Help- Translation needed!

OP
S

sgerhardt45

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Aaron,

You are missing a key point, so I'll explain it again in the hopes you understand it. There have been many black coloured flags, nobody is disputing. However, this black flag organization described themselves as part of a 5 flag society. The 5 flags appear only once in official Chinese history, and that is as a group of bandits. You can argue every black flag you want, but the 5 flags appear only one time, and that is as bandits.

Now you can try to describe them as lodges now as in Sergio's video to try and distance yourself from the issue, but the truth remains. Whether or not Black Flag is good? Who knows. I've heard a lot of good things about VIKOGA wing chun, which appears to be it's base. But if what's in the youtube video is true, the lack of credibility of the people presenting Black flag (Lin, Benny Meng and Sergio), the Black Flag organization doesn't look good.

As for whatever documentation you may have, give me some construction paper and crayons and I can come up with documentation too, most likely with as much veracity behind it as what you provide.
 

vtchisel

White Belt
Joined
Jul 20, 2010
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Guys
5-flag bandits started in the mid 1800s, starting as a small group of a few hundred members and growing as large as 100,000 members by the early 1900s. During this same period between mid 1800s to early 1900s, China fell and rebuilt. From the mid 1800s, Chinas control over different regions fractured and fell under control of different foreign powers. This chaos gave rise to lawlessness, bandits and the formation of the 5-flag bandits in Shandong province. This is the only period of time that the 5-flags existed in Chinas history. Shandong province, Black Flag/5-Flag and Japan are all connected by this turmoil time period. Japan had influence and control of Shandong province that allowed the 5-flag bandits to grow. The 5-flag bandits expanded from Shandong province to other regions of China to grow in power and membership as high as 100,000. There is no dispute Fukien had black flag gang members because of these internal struggle in China. Into the 1900s China struggled to unify and regain political and economical power for the Chinese people. There was a lot of resentment from the Chinese people toward foreigners and bandits, so much that the 5-flag bandits had to go into hiding. The resentment was especially high for Chinese who killed and robbed Chinese. The 5-flag bandits hid where they could for fear of being identified and executed. So it makes logical sense that by 1903, anybody found to be a member of black flag bandits or any of the 5 flags bandits, would have to fear for his life if his identity was found out by the Chinese people or government. It also makes logical sense for one to flee outside of China to such places as Indonesia. For these reasons, it makes logical sense that black flag gang members had to be a secret. The VTM and Black Flag don't dispute that black flag members learned Fukien Lo Han kung fu. What's NOT TRUE is there never was a 5 flag Wing Chun or black flag Wing Chun, it never existed! Kenneth Lins Fukien Black Flag is really Lo Han kung fu. According to the VTM report: the nucleus of black flag comes from Cap Pwee Lo Han Jiu (18 Lo Han Open Hand [Jiu]). Also according to black flag, King Yang learned 5 ancestors. The only Wing Chun connection is that Kenneth Lin learned Vikoga Wing Chun from Victor Leow lineage and of which Black Flag today calls female wing chun (Yim Wing Chun/Ng Mui). Lo Han Jiu/5 Ancestors make up the Black Flag so called male wing chun for the 5 male ancestors. All this info is from Black Flag though the years. The Black Flag wing chun video on youtube doesnt prove anything but support the VTM and Black Flag web site revisions that Black Flag is really Lo Han. The few pictures on the video, shows students doing Fukien Lo Han Kung Fu. In summary and its a long list: Fukien Lo Han, 5 Ancestors kung fu, Black Flag gang member from Fukien, Vikoga Wing Chun, 5-flag wing chun, 5-bandana wing chun, 5-lodges wing chun, 5 male wing chun(5 male ancestors)/ 1 female wing chun(Yim Wing Chun/Ng Mui), 5 Ancestor = 5 flag/banana/lodges, Kenneth Lin, VTM versus actual history show that Black Flag Wing Chun is made up. There are so many more holes to to expose but we know there will be many revisions/clarification from Black Flag and associates. Note that all this information came from Black Flag over the years. If you take an objective review yourself you will find the same inconsistencies. I find this insulting to all generation of the Chinese people, all Shaolin Kung Fu and the martial art seekers.
 

wushuguy

Purple Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
378
Reaction score
7
Location
NYC
hmmn, this flag debate has been interesting. Authentic history or not, as long as it is useful and the people studying it like what they're getting, then why not? Tradition and history can be skewed at times even with official lineages.

Anyway, we usually play capture the flag with two teams, but having 5 teams and 5 different color flags would be a whole lot more fun...

... anyone up for a mass melee game of capture the flag?
 

Aaron McKillip

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
Zac,

It's been a couple years now I think. I am sorry I did not get back to you sooner. I am busy training every day very hard as well as keeping up with my Leadership responsibilties at the school.

"I've had some experiences with the Black Flag Wing Chun or Hek Ki Boen (Fujian) Yong Chun. I was there for the 1st Black Flag Wing Chun seminar at the Wing Chun Museum as well as the 2nd."

Interesting. I was at both the 1st and 2nd HKB seminars and I did not see you there. There was a person from Michigan at both Seminars but it was a different person each time. Can you tell me where you are in both the seminar photos? Maybe then it will jog my memory.

"Im Curious what new research has the VTM uncovered on HKB Eng Chun that can be released to the public?"

There is official documentation that the VTM has but it is not the right time to release that information to the public. As you can see people like sgerhardt45 have already started to devote all there time to trying to destroy our Kung Fu family name. So at the right time the information will be released.

"In regards you state that the Black Flag was the 1st lodge, most important & stayed in Fukien. Is this just oral history, or is there evidence that validates this claim?"

There are books out there right now that are released to the general public that you can look for on the subject of Secret Societies that have all the information in them that you are asking about. I have seen one of the books with my own eyes where it does have the 5 secret societies and it does list Black Flag as the First Lodge, and Red Flag as the Second Lodge. These books are written by actual real researchers of Chinese History, unlike the people (who won't tell us their real names) on the internet that are talking about all the research they are doing from their chair.


"This is more of a blanket statement; as in Self Defense/Combat/Martial Arts skills are adherent to many Martial System as are the philosophy of Chan, & Qigong. Each system has a staple on Health(Even non CMA), so what defines these as Shaolin compared to the others that contain each of these but is not based onthe VTM's research? I think these points would be great to elaborate on, if possible."

Philosophy does exist in most martial arts. But it does not usually go very deep. Especially not to the extent of working on losing the Ego. Chan works on the Ego, as well as helping you release from your attachments in life. So - a Shaolin Martial Art has to have Chan.

Health exists in most martial arts but mostly as a byproduct. It is not usually something that is gone into in great detail. People usually "get in shape" when they study martial arts and that is the extent of it. Even the physical side is usually lacking. So - a Shaolin Martial Art has to go very very deep into all aspects of health including Qigong.

Qigong may exist in some martial arts but it is rarely taught unless you are trusted or advanced and most people do not want to learn it. I strongly disagree that most martial arts have Qigong. I agree that most martial arts want you to breath a certain way when you punch or do a form, but this is not the same. Qigong can get extremely advanced with energy control and different ways of breathing.

Aaron M.
 

Aaron McKillip

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
I read this article previous to this, there are a few others on Chinese websites in similar format as well.

I've had some experiences with the Black Flag Wing Chun or Hek Ki Boen (Fujian) Yong Chun. I was there for the 1st Black Flag Wing Chun seminar at the Wing Chun Museum as well as the 2nd.

It was an interesting system to say the least, is it what it claims to be however? Haha, I'm at a lost as well. There are several different histories being thrown around on Chinese websites some are stating that Black Flag is related to rebels.

Other's are stating that it's a super cool assassin type organization during the reigns of the Qing dynasty with the sole intent of assassinating Qing officials so their system was designed to meet up to this challenge while most other were not.

That is why it's best not to delve too much into Wing Chun history before the 1850's or if you do than just make sure your aware that it may or may NOT be factual, :too much propaganda & sales pitches not enough evidence to validate anything being legit".

So I take oral histories with a grain of salt to say the least regardless of dna or code modifiers or shaolin seals haha or a purple dinosaur stating he knows what was going on in the 1600's when all of this was being formatted. (Not referring to an actual person, just a joke)

But I feel the system itself is truly unique and has an interesting flare, I also seen the Saam Jin Bou which was quite similar to other Nan Mou Seut(Nan Wushu) system with the same form but was also a bit different in a few regards, but different variations are quite common even amongst this 1 form.

But I'm definitely not one to comment on this system, it seems if you have more interests you should contact Sifu Lin Xiang Fuk directly.

Best regards.


Zac,

I remembered a conversation you had on another forum with GM Lin on 7/19/09 about Saam Chian Po (Saam Jin Bou).

Your question was this:
"What is the concepts that are developed through the practice of the SBJ? Is it more based on body mechanics and energetics? Or does it define basic concepts similar to SNT (SLT) in most Wing Chun systems?"

We talked about all of this in the 1st Seminar on 5/16/09. What's more is we all learned the SCP in the 1st Seminar. So you should have no reason to ask this question on 7/19/09. This question clearly shows you have never seen or done the Saam Chian Po form. You didn't even know if there is any difference between SNT and SCP. Plus you called it Saam Bo Jin which is from another artform.
In your post, it did not look like Master Lin had any idea who you were or had ever met you. Here is the conversation:
http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/index.php/topic,263.0.html

As a matter of fact GM Lin had to ask you this question:
"May I also ask to introduce yourself, such as school, lineage, style/system, etc?"

To which you replied:
"As far as lineage I was a student of Master Benny Meng, just train Wing Chun on the side now a days. And once in a while a few workshops here and there."

As far as I know you were a student of Robert Hannon, NOT Master Benny Meng. Master Meng was your Sigung, not your Sifu.

Also I checked around. Not only did I not see you at either of the Seminars, but nobody else saw you there either. So why did you say you were there?

Aaron M.
 
OP
S

sgerhardt45

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Zac,

Also I checked around. Not only did I not see you at either of the Seminars, but nobody else saw you there either. So why did you say you were there?

Aaron M.

Hey Aaron,

Looks like you still don't know how to do proper research.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/fukien/meeting.php
During Suhu Lins research in his own art, He came across the VTM and noted that HFY system has a similar background and is different from the public Wing Chun. After discussing with Sukong [GM] Tio in Indonesia about the connection between HKB Eng Chun (Black Flag Wingchun) and Hung Fa Yi, the Sukong [GM] had the opportunity to visit the United States in 2008. Suhu Lin took this opportunity to speak with Sukong [GM] Tio about the Ving Tsun Museum, located in Dayton, OH. The Sukong [GM] liked the basic idea of the VTM and wanted to give his support. They planned to visit the VTM before Sukong [GM] Tio returned to Indonesia. After making initial contact with the VTM, Master Benny Meng invited Suhu Lin and Sukong [GM] for an official visit. Informed of the invitation, the Sukong [GM] agreed to the meeting and made the decision to contribute what information he could about the HKB Eng Chun (Black Flag Wingchun) family and background in an effort to support the VTM.

The meeting was Friday, November 14th and Saturday, November 15th, 2008.

.....

Below is the report and conclusions based on information (discussion, lecture, and demonstration) collected through personal interviews and personal interaction by VTM staff, headed by Curator Benny Meng, assisted by Sifu Jeremy Roadruck, Sifu Chango Noaks, and Instructor Zach Remley.
 

Aaron McKillip

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
He stated he was at the "First Two Seminars". He was not. He was at the First meeting and presentation. This was before the first 2 siminars. He did not say that. He said "I was there for the 1st Black Flag Wing Chun seminar at the Wing Chun Museum as well as the 2nd."
Learn to read!
Besides the question was for Zac not you.

P.S. Why don't you sign your real name to your posts? I know your name is not Steve. Not with the info you gave me. More likely that your real name is Anthony.
 

Aaron McKillip

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
Joel Pryor



One of the most unique aspects of this system is the training methodology of
this system. Not that it can generate so much power but, because the way
this system is organizes power is a product of the training. It starts off
with the Micro Cosmos where you train the thoughts, muscle and breathing.
The core or the start of this training is Sam Cian Po. It is based on Chan
Buddhism and if done properly it teaches the student not to focus on the
form or the energy but to be mindful of the here and now. It also teaches
the body should be relaxed and light so that when you strike your arm can
act as a super conductor for the energy that is generated. Because there is
no tension in your arms to reduce the power or any recoil, this allows for
the use of maximum power. The system then moves on to the Macro Cosmos which
teaches the student the separation of time and space and how we must occupy
the time and become the space. But ultimately we must understand that that
both time and space is an illusion in Chan the past and the future is just a
distraction the only thing that truly exists is the present moment. Space
is also an illusion it is just energy flowing from one moment to the next.
So to understand this allows the student not to be attached to the change in
time and space so that they do not freeze in combat. Next comes the
training of emptiness. I believe that this express the unlimited potential
of the human being in both combat and in life. If you look close enough at a
sub atomic level everything is made up of space and from nothingness comes
the creation of everything. In emptiness there is no boundary just the
building blocks of the universe and you are only limited by your beliefs or
your imagination to use what the universe has provided you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------

Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun Pai is a Shaolin martial art



By Sifu John Lambert



In the late 1600's the Southern Shaolin temple was destroyed. There were
many forms of martial arts being learned, trained, and developed in the
temple, and it is also believed that most of the Asian martial arts have
their origins in the Shaolin temple. The research of the Ving Chun Museum,
by Sifu Benny Meng, has traced many of the Wing Chun lineages back to the
temple. Some Wing Chun lineages have been taught in the public for decades.
However, a few Wing Chun lineages have kept their arts secret and have
continued their teaching within small groups of practitioners.



Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun Pai (HKBECP) is one of the lineages whose origin was in
the Southern Shaolin Temple has been kept secret. At the present time the
system is being practiced in Indonesia and has been brought to, and is being
instructed, by Su Hu Kenneth Lin in America.



The uniqueness of Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun, as compared to most martial arts
systems who require their practitioners to develop powerful muscles, harden
their bones, and increase their speed through physical attributes, is that
Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun develops its practitioners by teaching them how to
"de-link" their physical body, separate their breathing, and control their
thinking in a manner that is completely foreign to contemporary martial
arts. Further the practitioner is required to gain these skills at the very
onset of their training. It is so subtle that if a person simply observes
it being performed they will not be able to comprehend the depth of what
they are seeing.



The Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun practitioner is trained to keep their shoulder and
arm muscles relaxed, and use their tendons in lieu of their muscles, while
breathing as though they were relaxed and sitting in a chair. It is called
"de-linking" which is the complete separation of the physical connection of
the shoulders and the implementation of the tendons instead. It is based
upon the Eng Chun principles of maximum efficiency and minimum effort. All
of the standard Wing Chun techniques are present in Hek Ki Boen Wing Chun,
but the emphasis is not on generating physical power, but the transference
of "energy" through the limbs and creating the maximum impact from a relaxed
state of being.



In addition to "de-linking" there is the whipping motion, which requires the
practitioner to be in a relaxed state or the energy transference will not
occur. Also, in order to complete the energy transference there must be
"weight" in the hands at the end of the motion. All of these; de-linking,
whipping, and weight in the motion are unique to Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun.



As a Shaolin martial art Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun is based upon the Shaolin
principle of "No Illusions" and therefore the practitioner must remove all
attachments to things such as ego and self-promotion and humble themselves,
by having an open mind and seeking the truth in their practice.



All illusions of self must be disregarded through meditation and
introspection. It is a process of going through a stage of wandering,
enlightenment and finally illusion free.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------



Missy Pruden -- my thoughts on HKB Black Flag



HKB Black Flag is a very unique system for many reasons. HKB can be traced
all the way back to the 1600's, where after the destruction black flag was
one of the original division of secret societies that came out of the
Shaolin temple. The fact that at that era of time it was used for top secret
special operation missions proves that it is a quick, highly precise and
effective system because when you are on that type of mission you need to
have the skill to do what you have to do quickly and get out. So that left
little room for error. HKB Black Flag have formulated methods that are fast,
swift, powerful and precise but what also makes it unique is the separation.
HKB separates the MIND which is your thoughts, the BODY which is the muscle,
and BREATH which is the energy. This helps to detach from oneself, meaning
to free your mind from preconceived thoughts or beliefs and allowing your
mind to be open to all possibilities. By freeing yourself of attachments you
become aware of the constant change of time and space. By freeing your mind
and allowing your body to experience it you are giving your body a complete
overhaul.

Since HKB was hidden secret for a long period of time it maintained
its Shaolin WC identity and has not been personalized or watered down. It
has the 3 treasures Chan, health/fitness and kung-fu/martial arts as well as
the formula; this is the essence of Shaolin WC. This makes black flag
unique because the only society/system that has the true essence of Shaolin
WC that can be traced back to the 1600's is Black flag.

Another uniqueness of Black flag Eng Chun is how the power is
released through separation of limbs so that the energy and explosiveness
comes out at the tips/end of limbs( ex: fist) , which allows the rest of the
body to be detached and relaxed. This allows for a quicker ability to change
and adapt to what ever may be given to you at time of engagement. The normal
human reaction to for instance throwing a punch is to tense up the entire
body in order to generate power. The internal separation of breath helps to
direct energy to where it is needed and not wasted.

The key to some system's teaching is the technique, but with HKB Black
flag the key is you. By this I mean that some systems rely on a certain
technique or skill to showcase power, but with HKB the success of your
training relies on you internalizing it and making it your own by first
keeping an open mind and understanding your thoughts, your body and your
breathing. By doing this our body is not only generating power but focusing
on releasing power. To me I feel to generate is to stir up power whereas to
release is to send power out. This allows us to react/defend ourselves
without relying on brute muscle strength. When in human range with triangle
structure we use the kinetic energy flowing through our limbs rather than
brute force which in itself waste a lot of energy. HKB lacks wasted,
theatrical movements instead the movements are precise and to the point.
This system teaches you to do what you have to do efficiently with out
getting hurt.

There are many unique qualities of HKB Black flag that I am beginning to
experience, but I have not written about because I am still internalizing a
lot about this system, but over time my understanding and explanation will
be greater. I just know that this system is teaching me to become a better
person, a better martial artist both internally and externally by keeping my
mind free of expectations and styles by living through the true nature of
things and the essence of Shaolin WC.
 

Aaron McKillip

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
My martial arts journey began in January of 2009. Under Sifu Lambert I
attained the rank of blue sash in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. This was the extent
of my training before starting in Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun. So far, in my
opinion, there are a few points that make Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun unique.

This system seems to emphasize footwork more than my previous system that
I learned. I can the see the logic behind this. Keeping contact with the
ground increases your stability. Since your legs and feet are your base, if
you not working from a strong base, all your other movements will break down
and be less effective.

Another key difference I have noticed is between Hung Fa Yi's idea of
controlling the space and Hek Ki Boen's idea of becoming the space. The
difference is subtle yet its impact on combat is profound. With controlling
the space you are mainly using your limbs to obstruct your opponents
movements. However in becoming the space, you use your body to obstruct your
opponents movements, freeing your limbs up to destroy your opponent. Thus it
is more efficient.

Hek Ki Boen's emphasis on the internal through its core form Saam Chian
Poh is yet another unique trait. Where as Hung Fa Yi's generation of power
came from structure and muscle tension, Hek Ki Boen teaches you to relax and
through its concept of delinking, reverse the tension, placing it in the
hands, allowing the tendons of your limbs to transfer your energy. Other
systems might teach the internal energy aspects at the end, Hek Ki Boen
teaches it from the beginning and potentially never has an ending. I am very
intrigued to see just how deep the well goes.



Respectfully,



Christopher Conaway

------------------------------------------------------------------



From what I have seen of Yip Man WC, it does not have Chan /Zen . It does
not have Time/Space/Energy. It does not have the same preciseness that I
have seen with the WC Formula. All that is left is the Center Line Theory;
there are no 5 Lines, or Three Reference Points. I have heard people say
that there are 6 gates in YMWC, but I have not learned it as far as I am
aware. The expression of power can be good but since there is no Formula,
depending on your Sifu you may never be able to express good power because
of a bad structure, or because of a lack of understanding of T/S/E. I think
the power comes from the triangle structure in YMWC. As far as the mental
awareness goes most people in YMWC do not even get to the concept level much
less any ****her. From what I have seen of how people are teaching it.
YMWC is mostly technique based, and only coming from 1 range of combat
(Trapping Range).



All the movements in HFY had to be extremely precise. The whole focus was
on Time and Space. I personally believe that the energy was missing from
the equation. Although there is Qigong (Jaam Jong) training involved, I did
not see the expression of it used in any way. I think the way that power
was expressed was through the structure of the body, which provided the
strength to hit with. In turn I believe the punching power came from the
perfect structure and the muscles. I also did not see a lot of smoothness
going from one movement to another. It was very mechanical like a robot. It
seemed to me that the most important thing above anything else was having
the perfect structure at precisely the right time.



What I can derive from my experience with WC so far is that HKB Eng Chun is
different than anything I have studied thus far. I have never seen any WC
express Chan in such a deep manner. I have never seen Detachment expressed
in anything I have ever done before. I can clearly see the link between
Detachment in your Kung Fu, and Detachment in your life. I can see that by
learning how to detach the Body/Mind/Breath you start to learn about how to
detach from your attachments in life, which in turn creates a clearer mind
and helps free you of the clutter so that you can focus better. I see that
this is also the path to rid you of your ego which is very much Buddhist. I
see that Sam Chian Po is a key element in learning this. There is no Sam
Chian Po in any other WC System out there that I know of. Therefore, I do
not see how the other systems of WC can learn about Detachment in their
training. I believe this is honestly the true original information that was
taught in the Southern Shaolin Temple.



I see that Detachment of the body leads to the development of power which
can be delivered regardless of having "a perfect structure". Conventional
methods of punching are usually done with more of a pushing or swinging
force. This is either accomplished with the use of ****ing back for a big
swing, rotating the body to generate a bigger force, or by using the
structure to generate power. HKB uses Detachment to generate power by
"transferring power". This is done by making sure that none of the muscles
are tight except for that which is in the hand, in turn delivering a
crushing force with a Whip and Weight which are similar to a ball and chain.
All the force is at the end. Through conventional methods at least some
force will always come back into your body when you deliver a punch because
of the attachment throughout the arm. When the muscles are not tight, the
arm is not attached to the shock which would normally come back to you.



The first time I saw Master Lin express HKB, I saw a lot of things that I
have learned over the years from several other art forms. I am talking
about things coming from my experiences from internal and external arts. So
in turn when I look at HKB Eng Chun, I do not see only an internal art. I
do not see only an external art (which is the way most people view WC
today). I see a complete system which has not left anything out from the
internal or external world of martial arts. To me this is extremely rare.

Aaron McKillip

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From my observations of HKB. The foot placement, torso crank, and whipping
energy of the punches remind me of a large Commercial Crane used to destroy
brick buildings. The shoulder width foot placement, much like the wide
tracks of the crane, allows for a stable base to direct the energy from.
(Pulling the energy up from the ground and sending out to the ball.) The
torso crank is like the turning of the crane as it swings the large ball
into area of impact. The whipping energy punches of HKB are like the metal
ball which swings and snaps into the building at proper time and place.
The whipping energy of the ball is very powerful but it becomes even more
powerful when the crane turns and swings into the direction of the impact.
This turning energy, combined with the whipping energy of the ball, and the
structurally strong base; all combine to make the blow very precise and very
powerful. The ball has enough energy transferred into the building to cause
destruction and eventually bring the building down to the ground. All these
must be combined in the correct manner to cause this burst of transferred
energy into the enemy/building. Most others systems rely on brute
force/muscle power for this power. This consumes much energy, and causes a
crashing of power which then transfers some of the energy back, instead of
forward into opponent. (Like hitting a wall with a baseball bat.) Also as a
person ages it is much more difficult to generate this brute force power.
With HKB a smaller or older person can continue to generate a powerful burst
of energy-transfer into the opponent, causing much damage in one precise
blow.



Since it was hidden for such a long period of time, it has maintained much
of its original Shaolin nature in its principles and techniques. Such as its
fighting applications and philosophies, this is a great separation from many
other martial arts, and makes the system very unique. HKB oral history,
state that it was created and used for special operation of traitors within
the Secret Societies: then hidden for political purposes. HKB was separate
from the other flag societies; thus creating another distinction. It has
techniques are built for quick and powerful blows within the Human Range.
By gathering heaviness in the hand and utilizing speed in its blows, it
allows for Kinetic Energy to be swiftly transferred into target. There is no
need for any additional distance, which make it very distinct. As other arts
may use only distance and brute force, HKB allows for the utilization of
both Kinetic Energy and stored Potential Energy. This is a great uniqueness
from other types of systems, as quick death blows are quite possible,
without space or distance. Done in a very quick and efficient manner, one
shot, one kill. HKB expression is without flowery movements or unneeded
wastes of energy, efficiency in action, as seen in nature.



The whipping snaps, at the end of the punch, it is like the weapon called a
"Blackjack." A leather wrapped piece of metal with a spring inside. When a
person uses this weapon, they hit the person in the back of head. The spring
allows for a quick snap/whip of energy, which pops quickly into the skull
and causes a fast knock out. These Blackjack are small and held in the hand,
but designed to use little energy and space to cause much damage and even
possible death by snapping the weight. I feel this is a concept unique to
HKB punches.



Scott Tharp
progress.gif
 

Aaron McKillip

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
Hek Ki Boen has drawn my attention toward generating and releasing energy.
All matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration. Controlling and
disrupting vibrations is the essence of the art.



The structure and efficiency of a weapon are highly important but the energy
it releases is of equal if not greater value.



Detachment and relaxation of muscles seems to be the key in moving and
releasing energy.



I have much to learn but am fortunate of the knowledge that is being passed
to me.



With much gratitude,



Phil Holt

----------------------------------------------------------------------



My training so far has brought me to a new understanding of dealing with
things in my life. Now that I am beginning to understand the nature of HKB I
see that the difference between HKB and other systems of WC is Separation
and detachment. This is the closest system that I have experienced that
truly expresses having the DNA of Shaolin. HKB is Qi gong, Internal and
external martial arts, and truly expressing Chan by practicality efficiency
and complete separation of body breath and mind. In these last few months I
have been able to grasp why this is such a treasure and am honored to be
blessed with this opportunity to show and teach this treasure to the world.
I believe that by training in HKB that anyone can make major improvements in
their life by achieving complete separation of body breath.



Kevin Foster

__________________________________________________ __________________________



Over the last year, I've experienced many revelations regarding my wing chun
since I began training in Hek Ki Boen. Unlike other styles & systems
(karate, tae kwon do and other wing chun systems), the energy that is used
to create a powerful strike is obtained through completely different
processes.



In most systems , for example, power is generated by classic means: mass
(muscle) x speed (acceleration) = Force. This kind of power is a basic
formula from physics: m x a=F. This form of power is enhanced through the
application of the wing chun formula and is taught in the beginning of the
system.



Also in Hek Ki Boen , the first concept taught is the detachment of the
body, energy & mind. The wing chun formula is taught; however, muscle
strength is not required to obtain striking power. In fact, the use of
muscles to generate power actually slows down a HKB strike and diminishes
the energy transfer. This is because the muscles constrict the tendons,
prohibiting the energy from reaching the point of contact. By first learning
to detach the body, energy and mind, you learn to feel how to transfer the
weight and whip to the point of contact with the utmost efficiency. This is
the path to achieving Hoet Keng.



I'm looking forward to the progression of my training. I realize as I
develop my control and detachment, I will then be able to link the body back
into the whip & throw a technique from any position, regardless of the
time/space/energy or wing chun formula - true formlessness and emptiness.
Life is always about the journey, and not the destination.



Xan Smith



---------------------------------------------------------------------

I must say that I have not trained much in other Wing Chun systems, so I can
not compare them to HKB. However, I have been in several other martial arts.
I must say that HKB is such a different way of generating power than other
martial art systems. In all other systems I have been in, the way to
generate power is often the boxer's way, in that you use the entire body to
generate power. With HKB, you do not need all of that movement in order to
create power. This allows you to strike much more efficiently and really,
much quicker. The trick, however, is getting used to such a different
system. I am still getting used to such a different way of thinking that
comes with training in HKB. I am still getting used to getting the whipping
motion correctly and to avoid the use of the entire body for power. But,
this is something just comes with time and effort.



I discovered that HKB is far different to any other martial art I have
practiced. We have discussed the issue of power generation, however there is
way more than that. The footwork gives us the balance between mobility and
stability. In other arts, a stance may give you great mobility or give you a
strong, stable stance, but they are never put together. It is always one or
the other. At first the stance we use looks as if it would never work, yet
when we practice we find that it is a remarkably efficient way to move. In
turn, that is exactly what makes HKB so great. I have found that HKB
techniques are often more about controlling the opponent rather than
exchanging blows. There is a greater care paid to getting a superior
position and taking away the opponent's energy, thus preventing him from
even fighting back.



This goes back to a military mind set. To win a war, one must control the
field and disrupt an enemy's movement. The basic formula is even different
from other arts. Many arts do not think about the value of the structure of
the body. This leaves a person off balance or in a position where they can
not respond quickly. Most significant, is that the HKB structure allows us
to fight with great energy, but use little physical strength. Arts such as
modern MMA can often place too much emphasis on muscle. I have heard people
say, "Oh that guy is stronger. So he will win. The bigger, stronger fighter
always wins and that is just how it is." But that is not true. Through the
HKB structure, our physical strength is not needed. There is so much to this
HKB system, I am sure there are areas I have not even thought of yet, but
right now I am making sure I understand the basics of the system.



Robert Whittaker



-------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the most important difference between HKB wing chun and the other
schools is the focus on detachment, detachment in the physical, mental and
spiritual areas. In the physical area you are able to generate power through
a relaxed whipping action separate from the rest of the body, as opposed to
generating power from the entire body structure as in the other arts. In the
mental area you must become detached from the sense of self in order to see
the reality of every situation clearly. In the spiritual sense you must
detach yourself from the limited physical vs. spiritual view of life and see
that in the end you are really a spiritual being that is one with the
greater spirit that created all of us.



With Respect, Gary Ray from Meng's Martial Arts of Cincinnati.



----------------------------------------------------------------

The HKB Experience



As I signed on as a todai of Sifu Lambert at a time when the school was
transitioning from Hung Fa Yi to Hek Ki Boen , I have had very limited
exposure to other Wing Chun systems first hand. We have discussed the
conceptual differences between the Ip Man, Hung Fa Yi, and Hek Ki Boen Siu
Nim Tau exercises in each system, and most of my understanding of the
idiosyncrasies comes from those discussions.



My personal experience thus far with HKB has been quite startling in the
amount of power and the efficiency of its usage within the system. With
correct application, the smallest of movements can produce incredible
amounts of power and forward energy.



I have not yet been able to achieve the whipping motion required to fully
appreciate the extent of HKB's power first hand. But even in the basic
movements, and learning the basic mechanics of the forms, I can easily
recognize a striking difference between the HKB system and other martial
arts methods - recognizable because of the level of difficulty I find in
'detaching' and training my limbs to relax, which seems somehow
counterintuitive to my body.



Generation of Power

Again, with somewhat limited exposure to the system, my understanding at
this point is that the generation of power in the HKB system comes from
visualizing your limbs as sort of wrecking balls - long, fluid chains with
heavy weights at the ends of each; along with honing the ability to turn
your energy on and off and knowing when to do so to produce the explosive
power that makes HKB so effective. HKB's way of conserving your power until
the precise moment during each movement that it is needed and truly
developing economy of motion with each breath and each movement.



Becky Mason
progress.gif
 

Aaron McKillip

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
The Uniqueness of Hek Ki Boen



In my opinion, Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun (HKB) has many qualities that make it
unique among other martial arts and Wing Chun systems. Being effective
through efficiency/economy of motion and use of energy are all strived for
and talked about in other martial art systems, but the methodology and
philosophy is something that I have not heard of from other martial art
practitioners.



Concerning the efficiency, it seems some practitioners of fighting arts are
under the misconception that efficiency is gained through the muscle memory
attained by countless hours of drilling; the thinking being that if you are
used to doing something as second nature, this equals efficiency. Of
course drilling is important, but it seems to me HKB takes it to another
level with the concept of "de-linking", related to the Chan concept of
detachment. No fighter wants to attach themselves to a particular moment in
time and space, and HKB takes this further by proposing that you do not want
any attachment to energy in the body other than the energy that is generated
in the extremity that is striking during the moment of impact; not too long
before nor after. So you must de-link you hands, feet, fingertips or toes
from the rest of your body. Many martial arts promote using your whole body
to generate power; all the while never fully RELEASING it, while HKB
promotes the ability of using the individual parts of the body independently
to generate that same amount of power, then RELEASING all of it in the
execution of a technique.



Another concept that stands out for me is the fact that there are no
defensive techniques. In this case, "the best offense AND defense is a good
offense". Again this seems to me to go back to the Chan philosophy that
deals with living in reality. When someone attacks you, they are attempting
to impose their reality on to you by causing chaos. In my understanding,
HKB purports that if you take any kind of defensive posture, you are
accepting that reality. In order to restore harmony, you must assert your
reality. Hung Fa Yi had a similar concept. One example was four-gate
"blocking". Where a block is used to prevent a strike from reaching its
target by using a limb as a shield; these techniques were not blocks, as the
techniques were used to meet the striking limb with a strike; so you were
engaged in limb destruction. You could follow up this technique with a
strike or strike with your other hand simultaneously. In HKB techniques
like Tun Jiu, Tan Jiu, Im Jiu, Yang Jiu, actually go through the attacker's
offense in order to strike a vital area, imposing your reality on to the
attacker that you are neither a victim nor defender.



Paul Mason

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



When I first began learning Shaolin Kung-fu, we were studying the Hung Fa Yi
(HFY) Wing Chun (WC) system. Based upon my understanding, the HFY system
appeared to be built around the structure of the human body, such as
properly aligning the skeleton to allow for the correct usage of muscles in
a way to get the most from human mechanics. Since this was my first system,
I was very much focused on foundation level material such as learning the WC
formula, the 5 lines, the 10 points, footwork, kicks, punches, and the
accompanying forms that demonstrate various techniques and keep one healthy.
As well, I learned about the concepts of efficiency. As we have transitioned
to learning about HKB and being able to apply HKB skill, I have been able to
notice some differences that are physical and others mental. From the
physical perspective the formula is maintained, but the structure is not as
rigid due to using/releasing energy in place of the power generated from the
speed and strength of the muscles. As for the mental perspective, it is
important to be detached and finding emptiness. I view being detached as not
identifying oneself with style, also being able to flow and adapt to
situations without being repetitively predictable. I view emptiness as
finding that place inside yourself where you can never be mentally bothered
or shaken; you don't think back and forth, you only do. I could be wrong on
these ideas of mine, but with time my understanding will improve. As well,
being a newer student at the time, I maybe was not able to grasp or was not
introduced to more of the philosophical thinking involved with HFY.

When it comes to training, I am able to compare both the HFY and HKB "Little
Ideas". Both are good teachers of time and space. Both demonstrate
techniques within the two systems. Both allow the student to express the
techniques while applying the formula. However, the "Little Idea" in HKB
seems to be better at representing real combat situations and responses.
The HFY "Little Idea" seems to also demonstrate some real combat situations
and responses, but I feel it more so helped me gain an understanding of how
the perform the techniques along with finding the reference points of time
and space. Also, the HKB "Little Idea" allows me to work on turning the
energy on and off as I move from one technique to the. A significant
difference is that I have not seen a Saam Chin Po for HFY. Or at least the
intent was not properly conveyed. I was thinking about the HFY form where
you make a fist and flex until you arms tremble, then pull them back to a
crossed position and thrust downward, that's a little bit similar. But Saam
Chin Po is unique. It is a great teacher, and it forces one to be cognizant
of them-self and know how they are moving, which muscles are tensed or
relaxed and so forth. The Saam Chin also helps me apply the principal of
detachment because in order to develop the skill I must learn to exercise
the physical property of detachment which means separating the linking of
muscles and allowing them act independently being detached individuals'
themselves. These are some of my thoughts on the HKB training compared to my
previous martial arts training with Meng's. I must say there is a lot going
on with training, new thinking, new skills, and sometimes the message is
challenging to convey. I hope my depth of understanding grows and that my
skill grows too, and any correction I need will come. Thank you.



Mitchell Binford

------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I understand correctly in the world of physics there is an
equation/formula to producing energy. The concept of body unity is also
impressed in the practice of modern day Wing Chun, in which the connection
of all major muscle groups along with joints and bone are aligned to deliver
the body's maximum power potential. This concept along with the formula of
mass/speed is not emphasized in HKB. But quite the opposite is impressed
upon the students of HKB in order to develop the proper energy for its
unique and explosive power. With relaxation and letting go, without using
one's own strength joined with muscle or grounded in body unity this
"engine" is developed. In the idea of letting go, it surpasses the physical
and invades into the mental and spiritual areas of a person's psyche. It
teaches me as a person that there are things I cannot control in life, one
being circumstances about me. People's tongue, actions, and attitudes are
not my responsibility and therefore I can release them back to their
originator and be free of all their negative attachment. Sometimes we as
human's are concerned whether we measure up to another man's standards or
spirituality, but through the idea of detachment I can free myself from the
snares and bondages that religion (man made) offers and be a true spiritual
being in touch with God and all that exist around me, including myself. So
the idea of relax, let go and just be is so unique to HKB that this idea has
become my life's motto. It doesn't interfere with my faith/belief, but
enhances. On the physical level I have been able to keep myself from injury
and began to see a change in my body and my approach to training. It does
not take away that one must still work hard and sweat in order to free
himself of his attachments and become detached. It means that in order to
get the "engine operating the proper way" you have to let go of all those
things that upset you, or hold you back, whether it be using muscle to try
to obtain the power, or down to a negative attitude. So the concept in
motion for me is to relax the muscle, release loosely but have a shape, move
with intent and explode the energy on a focused point not have aimless
movement.



Thank You,

Ray Crawford



HKB Wing Chun is the original Wing Chun containing the most complete
picture. Through historical evidence and research, HKB has been proven to be
a living artifact of the Southern Shaolin Temple. The Chan philosophy
permeates the entire system. Every element at this point has a deep
philosophical meaning.

The training method is very clear. The student has a clear objective. Each
training method logically connects to the particular skill. Each skill is
directly connected to the reality of combat. The approach to energy and the
releasing of power sets the HKB Wing Chun system apart. Other Wing Chun
systems work to generate power while HKB releases the power. The first
concepts in other Wing Chun systems work hard to teach the student to
connect the body and the breath while HKB teaches to separate the body and
the breath. HKB approach allows the student to use short range power almost
immediately while other systems teach more of a pushing power.

Chango Noaks
progress.gif
 

Aaron McKillip

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
HKB is unique to start. You have to relearn how to take steps, forwards,
backwards and sideways. You will get a great work out and sore muscles from
learning new ways to punch and strike while you are supposed to be relaxed.
Your physical shape will begin to take shape and fitness develops as you
perform training. The people you train with will become friends as you
sweat and punch each other. The personal improvement in physical energy
increases along with your striking power and strong arms, you reaction sped
increases. Your hands will begin to shake doing form training. The system
and methods begin to transform you into a highly intelligent fighting
machine. Add the depth of knowledge that is pasted on as wisdoms help you
to reach new paradigms in thinking.

Mark Gerhard
 

Aaron McKillip

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
Why, are you afraid that everyone might believe what I and the other HKB members are saying? Are you afraid the real truth will shine through, rather than all the trash talking the Haters are doing? All that really matters anyway is the hands on training. All you guys are hung up on the lineage and where it came from. Why? What is important is the art itself. Stop complainig and start training!

Aaron M.
 

wtxs

Brown Belt
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
479
Reaction score
46
Why, are you afraid that everyone might believe what I and the other HKB members are saying? Are you afraid the real truth will shine through, rather than all the trash talking the Haters are doing? All that really matters anyway is the hands on training. All you guys are hung up on the lineage and where it came from. Why? What is important is the art itself. Stop complainig and start training!

Aaron M.

The problem with public forum is that any thing you have to say will be put under the microscope.

That being said, here are my .02. I admire you loyalty ... but beware of blind devotion, common sense always prevail.

Of all you have posted about HKB WC, the only uniqueness is that it try to stay true to the Wing Chun concepts and principles as should be, so we can pass on the effective methods to our future generation.

If any one here is hung up on their WC lineage and get all pis-sied would be ... :tantrum:

However you are right that we should all be more tolerant, but just keep in mind one can only tolerate so much.

Now we ALLl needed to SHUT DA F*** UP and get back to training.:whip1::whip1::whip1:
 
OP
S

sgerhardt45

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Why, are you afraid that everyone might believe what I and the other HKB members are saying? Are you afraid the real truth will shine through, rather than all the trash talking the Haters are doing? All that really matters anyway is the hands on training. All you guys are hung up on the lineage and where it came from. Why? What is important is the art itself. Stop complainig and start training!

Aaron M.

Actually, as I'm sure you classify me as one of those "Haters"
- Everything I've stated from me comes from personal experience with Moy Yat and Benny's dealings
- I've got a published newspaper article that the members here were kind enough to translate on this very thread
- I've stated hard evidence from Lin's past websites and teachers that counter Lin's current claims.

You have countered with: a bunch of testimonials and whining.

Looks like the truth is already shining through :ultracool
 

Tensei85

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
1,097
Reaction score
29
Location
Michigan
HKB is unique to start. You have to relearn how to take steps, forwards,
backwards and sideways. You will get a great work out and sore muscles from
learning new ways to punch and strike while you are supposed to be relaxed.
Your physical shape will begin to take shape and fitness develops as you
perform training. The people you train with will become friends as you
sweat and punch each other. The personal improvement in physical energy
increases along with your striking power and strong arms, you reaction sped
increases. Your hands will begin to shake doing form training. The system
and methods begin to transform you into a highly intelligent fighting
machine. Add the depth of knowledge that is pasted on as wisdoms help you
to reach new paradigms in thinking.

Mark Gerhard


Is this unique to HKB? Haha, I thought it was called training... hmm, guess I was wrong all along.
 

Tensei85

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
1,097
Reaction score
29
Location
Michigan
He stated he was at the "First Two Seminars". He was not. He was at the First meeting and presentation. This was before the first 2 siminars. He did not say that. He said "I was there for the 1st Black Flag Wing Chun seminar at the Wing Chun Museum as well as the 2nd."
Learn to read!
Besides the question was for Zac not you.

P.S. Why don't you sign your real name to your posts? I know your name is not Steve. Not with the info you gave me. More likely that your real name is Anthony.


Haha, kinda funny then Aaron, I paid for it as a seminar fee, so its not a seminar? than can I get my seminar fee's back? As it was only two meetings that discussed HKB in a seminar format. Interesting btw you were at neither, so you wouldn't have seen me there.

As you have only recently joined the picture, but are already speaking as an authority, but more power to you.

Enjoy what your doing but don't push what you say as concrete evidence to others, in fact it is only "OPINIONS" nothing else.
 

Tensei85

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
1,097
Reaction score
29
Location
Michigan
Zac,

I remembered a conversation you had on another forum with GM Lin on 7/19/09 about Saam Chian Po (Saam Jin Bou).

Your question was this:
"What is the concepts that are developed through the practice of the SBJ? Is it more based on body mechanics and energetics? Or does it define basic concepts similar to SNT (SLT) in most Wing Chun systems?"

We talked about all of this in the 1st Seminar on 5/16/09. What's more is we all learned the SCP in the 1st Seminar. So you should have no reason to ask this question on 7/19/09. This question clearly shows you have never seen or done the Saam Chian Po form. You didn't even know if there is any difference between SNT and SCP. Plus you called it Saam Bo Jin which is from another artform.
In your post, it did not look like Master Lin had any idea who you were or had ever met you. Here is the conversation:
http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/index.php/topic,263.0.html

As a matter of fact GM Lin had to ask you this question:
"May I also ask to introduce yourself, such as school, lineage, style/system, etc?"

To which you replied:
"As far as lineage I was a student of Master Benny Meng, just train Wing Chun on the side now a days. And once in a while a few workshops here and there."

As far as I know you were a student of Robert Hannon, NOT Master Benny Meng. Master Meng was your Sigung, not your Sifu.

Also I checked around. Not only did I not see you at either of the Seminars, but nobody else saw you there either. So why did you say you were there?

Aaron M.

Nah, the 1st two they demonstrated SCP but not instructed, thus my question & ya misunderstandings, limitations in knowledge whatever you wanna chalk it up to. Why so defensive? Just questions, if you wanna see alterior motives that's on you.

Dude, if you have questions on anything just ask Master Meng, as I remember you were a student of Dac Lam not Master Meng either but are training HKB from the VTM, claim Master Meng as your Instructor! I trained Hung Fa Yi from Master Meng, trained Ip Man from Sifu Hannon that is not new information... so what?... any other opinions or questions, maybe a few misunderstanding in between? lol, anything at all?
 

Tensei85

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
1,097
Reaction score
29
Location
Michigan
P.S. I'm glad you guys are amazed at HKB & are enjoying the training, awesome more power to you, I hope you guys develop amazing skill at it but everything that is released to the public should be questioned & even scrutinized, Master Meng taught me this btw. Including HFY for that much, I don't think anything should be taken for granted, believed because someone told you so.

You listed references to the 5 Flags, but where is the research that equates the Black Flag to HKB Eng Chun & the Red Flag to Hung Fa Yi, is this oral history or is there documented evidence for this? Thus my question to begin with, with which you sidetracked nicely! And one last question why is that the history G.M. Lin shared only contained info on the Red Flag & Black Flag with which they couldn't correlate the other flags to anything else? Is there new information on this or is it still pretty much the same?

Thanks for your time & efforts, best of luck with your responsibilities at the VTM.
 
Last edited:
Top