat experience are almost entirely small unit tactics in urban environments
5. A growing - unprecedented in the post-Vietnam era - number is already violent felons, gang-bangers or neo-Nazis thanks to the Uncle Sam's plummetting recruitment standards
6. The US military in its infinite wisdom has decided that PTSD does not exist and that returning vets need no re-acclimation to civilian life or follow-up mental health care
7. There's already been an incident where a small group of Army Rangers staged a by-the-numbers on-the bounce absolutely precise bank robbery

Add up the numbers. Connect the dots. Imagine being a cop having to deal with this sort of thing. Imagine what will happen the first time a SWAT team is obliterated in an ambush or street battle.

 

[jks9199]

You're right, chaps, it's best to let her know that such things can happen.

Also, as ever when re-reading late-night posts in the cold light of day, I made it sound a whole lot more dramatic than it was. Altho' I had a wakizashi to hand, I never produced it into sight, tho' I suppose having the confidence that it was there may have helped in my quiet conversation with these odd fellows.

To be honest, I don't think they were 'interested' once they realised that someone was in and awake (so this is really not on-topic for a "Home Invasions" thread ). My guess is that they were looking for an empty house (it being a sort of holiday season around here at that time) and had the 'delivery' as a cover story in case they encountered what they actually did i.e. someone answers a knock at the door.

It's a poor cover but it worked if you think about it as they were off without me being any the wiser as to who they were (and I didn't get a good look at the car (very bad streetlighting and lots of trees)).

My neighbour is a policeman and he says that such things are not uncommon and there's not a lot that they can do about it :shrugs:.

Actually, it's quite appropriate in this thread. This illustrates one of the ways that the burglary of an occupied dwelling type of home invasion happens. You got a guy using a ruse to ring the bell... No answer, and they go in. Answer... they move on. But... sometimes, there's no answer 'cause everyone's asleep or fail to notice the door bell.

 

[jks9199]

I've been doing some serious thinking and have come up with something a lot more frightening than the "Candygram - Land Shark" thing being discussed. In fact, I predict it will be a minor nightmare for US law enforcement for a couple decades to come.

1. Violent crime has been going up in the last few years
2. Economic opportunity, social stability and real wages are all down. We can argue about the causes; the fact is indisputable
3. Returning vets from Iraq and Afghanistan are economically very badly off compared to the general population of the same age. Homelessness is disturbingly high
4. Their training and combat experience are almost entirely small unit tactics in urban environments
5. A growing - unprecedented in the post-Vietnam era - number is already violent felons, gang-bangers or neo-Nazis thanks to the Uncle Sam's plummetting recruitment standards
6. The US military in its infinite wisdom has decided that PTSD does not exist and that returning vets need no re-acclimation to civilian life or follow-up mental health care
7. There's already been an incident where a small group of Army Rangers staged a by-the-numbers on-the bounce absolutely precise bank robbery

Add up the numbers. Connect the dots. Imagine being a cop having to deal with this sort of thing. Imagine what will happen the first time a SWAT team is obliterated in an ambush or street battle.

It's already happened. In CA, a returning Marine gang-banger used military tactics including advancing into fire to ambush and kill two police officers following his service in the Middle East.

Other gang members have been identified in the military, and interviews have shown that they joined solely to learn the military combat tactics. Some manage to get thrown out after Basic, but others serve in combat, and bring that experience and training home.

And, yes, this is a nightmare for us cops.

 

[MA-Caver]

It's already happened. In CA, a returning Marine gang-banger used military tactics including advancing into fire to ambush and kill two police officers following his service in the Middle East.

Other gang members have been identified in the military, and interviews have shown that they joined solely to learn the military combat tactics. Some manage to get thrown out after Basic, but others serve in combat, and bring that experience and training home.

And, yes, this is a nightmare for us cops.

Then it sounds like you gotta hit them as hard as they hit you. To be better, faster, stronger... all of that... let them know that they can't turn the tables on the law... and that the law will prevail.
I hope and pray for you men and women doing your jobs and duty.