Help- Translation needed!

sgerhardt45

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Hi everbody.

One of my Sehings from Hong Kong sent me an article from the chinese news express, he said it had something to do with the yip man movie. I tried using google translator, but it didn't make much sense. Can anyone here translate this?

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关於咏春拳的一些看法--驳居心叵测之徒 

  (中国新闻快讯) 近日电影叶问与咏春拳的放映令人们对中国文化再起热潮,各种评论纷至,有位山东籍的赵元先生,报社投稿,发表了一篇令人深思的文章。

   赵先生陈述如下:“在看完电影《叶问》后,其儿子在美国网路上看到一位自称教授咏春拳的美国华人,竟胡言乱语称黑旗会与少林寺咏春拳有关。这实在是对中国历史和武林野史不认识,不了解或别有用心的鼠辈。

   我原籍山东,我祖父母一家全死在黑旗会土匪之乱。当年日本侵略我东三省,,五旗会是山东一带的响马贼,五旗会中,尤以黑旗会最令人发指,盖因该会实为汉奸,帮日本人杀害中国民众与军人,这在中国近代史上是有案可稽的。

中国武术在国外很受欢迎,但是有一些居心不良的骗子在国外竟敢篡改历史,称这帮五旗会土匪为反清复明的地下组织,实在是最大的谎言。黑旗会的土匪如其名---心很黑:替日本鬼子杀害无数中国同胞。现在,我竟在网上看到这样一位认贼作父的美国华人混蛋在胡言乱语,其所作所为实在是令每个中国人忍无可忍,这与日本人否认南京大屠杀有何分别?是对我中国人的最大侮辱。这是咱们中国人的无知,还是恶梦不散?我们中国人不能麻木了,站起来戳穿汉奸嘴脸,捍卫武林尊严!

讀者 主者赵元

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Thank you so much for any help.
 

coffeerox

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Some views on Wing Chun - Refuting the ulterior motive of the believers

(China News) The recent film screening of Wing Chun Ip Man has renewed enthusiasm for Chinese culture and all kinds of comments divergent to that. There was a native of Shandong Mr. Zhao Yuan, newspaper contributor, who published a thought-provoking article.

Mr. Zhao stated as follows: "In watching the movie" Ip Man "after his son to see the network in the United States claim to teach Wing Chun, a Chinese American, actually nonsense that Black Flag and Shaolin Wing Chun are related. (note from me, he may be referring to Black Flag Wing Chun, google it) This is unofficial Chinese history and martial arts that they do not know, understand or have ulterior motives.

I am native of Shandong, my grandparents all died in the Black Flags, a bandit rebellion if you will. The Japanese invasion of Manchuria, five flags will ring around the Horse Thief, Shandong, five flags will be in, especially black flag will be the most heinous, Gein was the real traitor would be to help the Japanese killing Chinese people and soldiers, This modern Chinese history is well documented.

Chinese martial arts are very popular abroad, but there are some ill-intentioned liars who dare tamper with history in foreign countries. Black Flags will be the bandits to its name --- their heart is black: for many Chinese compatriots killed by Japanese devils. Now, I see on the Internet, a Renzeizuofu Chinese bastard who speaks nonsense from the United States, its behavior is that every Chinese was the last straw, which the Japanese deny Nanjing Massacre What is the difference? For me this is the greatest insult to the Chinese people. Is it Chinese people's ignorance, or a ghost from a nightmare? We Chinese can not numb, we stand up and expose traitors, feature our martial arts and defend our dignity!
 

vtchisel

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Mr. Zhao stated as follows: "In watching the movie" Ip Man "after his son to see the network in the United States claim to teach Wing Chun, a Chinese American, actually nonsense that Black Flag and Shaolin Wing Chun are related. (note from me, he may be referring to Black Flag Wing Chun, google it) This is unofficial Chinese history and martial arts that they do not know, understand or have ulterior motives.

I am native of Shandong, my grandparents all died in the Black Flags, a bandit rebellion if you will. The Japanese invasion of Manchuria, five flags will ring around the Horse Thief, Shandong, five flags will be in, especially black flag will be the most heinous, Gein was the real traitor would be to help the Japanese killing Chinese people and soldiers, This modern Chinese history is well documented.

Chinese martial arts are very popular abroad, but there are some ill-intentioned liars who dare tamper with history in foreign countries. Black Flags will be the bandits to its name --- their heart is black: for many Chinese compatriots killed by Japanese devils. Now, I see on the Internet, a Renzeizuofu Chinese bastard who speaks nonsense from the United States, its behavior is that every Chinese was the last straw, which the Japanese deny Nanjing Massacre What is the difference? For me this is the greatest insult to the Chinese people. Is it Chinese people's ignorance, or a ghost from a nightmare? We Chinese can not numb, we stand up and expose traitors, feature our martial arts and defend our dignity!

It’s good that Ip Man is recognized for bringing wing chun to the world. I saw the Ip Man movie and don't know if all the accounts are real. In other accounts in Wing Chun I don’t think it’s good as Mr Zhao from China points out. I think Mr. Zhao is talking about the Chinese American black flag Kenneth Lin from Virginia or Benny Meng from Ohio.
I thinks it’s a real tragedy in what he expresses about how relatively compared black flag is to the Nanjing massacre. I know of the black flag stories from their website but it’s only been from their inconsistent point of view. I seen 3 different stories from black flag. The first story was like modified Malaysia wing chun from Vikoga. Then the second change it looked like praying mantis then the third change is rooted in the black flag story the VTM is promoting. The web site also stated that it was from VTM research about the 5 flags. I feel angry for Mr Zhao because what being promoted is not real and is an insult to Mr Zhao's family and the 1.1 billion Chinese people in China. This black flag wing chun group is very suspicion.
 
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sgerhardt45

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Thank you very much for the translation. At the rate I'm going I won't be able to learn chinese until after i retire :)

I don't know anything about the black flag except what's on their website. Looking at it, are they related or intermingled to the Yip Man family? Didn't Yuen Kay San's brother go teach in Vietnam?
 

Tensei85

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I read this article previous to this, there are a few others on Chinese websites in similar format as well.

I've had some experiences with the Black Flag Wing Chun or Hek Ki Boen (Fujian) Yong Chun. I was there for the 1st Black Flag Wing Chun seminar at the Wing Chun Museum as well as the 2nd.

It was an interesting system to say the least, is it what it claims to be however? Haha, I'm at a lost as well. There are several different histories being thrown around on Chinese websites some are stating that Black Flag is related to rebels.

Other's are stating that it's a super cool assassin type organization during the reigns of the Qing dynasty with the sole intent of assassinating Qing officials so their system was designed to meet up to this challenge while most other were not.

That is why it's best not to delve too much into Wing Chun history before the 1850's or if you do than just make sure your aware that it may or may NOT be factual, :too much propaganda & sales pitches not enough evidence to validate anything being legit".

So I take oral histories with a grain of salt to say the least regardless of dna or code modifiers or shaolin seals haha or a purple dinosaur stating he knows what was going on in the 1600's when all of this was being formatted. (Not referring to an actual person, just a joke)

But I feel the system itself is truly unique and has an interesting flare, I also seen the Saam Jin Bou which was quite similar to other Nan Mou Seut(Nan Wushu) system with the same form but was also a bit different in a few regards, but different variations are quite common even amongst this 1 form.

But I'm definitely not one to comment on this system, it seems if you have more interests you should contact Sifu Lin Xiang Fuk directly.

Best regards.
 

Tensei85

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Here's some info on the Black Flag or atleast the Black Flag that most non-black flag people are perpetrating to be the actual "Black Flag" group and the reason as to why a lot of Chinese practitioners are not thrilled of Black Flag if the same as this coming out to the Wing Chun Community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Yung-fu


I guess as far as flags go there were Yellow, Blue, Green, Red & Black.


And here's an alternate; (Same as VTM & HKB websites)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Flag_Wing_Chun


I'll see if I can dig up the old Chinese articles I read, haha I kind of dismissed them and never read again.
 

vtchisel

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyBn7Laic8

This article is posted on youtube. It's getting very interesting with the comments posted on youtube about Sergio. Check it out. Does the black flag eng chun story assault and insult the 1.1 billion Chinese people of China and the wing chun community?
I heard Kenneth Lin say black flag and black bandana are the same, but that’s unheard of in Chinese history. Like I said black flag wing chun is very suspicious and inconsistant.
 

Aaron McKillip

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Hope this helps clear up some confusion.
Aaron McKillip



Official beginning of the VTM Project was back in 1993



By 1995, the Ground Breaking was complete and the Organizing Committee was
formed. Grand Masters Moy Yat, Ip Chun, and Ip Ching were present at the
Ground Breaking Event.



For the next 3 years, the focus of the VTM was on the Ip Man lineage of Wing
Chun. We investigated the Ip Man lineage with Grand Masters Moy Yat, Ip
Chun, Ip Chung, Tsui Shong Tin, Ho Kam Ming, Mak Po, Leung Shun, William
Cheung, and many other Sifu in the 2nd Generation from Ip Man.



By 1998, the VTM had the official Grand Opening, and began to investigate
the non-Hong Kong branches of Wing Chun. When China changed policies and
opened their doors in the 1980s, information on Wing Chun in China started
to trickle into the West. We came into contact with many lineages outside
the Ip Man (Hong Kong) lineage. Therefore, the VTM created a second
classification of Wing Chun: Gwongdong Wing Chun (or Wing Chun from the
Canton Province). Within the Canton Province, there are many lineages,
primarily centered around the city of Fatsaan (Foshan in Mandarin). Lineages
from Canton province include: Yuen Kay-San, Pan Nam, Chan Wah Shun / Chan
Yiu Min, Mai Gei Wong, Cheung Bo, Gulao, and others. A few of Ip Man's
students from his time in China were teaching, with a different expression
of the system compared to his Hong Kong students. The VTM interacted with
many of these lineages in person through numerous trips to Hong Kong and
China. During the process of research with the mainland lineages, we came
across lineages which the VTM today classifies as Shaolin Wing Chun.



There are two systems that the VTM classifies as Shaolin Wing Chun: Hung Fa
Yi Wing Chun Paai and Hek Ki Boen Wing Chun Paai. These two systems contain
the original three treasures of Shaolin, which are: Chan Buddhism,
Health/Qigong, and Combat/Self-Defense/Martial Art skills. Both lineage are
relatively unknown to the wider public due to their ties to Chinese secret
societies in the past, with customs dating back to the founding of the Hung
Mun during the Ming/Qing struggles during the 1600s. The oral traditions in
both lineages do not follow the legends of a nun teaching a young girl by
the name of Yim Wing Chun. Their cultures and traditions follow the
movements of the ancient secret societies' efforts to overthrow the Qing
Dynasty. The VTM labels these lineages as Shaolin Wing Chun because they
still maintain a focus on the three treasures of Shaolin, while the system
from Hong Kong and Canton researched to date are based on the teachings and
preferences of individually great martial artists. Both lineages also
maintain a related schema of Heaven/Earth/Human symbolism and are centered
on the core principle of Time/Space/Energy.



In modern times, the secret society tradition of blood oaths and enforced
secrecy, both arts have begun to come out to the public and reveal the depth
and breadth of their treasures. The VTM has focused on the HFY lineage since
1999 and has begun research into the HKB lineage since 2008.



With the journeys through the Hong Kong Wing Chun, Canton Wing Chun, and now
Shaolin Wing Chun, I believe the VTM has run the gauntlet of Wing Chun's
evolution. It is analogous to going through the layers of soil to discover
the growth and history of an ancient civilization:

* The top layers are the most recent evolution of Wing Chun,
represented by the Hong Kong lineages to the present day
* The middle layers are the middle-distant evolutions of Wing Chun,
represented by the Canton lineages and how they've evolved to the modern day
* The bottom layers are the earliest forms of Wing Chun, represented
by the Shaolin Wing Chun lineages, giving insight into the proto-Wing Chun,
the melting pot of Southern Shaolin Kung Fu at the time of the Ming/Qing
struggle for control of China.



The classification terms the VTM uses (Hong Kong, Canton, Shaolin) were
created to define and organize research. This is not to say the Ip Man
lineage should now be referred to exclusively as Hong Kong Wing Chun, or
that Shaolin Wing Chun is a new designation for either the HFY or HKB
lineages. Rather, these terms should be understood as specific monikers used
internally to the VTM. As these great lineages continue to open up and share
more information, gain adherents, and expand their connection into the
martial arts community, it can sometimes be overwhelming or confusing when
getting too technically focused without a general education first. One of
the goals of the VTM is to provide this general education and foundation and
share it to the general martial arts community, but the final conclusion is
always in the hands of the individual martial artists. Furthermore, the VTM
has always maintained a policy of direct, personal, face-to-face interaction
in all research - and we recommend that you gain your own experience before
coming to any hard conclusions.



Sometimes, as human beings, we will arrive at the wrong conclusion based on
lack of experience. And, unfortunately, there will also be those with their
own personal, selfish agendas regardless of the big picture to Wing Chun's
past, present, and future who intentionally share misinformation to further
their agenda. For example, when the VTM introduced HFY to the public, there
were those within the Wing Chun martial arts community who felt it necessary
to attack and attempt to discredit both the VTM and the HFY lineage by
trying to associate the HFY secret society heritage with modern-day Triad
gangsters. The danger of this mindset or attitude is that people with this
focus misrepresent or "cherry-pick" facts to support an selfish agenda. For
example, the general term for Chinese gangsters today is 'Triad.' But
today's Triads are criminal organizations that are very far removed from the
origins in the 1600s, which were mutual-aid societies developed during a
war-torn country to preserve Chinese culture against the foreign Manchu
invasion. This theme seems to be repeating itself, with anonymous people
properly from the same group using fictional articles to attempt to connect
the HKB lineage to criminal elements of the resend past who so happen to use
the term 'Black Flag.' There might have been a bandit organization the early
20th century in the Sandung province that used the name of 'Black Flag',
after Japanese invasion of china during 1930-40 (WWII). Also the Manchu army
within the Qing Dynasty was also organized by flag, which included a 'Black
Flag' division. The Manchurian 8 flag system around late 1870, their 'Black
Flag' is known as black flag 7 stars, since they put 7 star and character of
"Ling" (Command)on the flag. So simply attempting to connect one 'black
flag' with another requires extensive investigation into history. The HKB
oral history goes back to the burning of the Southern Shaolin Temple in the
1600s. According to their oral tradition, there were 5 secret societies that
were formed with the express purpose of fighting to overthrow the Qing
Dynasty. Each flag was sent to a different area of China. For example, the
Red Flag went to Canton while the Black Flag - the 1st lodge and most
important - stayed in the Fukien area, around the ruins of the Southern
Shaolin Temple. So, according to research to date, this Fukien-based Black
Flag group had nothing to do with either the Sandung or Manchu Black Flag
organizations. Without being informed on Chinese History, someone with ill
intent can easily attempt to tarnish a lineage's rightful history and
traditions.

Finally, it is the VTM's express wish and hope that each member of every
lineage of Wing Chun continues to preserve their lineage: the unique
knowledge, skill, training methods, and culture to the best of their ability
while also maintaining an open mind. For example, if there were three
classifications and a practitioner only experiences one specific variation
of one classification, it is very challenging to see the overall
relationship between the many lineages and appreciate the beauty, breadth,
and depth of Wisdom contained within the whole of the Wing Chun martial arts
family. The hallmark of Shaolin is direct experience - the VTM urges all
honest Wing Chun practitioners to gain direct experience with the many
lineages of Wing Chun to gain a deeper appreciation for their own lineage as
well as a broader understanding of the Wing Chun family and Wing Chun's
evolution.





Sincerely,

Benny Meng, Curator

Ving Tsun Museum

August 2010
 

Tensei85

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Im Curious what new research has the VTM uncovered on HKB Eng Chun that can be released to the public?

In regards you state that the Black Flag was the 1st lodge, most important & stayed in Fukien. Is this just oral history, or is there evidence that validates this claim?

These two systems contain
the original three treasures of Shaolin, which are: Chan Buddhism,
Health/Qigong, and Combat/Self-Defense/Martial Art skills

This is more of a blanket statement; as in Self Defense/Combat/Martial Arts skills are adherent to many Martial System as are the philosophy of Chan, & Qigong. Each system has a staple on Health(Even non CMA), so what defines these as Shaolin compared to the others that contain each of these but is not based onthe VTM's research?

I think these points would be great to elaborate on, if possible.

VTM, Thank you for your time & continued research into Wing Chun history.
 

Aaron McKillip

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First things first. This is in response to the article above that seems to be on a lot of forums out there right now. I hope this helps to clerify some things about some of the claims being made about Black Flag.


Aaron M.
 
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sgerhardt45

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Hello,

Recently, Aaron and I had some discussion on another forum (vt4um) however, the content was not to the liking of the owner and he has since shut down the forum to any talk he does not approve of. In my mind however, the internet is a place of free speech, and as I feel some of the things discussed are important to the Wing Chun community and this Black Flag idea that the VTM is promoting. I would like to put that conversation here.

By Me:
Aaron,

Speaking of frauds - thanks for bringing up Benny Meng. His "museum" is a joke, and is just a front for his mengs martial arts curriculum of stolen techniques and knowledge. You only have to look at his relationship with my Sigung, Moy Yat, to see the truth.

The list of people he's screwed over include, Moy Yat, William Chueng, Robert Chu, Andreas Hoffman and latest was Garrett Gee.

I have no ill will toward Sergio, but Benny is pure garbage. I'm sure it won't be long before he screws over this Lin guy too.

Good luck and I hope you don't get burned like so many others when he jumps ship again.

By Aaron:
Dave,

Hopefully this answers you question a little better.

HKB Eng Chun has everything that Ip Man Wing Chun has and more. It has all the forms, all the concepts and theory that Ip Man WC has.

It has:
-Siu Nihm Tauh
-Chahm Kiuh
-Biu Ji
-Muhk Yahn Jong
-Butterfly Swords
-Pole Training
-As well as One and Two Handed Chi Sau
Plus much more. Which each form has it's purpose.

What is different is that HKB has:

-Heaven/Human/Earth
-Time/Space/Energy
-The Three Shaolin Treasures
-The WC Formula --- Which when this is taught to the student and they then teach it to their student. Using this Formula, over time the system will not change. They cannot follow their own personal views on where they think the hand/arm/body should be in relation to the movement. They have to follow the formula. This is why the system is still intact in it's original form since about 300 years ago.
-Huat Keng (Faat Jing) training
-Chi Gong training

I have trained in Ip Man WC. Every single thing I have learned in Ip Man WC is in HKB Eng Chun.
The biggest difference is in the power. You start off training HKB with a form called Sam Chian Po which develops Huat Keng (Faat Jing). Then once you learn that, you start learning Siu Nihm Tauh. This form is not found in any other WC out there. This is the original information. Imagine taking the hitting power you can use with Ip Man WC and X-ing it by about 10. Do you think you would be happy if you could do that?

A lot of people can express very good power with Ip Man WC. In fact one of my Sihings is very good at it. But when he touched hands with Master Lin he was amazed how easily Master Lin affected his structure! My Sihing has one of the two best structures I have ever seen.
As for what HKB Eng Chun power is like, I have never seen anyone give someone a 6 inch wide bruise that puffs up with fluids 2 inches off of the arm within 3 minutes from hitting them with a Paak Sau, from 3 inches away... until now! By the way this was a motion from left to right inside their arms, not straight out. Not using any body movement. Also the sound of the Paak was so loud, it was as if he hit him from over a foot away! I also have never heard a person move their arms about 1 foot, 3 or 4 times and have it sound like they are swinging a baseball bat... while they are breathing normal and talking!

I am very happy to have the chance to be one of the first students in the U.S. to be able to train this.

Aaron McKillip
 
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sgerhardt45

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By Dave
Hi Aaron,

Just wondering...

If your system contains everything from the Ip Man system, then why did Yip Man leave the other stuff out?
Did he simplify it? Did he leave the (in his opinion) unnessecary things out?

Like to understand the ideas that HKB has over that...
BTW. I'd like to see a family tree from how you see the 'history' of the sytem.


Although I'm not really into the history stuff, more in application, simplicity and efficiency)

"Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mistery and Today is a gift, that's why it's called 'present'. (Kung Fu Panda ;-) )


Also heard about Red Flag What's that?
I'm doing for nearly 20 years, and 'new' stuff keeps coming up...

Hope to keep this discussion running without people taking it up to politics too much

By Aaron:
Hi Dave,

Sorry I took so long to get back with you about this. I wanted to make sure I gave you good info.

"If your system contains everything from the Ip Man system, then why did Yip Man leave the other stuff out?
Did he simplify it? Did he leave the (in his opinion) unnessecary things out?"


Ip Man did not leave the other stuff out. I do not know if he siplified or left out unnessecary parts of what he learned or not.
During the time of the Red Boat Opera Troup. One of the Red Boat Opera performers was a Red Flag Secret Society member. He taught some of the info to a student who was not a Secret Society member. He left out the most important things so he would not violate the Blood Oaths he took to never teach it to anyone. In his situation when someone asked him to teach them. If he refused, it would start to arrouse suspicion as to who he really was. His student then passed it on to another and so on. Til one day Ip Man learned the info and passed it on to his students. During this 300 year period. The information changed even more due to no Formula being learned or passed on which was meant to keep the system from changing over time.

Basically if you were not a Secret Society memeber, you would never have a chance to learn the whole system of WC. It was strictly not taught to the general public, until now!

"BTW. I'd like to see a family tree from how you see the 'history' of the sytem."

Here is a page that has a family tree of Black Flag Eng Chun. As you can see Red Flag goes to the Red Boat Opera then to Public WC. Which is where Ip Man WC is classified.
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html


"Also heard about Red Flag WC What's that?"

It would take me too much time to explain. So here is a link to take you to all the information you need about Red Flag Wing Chun.
http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/hung_fa_yi/articles.php

"I'm doing WC for nearly 20 years, and 'new' stuff keeps coming up..."

There is nothing "new". Red and Black Fag have been in Secret Societies for several hundred years for the purpose of bringing back the Ming Dynasty. As a matter of fact if you even spoke the name of Red Flag WC in China during this period, you would immediately be taken into custody and thrown in jail under suspicion of ties to the Red Flag Secret Society. So they have not been teaching to the public. Mostly out of fear of the Blood Oath they all took, which prevents them from teaching to anyone outside of the Secret Society. The only reason anyone knows anything about them today is because of Master Benny Meng's research into the true origin of Wing Chun. Also Master Lin never had to take the Blood Oath in the Black Flag lineage. I believe that his generation is the first generation that has not had to take any Blood Oaths. Therefore we now have access to learn this great System.

I hope this helps.

Aaron McKillip
 
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sgerhardt45

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By Me:

Aaron,

I understand that you are a young guy trying to stick up for his Sifu, and that is a good quality in a student. But, I think you are missing a lot of information from the past to make good decisions.

I first met Benny Meng years ago in NYC china town back in the 90's, at the time I didn't have much knowledge about him, as far as I knew he was just another member of my kung fu family. However, a few weeks later, I overheard Elizabeth Moy telling GM Moy Yat that Benny Meng was not to be trusted, and that he was a “snake.” Again, at the time I didn't think too much of it as GM Moy still seemed to have trust in Benny Meng. My thinking at the time that maybe Elizabeth Moy just had some personal problem with Benny Meng, and never thought anything of it.

Go forward a few years to the grand opening of the VTM, I was there with about 50 other people in attendance. Unfortunately, though many persons were openly polite to the VTM staff, the general attitude was that the VTM was more of a LIVING ROOM than a museum. A real museum has research, fossils and artifacts, what artifacts did the VTM have? It was a number of articles cut out of magazines (written by Meng himself) plastered on the wall, a few wooden dummy and a couple pair of baat cham do. You could put together a similar “museum” in your own living room for less than $5000US. The only real artifact they had was from the modern day, which GM Moy gifted to them, the Ving Tsun chops that Moy Yat made himself.

***Many people do not know this, but the VTM was actually GM Moy Yat's idea. This is why he was so generous in donating OFFICIAL Ving Tsun Chops, made himself by hand, to the VTM. However, only a few years later, GM Moy sent two of my Sehing to go all way to the VTM to knock down the door and take back the chops. This was because he discovered that Elizabeth was right, that Benny Meng didn't have good character and could no longer be trusted with the VTM project.

Even now, a lot of the different Sifu who were there on opening day and who have visited or given workshops at the VTM over the years have a negative opinion of it. These type of statements are peppered all over the Kungfu Magazine and VTAA forums. Many do not consider the VTM as a real museum, and that the only real VT museum is the Yip Man Tong in China. In addition, I have heard many, many comments that the only reason the VTM still exists is so that Benny Meng can sell certifications and video, as well as using the “museum” status for tax evasion purposes.

Does this really sounds like a legitimate organization to you?

By Aaron:
Steve,

Your personal attack and attachment toward Master Meng will bring bad Karma to you.

Aaron M.
 
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sgerhardt45

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By Me:

Quote---------------------------------------
Your personal attack and attachment toward Master Meng will bring bad Karma to you.
Aaron M.
----------------------------------------------

Aaron,
Karma is a funny thing. Really, what I stated above is not personal attack, but nothing more than common knowledge. It is the result of Benny Meng’s Karma from over the past decade or so. What was it but Karma when GM Moy Yat sent two Sehing to Benny Meng’s Museum/Benny Meng’s Storage Room to take back the chops? Things like that do not happen every day. Do you really think that our Moy Yat family is the only one with problems concerning Benny Meng’s Storage Room/Museum? See below:

From Dave:

Quote--------------------------
Also heard about Red Flag What's that?
-----------------------------------
From Aaron:

Quote------------------------------------------
It would take me too much time to explain. So here is a link to take you to all the information you need about Red Flag Wing Chun.
http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/hung_fa_yi/articles.php
--------------------------------------------

Benny Meng’s term “Red Flag” has been a discussion over at the Kungfu Magazine forums and on the website hfy108.com Here is what the Hung FaYi association has to say:

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19702#post19702

Quote------------------------------------------------------
Greetings to you all,

The World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association would like to thank our members around the world for their hard work and perseverance in continuing the art of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen under Grandmaster Garrett Gee. Our members’ dedication to preserving our system and culture is truly excellent. Our Grandmaster has brought together a diverse Wing Chun family that spans the globe, from Asia to Europe, South America and the USA. This makes our family a worldwide organization with many members and many opportunities to grow and exchange our Kung Fu and individual cultures.

It has come to the attention of the World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association that in the last month there have been a number of rumors circulating on the Kungfu/Qigong Magazine forums and third party websites in reference to the term "Red Flag Wing Chun" being used to reference both TWC and HFY with the intention of 3rd party self promotion. It is not the policy of the WHFYWCKFA to comment on rumors and other people's affairs, but due to the number of recent inquiries we have received on the subject of any “Black Flag/Red Flag” rumor, the WHFYWCKFA would like to address the comments made.

We would like to begin by clarifying that the WHFWCKFA cannot speak for the TWC Association's position on rumors such as the "Black Flag/Red Flag” issue and "5 Flag societies" issue. In investigating this matter, it appears that some websites are using Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun material for personal and business promotion. However, in the Hung Fa Yi Oral history, from our founder Hung Gun Biu, to our current lineage holder, Grandmaster Garrett Gee, our association has not been called, or associated with any rumored "Red Flag society" or "5 Flag society". Since the 1850's, our lineage traces through one society only: the Hung Fa Wui/Red Flower Boxer Society which is documented in official Chinese history.

To any parties genuinely interested in the Chinese history research, public documents from the Chinese government are available to the general public that clearly explain the recent history of the "5 Flag societies" as bandits and their betrayal to the motherland, China.

Observing the evidence present, our association would like to say "Thanks, but no thanks" to any 3rd party web site attempting to link the WHFYWCKFA to any "5 Flag" or "Black Flag/Red Flag" association for business promotion or advertisement. The Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen Paai have always been, and will remain loyal to, the true identity and pure history of Red Flower Boxer Society.

Thank you and good training to all.

- William H.
Executive Director
World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association

----------------------------------------

The evidence points to one thing: Hung Fa Yi is not Red flag and Red Flag doesn't exist.
Then, just a few weeks ago, someone put this out on the Kungfu Magazine forums. It seems that in an effort to make things look like a “Red Flag” Benny Meng changed this statement by a Hung FaYi guy to a “Red Flag” guy:

Original:

Quote------------------------------------------
All,

The annual World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association workshop will take place on March 27th-29th (friday-sunday) 2009 at the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen headquarters in San Francisco, California.

3/27 friday 7-11pm
3/28 saturday 9-6pm (lunch 1-2pm)
3/28 saturday 7-10pm Grandmaster Garrett Gee birthday celebration/dinner
3/29 sunday 9-3pm

Those that are making plans to come from across the United States, internationally, and locally, you can email me with the email address provided below.

Allen Kong
__________________
Director - Hung Fa Kwoons
World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun World Headquarters
219 Monterey Blvd.
San Francisco, California 94131 USA
(415) 589-2898
HungFaYi@aol.com
HungFaKwoon@aol.com
www.HungFaKwoon.com

email/call for all inquiries regarding Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun domestic/international affairs, training programs, and workshops/seminars

World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association Kwoons
http://www.hungfayiireland.com/24html.pdf

-----------------------------

Benny Meng's changes:

Quote-----------------------

All,

The annual World Red Flag Wing Chun Kung Fu Association workshop will take place on March 27th-29th (friday-sunday) 2009 at the Red Flag Wing Chun Kuen headquarters in San Francisco, California.

3/27 friday 7-11pm
3/28 saturday 9-6pm (lunch 1-2pm)
3/28 saturday 7-10pm Garrett Gee birthday celebration/dinner
3/29 sunday 9-3pm

Those that are making plans to come from across the United States, internationally, and locally, you can email me with the email address provided below.

Allen Kong
__________________
Director - Hung Fa Kwoons
World Red Flag Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
Red Flag Wing Chun World Headquarters
219 Monterey Blvd.
San Francisco, California 94131 USA
(415) 589-2898
HungFaYi@aol.com
HungFaKwoon@aol.com
www.HungFaKwoon.com

email/call for all inquiries regarding Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun domestic/international affairs, training programs, and workshops/seminars

World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association Kwoons
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 03:35:02 am by Benny Meng »

------------------------------

As they pointed out, the above is tantamount to the crime of forgery! Where is the Karma in that? Aaron, how can you really believe so strongly what Benny Meng says when all of this evidence is out there?
 
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S

sgerhardt45

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By Dave:

White flag! I surrender....

Please stop the politics, or I will close the subject.

By Me:

Dave,

Sorry for having to air the old history. I know for many of us, it has been done to death. I’ll stop at this point if Aaron is willing to as well.

Trying to get more back to topic, since receiving this article I have received a lot of different private messages, both good and bad, across many different forums about this Black Flag organization, and their USA representative, Kenneth Lin. Quoting Aaron, above:

Quote---------------------------------------------------

What is different is that HKB has:

-Heaven/Human/Earth
-Time/Space/Energy
-The Three Shaolin Treasures
-The WC Formula --- Which when this is taught to the student and they then teach it to their student. Using this Formula, over time the system will not change. They cannot follow their own personal views on where they think the hand/arm/body should be in relation to the movement. They have to follow the formula. This is why the system is still intact in it's original form since about 300 years ago.
-Huat Keng (Faat Jing) training
-Chi Gong training

-------------------------------------------------------------

Looking at the Black Flag website of 2005 (available here:http://web.archive.org/web/20080113130305/www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/main.html ), there is no mention of most of what Aaron wrote above. However, since Benny Meng has produced articles in the last several years about Heaven Human and Earth in Chi Sim Weng Chun and a Ving Tsun Formula including “Time Space and Energy” in Hung Fa Yi Ving Tsun. It is not hard to see that only after Benny Meng's influence and joining to their association did Black Flag add such terms.

In addition, looking at these two youtube videos and related comments:

The evidence seems to point strongly that Black Flag's historical connections are very circumspect and appear only to be documented linking to a group of traitorous bandits.

In addition, as the second video points out, the 2005 website lists Kenneth Lin as a VIKOGA ving tsun teacher under Chung Che Man. VIKOGA ving tsun is the work of Mr. Victor Leow, his lineage is shown here:

http://www.accsoft.com.au/~cheng/pics/wclineage.gif

Looking at the testimony of someone who attended a black flag workshop here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88994

Quote----------------------------------------------------
But I feel the system itself is truly unique and has an interesting flare, I also seen the Saam Jin Bou which was quite similar to other Nan Mou Seut(Nan Wushu) system with the same form but was also a bit different in a few regards, but different variations are quite common even amongst this 1 form.
------------------------------------------------------------

It seems much more likely that Black flag is VIKOGA wing chun mixed with other southern fist *OR* that it is amalaysian wing chun that contains other 5 animal style elements to it and seeing that it was incomplete, Kenneth Lin went on to learn more Wing Chun from Chung Che Man. It seems very likely that Black Flag does not exist as an original shaolin style. (Not saying it’s good or bad as a fighting system, just that their history is incorrect)

Even K. Lin himself said :

http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=831ee6ee00fc7db18d06ead692614d6e&topic=946.0

Quote----------------------------------------
The last word went to Sifu Lin, …clarifying that HKB Wing Chun is not the same as Shaolin Wing Chun, in which HKB Wing Chun should never be called Shaolin Wing Chun.HKB Wing Chun is HKB Wingchun. Last but not least, Sifu Lin also talked about how cross-training other styles, including other lineage of wing chun, would damage the progression of the practitioner achieving the HKB skill.

-----------------------------------------------------

The evidence available and the inconsistencies in Lin's presentation stacks strongly against the credibility of Kenneth Lin and the Black Flag organization.

Then, from their own history:
http://www.blackflagwingchun.com/familytree.html

1. Yelllow Flag – No evidence of it existing
2. Green Flag – No evidence of it existing
3. White Flag – Trying to link to White Crane, white crane comes from a different area and has a genesis before the black flag timeframe. White crane is from in fujian years (1644-1662) . No evidence of white flag existing.
4. Red Flag – No evidence of it existing.
5. Black Fag – Only evidence from Kenneth Lin since 2005.

This means that it is most likely fact: Black Flag wing chun doesn't really exist. Or it is a recent creation.
 
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Tensei85

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@Sgerhardt45,
Ya I would have to say the concept of the flag system is relatively new, having past experience in Hung Fa Yi, as well as Ip Man Wing Chun & others I've never heard of the Flag system representation other than when Black Flag Wing Chun came out, so marketing scheme or newly acquired knowledge that was hidden in secrecy. Haha, I don't have the answers that's why I've come to the conclusion that though history does pique my interest, its really impossible to transmit accurate information when being presented in an oral fashion so in those regards I've pretty much given up on history, legends, lore things of that nature.

But one thing I will say is that when information is being presented to the public no matter from what source or for what purpose its extremely important to present facts that substantiate one's claims. Otherwise its just marketing pure & simple.

That said, it will be interesting to see future bits of information that are released to the public. I still find the subject of HKB Eng Chun interesting, but its still relatively new to the Community so I'm looking forward to see what's to come.

I know a lot of bridges have been burned in the past from various Wing Chun families, but it's a good time to look ahead & forge new bridges. Lose attachment to the topic of newest, best, most advanced haha each of these will only make one lose track of their own progress & hold us back from living up to our potential. So just enjoy training, I'll still try to dig up those articles I read just haven't had much time as of late.
 

Aaron McKillip

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“In the practice of every way of life and every kind of work, there is a state of mind called that of the deviant.” Regrettable is the truth of this statement – more regrettable still, is its relevance in politics! There are those deviants, who, in hopes of rousing fear and fury, shamelessly produce falsehood for public consumption. We are all well aware of this fact; at its mere mention history reminds us of her examples. Those hideous shameful ones! – Without reason and conscience do they slander, from all walks of life do they march, and, unfortunately, we in the martial arts community have yet to rid ourselves of their stench. Regrettable, indeed, is the situation – if only this madness would confine itself to politicians, with its inevitable spree taking place every four years.
However, this is surely mere wishful thinking. In the recent month, multiple media have been circulated across the internet that defile my art and slander my brothers; these deviants, with their fragile arguments, have accused the Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun Pai [HKBECP] system of being associated with traitorous bandits who, they claim, allied themselves with the Japanese during the invasion of Manchuria in 1931 – they even went so far as to claim a relationship between HKBECP and the Nanjing Massacre (1937), with a healthy amount of unpleasant imagery to accent their fear mongering. These are deplorable lies, and shameless attacks; these men are not genuine! They accuse my master of fabricating our entire legend to meet his “ulterior motives”, but these men are the true fabricators! Sooner would they be slaves to their own ulterior motives – the destruction of their competition, the glorification of their name, and the inflation of their wallet – than be masters of themselves, and conduct themselves properly, with civility, respect, and an open mind when questioning whatever inconsistencies they may perceive spring forth from the HKBECP legends.
These slanderers have yet to make any criticism on the actually system of HKBECP; instead, they attack the existential qualities of its origin. They have claimed that we, HKBECP as an organization, have changed our history multiple times for the purpose of propaganda, and yet they show themselves as the true propagandists – propagandists who are naïve to the idea that historical interpretations of century old oral legends might inherently contain certain difficulties. Their ignorance begets their disgraceful behavior – it seems when they cannot attack the art, they will attack the artist – and so they let loose their ad hominem arguments. They have attempted to disgrace my Suhu [Sifu/Master], Lin Xiang Fuk by such lowly tactics; as stated in a YouTube video, posted under the pseudonym of wcwatchdog, “it is not right this Chinese bastard in the United States spread nonsense, hypocrisy and pain.” Wcwatchdog claims to quote this from a Mr. Zhao Yuan, a Chinese citizen who contributed an article to a newspaper.
Furthermore, they seek to discredit the names of two well known researcher and Wing Chun Expert, Sifu Meng and Sifu Sergio; Jbsfan123, who originally posted Mr. Zhao’s article in a prior YouTube video, commented on wcwatchdog’s video, in one of his more civil attacks, stating:

Sergio's inept research methods have finally been exposed as nonsense. He's only in it for the money. The bad seed Benny Meng has been ousted as the Curator of an empty and unwanted museum. Meng's in it for the money. […] Black Flag Wing Chun is a lie, a horrible lie.

The behavior of these slanderers is all too easy behind the guise of an internet avatar, but I write herein under my name – my real name –, and I hope that it is already fully apparent, the unauthentic methods of these slanderers, but let me briefly point them out.
The slanders claim that HKBECP is related to traitors in the 1930’s, this is because the traitors also went under the name of “Black Flag”, but then why not relate us to Liu Yongfu, the Chinese sword for hire, who, with his Black Flag Army, fought against the French in Vietnam during the 1870s and 1880s? Why not HKBECP be associated with this black flag group? – Who, I might add, is more easily discovered through the ‘public documents available’ – This is a valid question, but the answer is obvious – Liu Yongfu was remembered more as a patriot, not a murderous traitor, and so the propaganda wouldn’t have the desired effect. Chinese history is not lacking examples of “black flag” organizations, besides the above mentioned example, there are the Shandong bandits, who Mr. Zhao Yuan would see HKB connected with, there is the Anti-Qing secret society Black Flag, who HKB is connected with, there is Anti-Qing peasant uprising of Song Jingshi, and his Black Flag Army, there was even a black flag within the Qing forces themselves (who used a flag system to organize their military administration), etcetera, etcetera. Even Europe’s history can serve exemplar; as Sifu Sergio was quick to point out, the term “black flag” or “black bandana” is reminiscent of the Fascist Italian Paramilitary organization, the National Security Volunteer Militia, more commonly known as Mussolini’s Blackshirts, who wreaked havoc in Italy from post WWI era to the end of WWII.
In his article, after slandering my Suhu, Mr. Zhao Yuan goes on to state, “His behavior is that every Chinese who died was no different than the Japanese denying the Nanjing Massacre! What is the difference?” This is a fair question, and so I shall answer: The Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun Pai system was brought to Indonesia by Tjia Fun Jiao in 1907, he latter transmitted his teachings to Su Jo [Great Grand Master], The King Yang; who, in turn, had many successors from which my Suhu was taught. Today, in Indonesia, there resides living proof of this; our kung fu family in Indonesia is alive and well – just last March 2010, the HKB members from USA visited Indonesia, and I personally met Tai Sukong [Senior Grandmaster] The Kang Hay and Sukong Tio Tik Kwie, as well as the rest of HKB members down there; there are even pictures online to prove this, and so it is preposterous to conclude my Suhu would have, or could have, fabricated our founding legends. Furthermore, this Mr. Zhao Yuan is not a journalist, he merely contributed a newspaper; I am sorry for whatever suffering his family has had to endure at the hands these Shandong bandits, but that doesn’t make his accusations just. We simply are not related to these bandits, who, as he claims, travelled a great distance from Shandong to Manchuria to aid in the Japanese Invasion of 1931, and who, even more remarkably, traveled a great distance six years later to Nanking, to participate in the rape and murder of their own countrymen (it should be noted that, even though Zhao Yuan states that this is all very well documented in modern Chinese history, I have not been able to find any evidence, with the resources at my disposal, that confirms this relationship between the Japanese and the alleged traitors).
Furthermore, there exists physical evidence that so profoundly correlates with traditional HKB legend that any reasonable mind could perceive the positive relationship, and would inevitably conclude our legend has a lot more credibility than what jbsfan123 would have them believe. Interestingly enough, the evidence in question dates back to the mid 1800’s, and draws itself from a pool of artifacts found throughout Asia. We have such evidence in our possession, but it is not the right time, nor the right place, for its disposal – aquila non capit muscas[3] – surely such pettiness will not elicit truly valuable information, but nevertheless, the information will eventually be released, just in a more appropriate medium; I, in fact, am currently working a book that can certainly serve to elaborate on some of the evidence’s intricacies.
It is regrettable I ever had to consign these words to page, and that we had to dirty our hands with the stench of petty politics; the Hek Ki Boen system is a true jewel, and shouldn’t have to be defended, but it would be foolish to forsake the manure that fertilizes strong trees. HKBECP came to the United States from Indonesia in 2005, and has only recently been introduced to the wider international community; the response of these slanderers is a sad thing, but even diamonds don’t shimmer until they have been dug up, retrieved from their earthy abyss, and are illuminated by the warm light of the sun. And so I hope that in the future we may be received by the warmth and the light of many open minded martial artist. Furthermore, I have known my Suhu for the most productive years of my life – he has been guardian, guide, and father to me, and there is no man on earth less deserving of the slander which he has received from these attacks. This entire farce is characteristically ironic; historical concerns are the most arbitrary means to judge the value of any martial art system – no matter how it got here, it is here regardless – the value of a martial art, therefore, should not be judge by how it was created, but by what it creates in its practitioners. Martial arts are a gate way to the most profound ways of life; they are derived from the most inner authenticies of the human spirit, and the present generation is especially lucky to have such a pure vehicle as the Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun Pai system survive the trials of time, due in no small part to the efforts of our ancestors, and I for one would wish to exercise all my power to see that it survives for infinite generations to come. Thus, to be a Suhu is not to be a mere transmitter of information, but a grower of men – like the gardener he attends to his plants, and by his nourishment their genuine growth within nature is realized, and accelerated. I invite all open minds to experience the growth my Suhu has helped me to achieve.


– Benjamin Blalock

 
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