Jeff Boler
Blue Belt
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041027-123332-5663r.htm
I don't think an election will ever be normal again. It's just sad.
I don't think an election will ever be normal again. It's just sad.
Here come the lawsuits.....
- Thread starter Jeff Boler
- Start date
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PeachMonkey
Guest
I've been nursing a migraine headache all morning, and I literally fantasized about a world where the major parties got together and appointed bilateral committees in order to guarantee transparency in the electoral process (including the selection of neutral election monitors, observers, and directors) -- all to encourage Americans to become involved.
I realize, of course, that this is the silliest kind of pipe dream.
I realize, of course, that this is the silliest kind of pipe dream.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Ah, yes, all the damn Democrats' fault again...hell, they going out and demanding people's right to vote?
This was the article with the big EXPOSE KERRY ad in the middle of it, wasn't it?
In the "Washington Times?" The paper owned by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon? The guy who's on record as saying that the paper is his tool for helping his Unification Church to take over the world, thus fulfilling God's Plan? The guy who was partly financed by the Korean CIA, who did the mass weddings for arranged marriages? The guy who teaches that he himself is the, "Third Adam," the first two of which were Adam and Christ? The guy who got a bunch of top Republicans, including Tom De Lay, together at a fund-raiser in which the agenda was devoted towards crowning (yes, I mean literally) the good Rev. Moon, "King of the World?"
Oh. Well, perfectly reliable source, absolutely fair and balanced. No wonder we worry about the Democrats and their lawyers.
Basic philosophical difference: every time the Democrats get nailed for election improprieties, they have to do with signing people up to vote, or suing on behalf of the right to vote; every time the Republicans get nailed, it has to do with denying people the right to vote or trashing their ballots.
Hm. What can we learn from this?
This was the article with the big EXPOSE KERRY ad in the middle of it, wasn't it?
In the "Washington Times?" The paper owned by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon? The guy who's on record as saying that the paper is his tool for helping his Unification Church to take over the world, thus fulfilling God's Plan? The guy who was partly financed by the Korean CIA, who did the mass weddings for arranged marriages? The guy who teaches that he himself is the, "Third Adam," the first two of which were Adam and Christ? The guy who got a bunch of top Republicans, including Tom De Lay, together at a fund-raiser in which the agenda was devoted towards crowning (yes, I mean literally) the good Rev. Moon, "King of the World?"
Oh. Well, perfectly reliable source, absolutely fair and balanced. No wonder we worry about the Democrats and their lawyers.
Basic philosophical difference: every time the Democrats get nailed for election improprieties, they have to do with signing people up to vote, or suing on behalf of the right to vote; every time the Republicans get nailed, it has to do with denying people the right to vote or trashing their ballots.
Hm. What can we learn from this?
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MisterMike
Guest
That it's just as bad to sign up illegitimate voters as it is to deny votes from others?
OP
OP
Jeff Boler
Blue Belt
rmcrobertson said:
Whoa, jumping to conclusions aren't you? I completely believe that the entire election process needs to be overhauled. What you are seeing in Florida now is due to the bunk that happened in the previous election. At the very least, the whole process should be a tad more reliable, as the attorneys, if nothing more, will make sure that nothing wrong happens. It's unfortunate, but I don't think anything has actually changed in Florida.
However, I am of the belief that not all people should be able to vote. If someone is not competent enough to check a box stating that they are a US citizen, then do we really want people like that to vote in the first place?
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
Talk about the tail wagging the dog. It seems to me that if the person is 18 or older, a valid US citizen, and registered to vote, then the voting system should be tailored to them, no matter how stupid they may be, because that's the idea of voting: every valid voter has the right to vote.Jeff Boler said:
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PeachMonkey
Guest
RandomPhantom700 said:
Careful, RP700; you're advocating a system where people other than the wealthy might have a say in how things are run.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
I see. You borrow from a wildly-biased source, argue that this has nothing to do with partisanship, and conclude by dragging fabled hordes of ignernt illegals into the discussion.
What we can conclude, Mr. Mike, is that even when they're totally wrong (hey, get some real ammo! read about Mayor Daley and the 1960 election voting in Ohio!!), the Democrats's basic philosophy slants towards getting more people to vote.
And even when they're totally wrong, the Republicans' basic philosophy leans towards denying the vote to as many as possible.
Mr. Boler's last post beautifully bears this out, given that he writes about denying the vote to immigrants (illegal immigrants, he insinuates) who can't
read English good enough for him.
Hey, let's go with that. Education and knowledge as determiners of who gets to vote! tell ya what: we play my my rules, and nobody without an advanced degree can vote.
Why? Well, clearly--and I write as a professional educator with an advanced degree in English--my objective evaluation of the situation tells me that you and Mr. Boler are incompetent to read and evaluate the material necessary to make an informed decision about your vote. For one thing, you've shown me--again, speaking merely as a professional--that your reading comprehension skills are lacking, and that you are simply being swayed by fearmongering rhetoric.
It really doesn't matter that you can read and write. The issue, as Mr. Boler raised, is competence to vote in a rational and informed fashion. I am more-qualified than you to judge this; therefore, I get to decide.
Gee, nothing wrong with that picture, is there?
Hey, I've an idea. Let's bring back the poll tax, and racially-biased tests for voter skills.
I continue to be astonished by the sheer un-Americanness of these arguments from the Right.
What we can conclude, Mr. Mike, is that even when they're totally wrong (hey, get some real ammo! read about Mayor Daley and the 1960 election voting in Ohio!!), the Democrats's basic philosophy slants towards getting more people to vote.
And even when they're totally wrong, the Republicans' basic philosophy leans towards denying the vote to as many as possible.
Mr. Boler's last post beautifully bears this out, given that he writes about denying the vote to immigrants (illegal immigrants, he insinuates) who can't
read English good enough for him.
Hey, let's go with that. Education and knowledge as determiners of who gets to vote! tell ya what: we play my my rules, and nobody without an advanced degree can vote.
Why? Well, clearly--and I write as a professional educator with an advanced degree in English--my objective evaluation of the situation tells me that you and Mr. Boler are incompetent to read and evaluate the material necessary to make an informed decision about your vote. For one thing, you've shown me--again, speaking merely as a professional--that your reading comprehension skills are lacking, and that you are simply being swayed by fearmongering rhetoric.
It really doesn't matter that you can read and write. The issue, as Mr. Boler raised, is competence to vote in a rational and informed fashion. I am more-qualified than you to judge this; therefore, I get to decide.
Gee, nothing wrong with that picture, is there?
Hey, I've an idea. Let's bring back the poll tax, and racially-biased tests for voter skills.
I continue to be astonished by the sheer un-Americanness of these arguments from the Right.
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MisterMike
Guest
Bzzzzztt!!! Wrong. Voter Fraud is still voter fraud.
Oh, and with the proverbial gap getting wider, why should the Dem's have to work so hard to continue to get more lower class votes (illegally), since obviously more of their programs favor the lower class?
I would think the status quo would work in their favor. But then since the House and Senate have had Republican majoprity for years now those dirty bastards must really be out blocking the votes.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
1. It's, "majority," not, "majoprity."
2. My point was not that what the Democrats did was OK; it was that the different emphasis of their mistakes revealed something about their basic philosophy, in contradistinction to the Republican philosophy of restricting voting rights.
3. I raise the spelling and comprehension issue because I've decided to go with the Republican approach: people who cannot spell and cannot comprehend well-explained arguments should not be awarded the privilege of voting in this great country.
2. My point was not that what the Democrats did was OK; it was that the different emphasis of their mistakes revealed something about their basic philosophy, in contradistinction to the Republican philosophy of restricting voting rights.
3. I raise the spelling and comprehension issue because I've decided to go with the Republican approach: people who cannot spell and cannot comprehend well-explained arguments should not be awarded the privilege of voting in this great country.
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MisterMike
Guest
2. No it doesn't. Not by any scientific standards you espouse so much.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Oh. I AM sorry, Mr. Mike. But I AM the authority here on matters of grammar and comprehension, with FAR more professional competence in these areas, and this continuing inability to get the point of a simple argument merely confirms my initial professional judgment.
You may reapply for voting rights in...let me see...2006, provided you complete the Department's required educational courses.
gee, what's wrong with THIS concept?
You may reapply for voting rights in...let me see...2006, provided you complete the Department's required educational courses.
gee, what's wrong with THIS concept?
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MisterMike
Guest
As far as points one and 3, you have something. My only point, is that it is just as bad to "get the votes" by any means as it is to deny them. For you to say "Hmmf, well, the Democrats mean well...." is well, kinda naughty.
Flatlander
Grandmaster
The most unfortunate aspect of this story is that, in the end, the lawyers are the real winners. How much money do you all suppose they will collectively receive from activities relating directly to this election? I wonder if that money would have been better spent in reorganizing the election process so that the lawyer army needn't be mobilized every 4 years.
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
And the problem with this is?PeachMonkey said:
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raedyn
Guest
ummm.. I think that was exactly PM's point.
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
Ahh, I see. Took the comment to mean somethin' different. :asian:
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Hot off the AP wires:
Fla. County Says Absentee Ballots Missing
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - Up to 58,000 absentee ballots may never have reached the Broward County voters who requested them more than two weeks ago, election officials said, and state police are investigating.
Hundreds of people have called the county elections office to complain that they never got their ballots. The phone system was so overwhelmed some frustrated voters could not get through.
The county election office said the problem involved ballots mailed on Oct. 7-8, though the number of those actually missing was uncertain. Some absentee ballots mailed on those dates have already been returned to be counted.
``We are trying to determine what occurred and whether there was any kind of criminal violation,'' said Paige Patterson-Hughes, spokeswoman for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
The county blamed the U.S. Postal Service. ``That is something beyond our control,'' Deputy Supervisor of Elections Gisela Salas said. ``We really have no idea what's going on.''
Postal officials said the post office was not to blame.
``We have employees that we assign to handle the absentee ballots that come in,'' said Enola C. Rice, a Postal Service spokeswoman in South Florida. ``So all the absentee ballots that are received by the Postal Service are processed and delivered immediately.''
Absentee voters who did not receive a ballot can request another, which officials said would be sent by overnight mail.
In 2000, Broward gave Democrat Al Gore his biggest margin among Florida counties. He received 67 percent of the vote there, while losing the state to George W. Bush by just 537 votes.
Huh.
Yep, them g'damn Democrats. They're the problem, all right.
Fla. County Says Absentee Ballots Missing
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - Up to 58,000 absentee ballots may never have reached the Broward County voters who requested them more than two weeks ago, election officials said, and state police are investigating.
Hundreds of people have called the county elections office to complain that they never got their ballots. The phone system was so overwhelmed some frustrated voters could not get through.
The county election office said the problem involved ballots mailed on Oct. 7-8, though the number of those actually missing was uncertain. Some absentee ballots mailed on those dates have already been returned to be counted.
``We are trying to determine what occurred and whether there was any kind of criminal violation,'' said Paige Patterson-Hughes, spokeswoman for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
The county blamed the U.S. Postal Service. ``That is something beyond our control,'' Deputy Supervisor of Elections Gisela Salas said. ``We really have no idea what's going on.''
Postal officials said the post office was not to blame.
``We have employees that we assign to handle the absentee ballots that come in,'' said Enola C. Rice, a Postal Service spokeswoman in South Florida. ``So all the absentee ballots that are received by the Postal Service are processed and delivered immediately.''
Absentee voters who did not receive a ballot can request another, which officials said would be sent by overnight mail.
In 2000, Broward gave Democrat Al Gore his biggest margin among Florida counties. He received 67 percent of the vote there, while losing the state to George W. Bush by just 537 votes.
Huh.
Yep, them g'damn Democrats. They're the problem, all right.
heretic888
Senior Master
Now now, Robert....
While I agree with your basic ideas here, I think it is fruitless to paint an entire political party with any one brush. Clearly, not all Republicans would approve of this illegal debauchery. Likewise, not all Democrats are so opposed to denying some people the ability to vote.
In the end, it all falls on certain "cliques" of individuals within parties that are trying to achieve a political agenda of some sort. Unsurprisingly, they're once again supporters of the Bush family and the Cheney-Wolfowitz neoconservative coalition. Eck. You think this is bad, try and remember the crap they pulled to steal the Republican primaries from McCaine in 2000. Shameful.
While I agree with your basic ideas here, I think it is fruitless to paint an entire political party with any one brush. Clearly, not all Republicans would approve of this illegal debauchery. Likewise, not all Democrats are so opposed to denying some people the ability to vote.
In the end, it all falls on certain "cliques" of individuals within parties that are trying to achieve a political agenda of some sort. Unsurprisingly, they're once again supporters of the Bush family and the Cheney-Wolfowitz neoconservative coalition. Eck. You think this is bad, try and remember the crap they pulled to steal the Republican primaries from McCaine in 2000. Shameful.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Working backwards, the now now, tut-tut, there-there my boy, may be ill-advised.
I simply quoted a news article. Before that, I commented on philosophy, not people. And as for the philosophy of pure individualism on which you rely for the start of your last paragraph (parties don't kill voting--people do) I see that by the last half of your last paragraph, you've essentially reversed yourself.
There there my boy, tut tut, now now, right back atcha.
I simply quoted a news article. Before that, I commented on philosophy, not people. And as for the philosophy of pure individualism on which you rely for the start of your last paragraph (parties don't kill voting--people do) I see that by the last half of your last paragraph, you've essentially reversed yourself.
There there my boy, tut tut, now now, right back atcha.
