hockey + football, martial arts?

[mrhnau]

I recently read the "Why do Western Martial Arts Lack the "Mystique" of Asian Arts?" thread and the Hockey thread and it caused a thought...

could we consider certain pro sports martial arts? Wee_blondie made an interesting comment about the violence in hockey and martial arts being a substitute. got me thinking...

Lets compare sumo and football. With certain positions in football, they both require a great deal of bulk. They learn how to push and throw their opponents. They learn out to unbalance and control their opponents. they both have a "ring" (or field) they need to control. Speed and control are both critical elements of training, and to master your respective sport, it takes years of dedication and practice. the end result is a rabid fan-base and a finely tuned body and skill set.

Like old martial arts training, you have armor in hockey and football (well, its not called that, but thats its intent). Hockey you learn how to attack and defend. you toughen yourself to take those hits. Fist fights happen frequently in hockey, with the fans greatly enjoying the spectacle.

in both sports, you don't have strict intentions to kill, rather your intent is to score or prevent a score... can we substitute "defend yourself" or "attack someone" for score or prevent a score?

Can we consider hockey and football martial arts?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33827

 

[mantis]

I recently read the "Why do Western Martial Arts Lack the "Mystique" of Asian Arts?" thread and the Hockey thread and it caused a thought...

could we consider certain pro sports martial arts? Wee_blondie made an interesting comment about the violence in hockey and martial arts being a substitute. got me thinking...

Lets compare sumo and football. With certain positions in football, they both require a great deal of bulk. They learn how to push and throw their opponents. They learn out to unbalance and control their opponents. they both have a "ring" (or field) they need to control. Speed and control are both critical elements of training, and to master your respective sport, it takes years of dedication and practice. the end result is a rabid fan-base and a finely tuned body and skill set.

Like old martial arts training, you have armor in hockey and football (well, its not called that, but thats its intent). Hockey you learn how to attack and defend. you toughen yourself to take those hits. Fist fights happen frequently in hockey, with the fans greatly enjoying the spectacle.

in both sports, you don't have strict intentions to kill, rather your intent is to score or prevent a score... can we substitute "defend yourself" or "attack someone" for score or prevent a score?

Can we consider hockey and football martial arts?

interesting... well sometimes you can consider 'drinking' a martial art if this is the case

 

[bobster_ice]

Good thinking man, if football and hockey were be a martial art, that would mean that TKD isnt the most popular anymore.

 

[ChrisWTK]

As a hockey player, well goaltender, I don't think hockey is a martial art mainly because it doesn't have the same goal. Martial arts is about self defense, while sports are about competition. Even though martial arts have now become mainly sports orientated, they weren't originally.

I actually have more problems being in both sports. The physical aspects are the same, but being a goaltender unafraid of being hit with a puck does little to help me when in sparring the object is to not get hit. Likewise I've picked up kicking the puck which just leaves a horrible rebound.

I think the skill set is similar, but since the objectives is different, sports aren't a martial art. But I have been considering creating a move set for use of a goalie stick as a weapon.

 

[Andrew Green]

Originally? Martial arts go back to prehistory, kind of hard to say that for sure

However we do know that sport based martial arts have been around for 1000's of years, Ancient Olympics as a high level example, probably was around long before that though

 

[ChrisWTK]

Originally? Martial arts go back to prehistory, kind of hard to say that for sure

However we do know that sport based martial arts have been around for 1000's of years, Ancient Olympics as a high level example, probably was around long before that though

Alright then, here's my logic.
Martial Arts is a sport.
Hockey and football are sports.
But I don't agree that hockey or football are a martial art.

 

[mrhnau]

Alright then, here's my logic.
Martial Arts is a sport.
Hockey and football are sports.
But I don't agree that hockey or football are a martial art.

How about Sumo? How would you compare and contrast what a Sumo wrestler does and what a lineman on a football team does?

 

[RoninPimp]

Football, hockey, rugby, and lacrosse are team combat sports imo. That makes them team martial arts imo. Watered down for safety of course. I've always pictured an ancient battle scene looking kind of like a rugby scrum with weapons.

 

[Andrew Green]

A lot of team sports do have connections to combat, even individual sports that might not appear too.

First Olympic event was a foot race, in full armor.

While I wouldn't go so far as to say they are martial arts, there are certainly elements which are combat related in there, perhaps even more battlefield applicable then A good number of "martial arts".

 

[ChrisWTK]

But combat isn't the main focus in hockey. Especially in women's ice hockey where the physical contact is almost completely taken out.

Football, yeah I can see where it relates to sumo wrestling. In fact for training as goalies in ice hockey we sometimes sumo wrestle in our equipment cause it builds up your leg muscles and it's fun.

hmm, i actually love watching all the goalie fights in hockey, they're like rare treasures. i think we'd actually have to figure out what really defines what a martail art is and then compare that to ice hockey and football. I really don't want to say that they are a martial art. They're team sports, not to say that martial arts can't be made into team competition.

perhaps it's just the fact that ice hockey and football are from the americas, while martial arts came from asia.

 

[Paul B]

I think there are many physical and mental attributes that are shared by sport and MA..but I feel that the motivation behind these attributes is what truly seperates them.

Maybe it just *seems* like Hockey is an MA because it's so cool. :wink2:

Gotta go..3rd period Sabres-Sens 1-1

 

[RoninPimp]

perhaps it's just the fact that ice hockey and football are from the americas, while martial arts came from asia.

-WTF? Asia has a monopoly on the martial arts?

 

[Gemini]

-WTF? Asia has a monopoly on the martial arts?

Though he said nothing about a monopoly, I think the point being, they're from 2 different cultures.

 

[Gemini]

In fact for training as goalies in ice hockey we sometimes sumo wrestle in our equipment cause it builds up your leg muscles and it's fun.

LOL! I'd pay to see that! I was a goalie too, once upon a time, but I have to admit, that style of training is unfamiliar to me. I bet it was a blast.

 

[ChrisWTK]

Though he said nothing about a monopoly, I think the point being, they're from 2 different cultures.

Thanks for understanding me.

LOL! I'd pay to see that! I was a goalie too, once upon a time, but I have to admit, that style of training is familiar to me. I bet it was a blast.

hmm, maybe I could make it a sport and make money off it.-vampfeed-

 

[Last Fearner]

Can we consider hockey and football martial arts?

Anyone can "consider" it, but I believe it would be wrong. The Martial Art (not plural "Arts," but singular "Art") is a way of life, from the viewpoint of a warrior, with the skills of a warrior who has the ability to protect life, take a life, or spare a life, which also encompases the appreciation for all life, and the beauty in the experience of daily life.

There are many variations, and names by which we call this one Art, and many systems of physical combat which focus on various aspects of striking, holding, and throwing as well as avoiding, blocking and parrying, but the underlying philosophy, attitude, respect, and goals should be the same.

The Martial Art skills can be used for sport competition (fun and games, while challenging your skills), but the Martial Art itself is NOT a sport. The "sport aspect" of the Martial Art is a sport. Conversely, any sport which physically resembles the movements and skills used in the Martial Art, does not make that sport a Martial Art.

If a fight broke out during a Hockey match, and the referee tapped the two players on the shoulder, and they immediately stopped fighting, stepped back and bowed to the referee with respect to his authority, then you would begin to have a set of manners, and attitude similar to the Martial Art (although many fans would be disappointed), but there is so much more to the complete philosophy and lifestyle of a Martial Artist than the physical combat skills.

In my opinion, not all competitors, warriors, soldiers, and those skilled in battle are automatically Martial Artists. There have been armies and warriors throughout history in many countries and cultures, and while no country has a monopoly on the Martial Art today, the origins are attributed to the Asian culture because this is where the fusion of combat skills, and the unique warrior philosophy of life, as taught in true Martial Art education, were first recognized historically. Competitors are competitors, Soldiers are soldiers, Warriors are warriors, but Martial Artists are a whole other breed - IMHO.

Many people would like to think they are Martial Artists because they study fighting skills, but they lack the proper attitude, respect, manners, and personal habits (avoiding: smoking, drinking, drugs, cursing, abusing women, bullying, etc.) that are essential to a Martial Art way of life.

This was an excellent question, and a very good thread, but my opinion is very strict on this subject.
Don't judge the Martial Art by the physical activity, but by the mental attitudes, philosophical attributes, as well as the spriritual enlightenment sought after.

CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[wee_blondie]

Great question bud, but I think maybe my comments were misunderstood. What I meant about MA filling the gap was that instead of drinking beer and watching the game in the pub with my buddies, I'm now training more regularly and sparring with fellow students! :asian:

Anyway, back onto the issue at hand.... I don't think hockey could be a martial art. Mainly because there are no rules for off the ice. A basic example would be that we as MA students are always encouraged not to brag about our skills or use them as weapons unless there is a danger to life (yours or someone who needs help). Whereas a hockey player could (if they were so inclined) get into a barfight and beat the living daylights out of his opponant by grabbing the shirt and landing a few solid hits to the face/ribcage. (not talking pro-hockey here as I am aware they have a code of conduct)

As was said before, MA is a lifestyle not a sport.

Heather