History Of SKK Kata

[LawDog]

I totally agree with Professor Shuras post # 27. Most of the older SKK guard are on the same page.
:ultracool

 

[Joe Shuras]

Thank you, Sir. While I studied SKK at one time, wasn't taught any real background knowledge. so am trying to go back and fill that in since I still practice much of what I learned. Your posts go a long way in aiding my quest. :asian:

You're welcome, sir. I noticed in one of Jesse's post, he stated that the forms had changed several times in SKK. I had switched from Goju in '73 to SKK in '74, although it was called Chinese Kenpo Karate back then and left in '81 and by then it was SKK. (Although there was period in the 80's it was called American Shaolin Kempo, not reflected on the patches or certs but in Gm. Villari's first book and various lineage trees of that era). The forms were very consistant, even from school to school, not just Dedham where Mr. Villari's headquarters was moved to from Waltham early on. There may have been a few very, very minor differences amongst schools but nothing to lose sleep over.

I remember Gm. Villari having a black belt workout in the late's 70's where he went over all the forms up to the Nenglis set. This included Honsuki and Shou Tung Kwok. He also covered all combinations up to 39. Myself and my friend from Waltham, Rick Modica, paid very close attention, made sure we had everything down so we could fall back on one another for reference later on because our goal was to keep everything the way he showed us. I have done that. In my years of training with others plus my own perspective of the art, I have altered a few things and added to others but I don't feel it's enough to now call it my own system, per se. However, I always retained what we went over at that workout, so I could show a student the original I was taught and then any modification or addition I had made.

I don't know if SKK consistency has changed in the many years after my depature but my guess would be this. Perhaps, Mr. Villari's organization kept the forms 'essentially' the same but the different break away groups changed things somewhat, hense, the diversity in some of these forms. Can anyone add to that? - Joe

 

[Hand Sword]

Master Shuras,

Thanks for the clarification. I had heard that Mr. Cerio got the pinians, except for #2, from an Oyama book. I assumed it was Kyokushinkai. Then I saw a link in another thread that went to youtube, where it was listed as kyokushinkai forms. That's why I went with that in my post. Sorry to all, my Bad!

So, they are really Shotokan forms? The book Mr. Cerio got it from was Mr. Oyama doing Shotokan?

 

[Joe Shuras]

Master Shuras,

Thanks for the clarification. I had heard that Mr. Cerio got the pinians, except for #2, from an Oyama book. I assumed it was Kyokushinkai. Then I saw a link in another thread that went to youtube, where it was listed as kyokushinkai forms. That's why I went with that in my post. Sorry to all, my Bad!

So, they are really Shotokan forms? The book Mr. Cerio got it from was Mr. Oyama doing Shotokan?

No Mike, it was Oyama doing Kyokushinkai. I think it would be more accurate to say they were Shotokan forms modified by Oyama for the Kyukoshinkai system, although I think Taikyoku shodan was used pretty much out of the box. - Joe

 

[Joe Shuras]

I totally agree with Professor Shuras post # 27. Most of the older SKK guard are on the same page.
:ultracool

After all, us 'fossils' have to stick together, lol.:ultracool

 

[DavidCC]

Hi Hand Sword. I'd love to see some of Oyama's forms for comparison. Can you recommend a DVD of Oyama's forms, or maybe even youtube links? Thanks.

If you find the movies "Karate Bull Fighter" and "Karate Bear Fighter", starring Sonny Chiba as Mas Oyama, the opening credits of both movies show the real Oyama performing kata. In Bear Fighter he is doing Sanchin. I don't remember what he was doing in Bull Fighter.

 

[LawDog]

We are the fossill fuel of the future.
iratesku

 

[kidswarrior]

We are the fossill fuel of the future.
iratesku

:lol:

Seriously, though, I'm learning a lot from some of the SK seniors who have been posting recently. And by senior, I don't mean age but experience and been-there-done-that observations.

 

[marlon]

hello, awesome forum!! awesome topic!! i was wondering if anyone felt as though our kenpo/kempo forms lacked congruency.[ i train under professor tom sotis who is now mostly known as a knife-fighting instructor but has spent a great deal of his life training in kenpo]. professor sotis presented me with many questions regarding our forms and it always came back to congruency. his point being-- the forms for any given level are suppose to have self -defense applications known as bunkai, but those applications from the kata are not the required self-defense criteria. it is a direct contradiction to teach that kata hold the techniques/secrets of the art and then resort to other techniques when it comes time to apply them. that being said it really got me thinking as to why the original 26 combinations aren't in our forms ??or maybe why our forms don't better match the way we fight?? we really don't fight the way we practice our kata. i understand and enjoy the benefits of practicing our kata however i do feel as though this is 1 area that the forms come up a little short. i have been viewing this forum for months you guys do an awesome job !! i am very impressed with the feedback on all the topics and enjoy it very much. jason scaduto

I have to say that you are right concerning the pinans and skk fighting there is an inconsistancy but this does not hold true of the kata's. The kata's and forms that are unique to skk are the way skk fights. I must note that Prof. Ingargiola states that he was told by GM Villari to do his pinans with a guard rather than fist on ribs position and bring every block and strike back to the guard position (the hands i mean) and this immediately gives a more skk flavor to the pinans. The pinans are not of skk therefore do not fight like skk. However, i see a great benefit in stance training and basics in the pinans and use them as such. From the begining we examine applications from the forms and at the advanced level...green and up the student is called on to find techniques. Initially they see mainly defenses against punches but we get them up to seeing knife, club, grab defenses and grappling moves. While it is true that i can come up with many applications for the same moves in forms fairly easily...some of the stuff i imagine is just crap. Some stuff is great hopefully by now i come up with more great stuff than crap... The best thing though is to try it against an uncooperative attacker or partner. Taking techniques from forms is a good idea because the forms are built on sound basics and principles this increases the chance of your techniques making sense and having solid basics and principles...but first you have to undeerstand and know your forms well and have those things they teach worked / practiced into your muscle memory. These same thouhgt apply to the mini forms we call counter techniques or combinations or animal techniques...
i explore, make mistakes, learn and hopefully grow with the material...the best of it...grows with me, also.

respectfully,
marlon

 

[MJS]

Just a note:

I split some posts from this thread. This thread is for the history of the SKK katas. You will find the posts on the breakdown of movements here.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[LawDog]

MJS,
I think that you splitting the threads in this way is a good idea.
:ultracool

 

[marlon]

for the record i teach and practice the pinans the way i learned them from masters self defense centers, not the way Shiahn Ingargiola does. i like them this way and i use the guard with the katas
marlon

 

[RevIV]

for the record i teach and practice the pinans the way i learned them from masters self defense centers, not the way Shiahn Ingargiola does. i like them this way and i use the guard with the katas
marlon

Masters Self-Defense Centers took the Villari Pinans and then did kindof a mix and match. The two top people at Masters both know the Shotokan versions and had the higher black belts learn them as well. There were some moves than taken out of the SKK pinans and the older more traditional moves put back in. So in the Masters Self-Defense Versions you had a little SKK and a little traditional put together. As stated before, i do like these forms but like others have said they do not mix with what we teach so i have taken them out of my schools curriculum.. If i were to ever teach them again i would do the straight shotokan versions so as not to mix principal based forms with technique based.
Jesse

 

[LawDog]

RevIV,
What are the major differences between these different versions?

 

[RevIV]

RevIV,
What are the major differences between these different versions?

Just to answer you the best.
are you talking the different versions between FVSSD and MSDC -- or all the differences between these two and the shotakan forms?
Jesse

 

[marlon]

Masters Self-Defense Centers took the Villari Pinans and then did kindof a mix and match. The two top people at Masters both know the Shotokan versions and had the higher black belts learn them as well. There were some moves than taken out of the SKK pinans and the older more traditional moves put back in. So in the Masters Self-Defense Versions you had a little SKK and a little traditional put together. As stated before, i do like these forms but like others have said they do not mix with what we teach so i have taken them out of my schools curriculum.. If i were to ever teach them again i would do the straight shotokan versions so as not to mix principal based forms with technique based.
Jesse

Jesse, do you see techniques as defense based or priniciple based or both?
respectfully,
marlon

 

[LawDog]

RevIV,
Just between the FVSSD and the MSDC. I know the Shotokan version. Thanks,

 

[RevIV]

Jesse, do you see techniques as defense based or priniciple based or both?
respectfully,
marlon

In the versions that we do it is hard to tell. Because Teachers have put techniques into the Heians and changed them into what we know as pinans. I still teach Heian Nidan at my intermediate level as well as a simple short kung fu form that i added. Now both of these forms help my intermediate students develop their stance work. Between those two forms we have - Cat stance/ back stance/forward stance/ dragon stance(deep twist)/ exagerated crane stance/ and Bow stance(bow and arrow).
Jesse

 

[RevIV]

RevIV,
Just between the FVSSD and the MSDC. I know the Shotokan version. Thanks,

Ok-

3 pinan -
FVSSD - after the first hand sets left and right - they do a #2 block thrust punch then the parry spear
MSDC - went back to the midlevel block of shotokan
FVSSD - I had the movements for coming back up the middle with the kick cranes wing block and then a back punch to face and tiger to groin
MSDC - had no tiger went back to the check position.

4 pinan
FVSSD - after the simo. kick back fist then head grab elbow - Villaris did a high block and ridge low to the groin with a few other flowing moves.
MSDC - went to the original/ after 2nd elbow they do the straight shotokan version. Right knife hand straight out in front of neck/ Left hand near left ear. Right Ball kick / grab / twist stance and recon strike down --
the rest is the same

5 stayed pretty similiar
except after the grab Right Crescent kick and then Right Elbow i believe FV did a #1 block and left thrust punch than right back punch where masters put back the right midlevel (reinforced) block
well off to NH to open up the cottage - yeah - dust and dead mice - but what a great day for a road trip and relaxing.
Jesse

 

[LawDog]

RevIV,
Thanks for the follow up. It seems to be a very tangled web.