help: 360 jump, land w knife hand

[lavender]

Hi,
I have a TKD red belt and I'm working on form Pyung Wa. There is a 360 jump from horse stance, land in horse stance with knife hand. It hurts my adductor muscles (groin) when I jump and I haven't managed to finish correctly yet.
How normal is that pain, and what suggestions do you have to improve this jump? Is the pain a matter of weak muscles or not stretching out enough?

I'm also a little scared of this jump. I'm not sure why.

Thoughts? Exercise suggestion?

Thanks

 

[Cyriacus]

Thats one of the stranger techniques ive heard of, but okey dokey. Describe how you jump, specifically. From just experimenting quickly, the easiest (the way i did it on the first go) way to turn in the air is to kick your knee around slightly then pull it back into the position it needs to be in to land in stance. That i cant see being too good for your groin muscles if youre not very flexible.

So generally speaking: Do not jump high at all, and use the jump itself to rotate, rather than trying entirely to rotate after the jump. I found just now that dropping my weight, jumping off at a curve and using a slight twitch of the legs made it fairly easy, but thats only going slightly off the ground. Also, the orientation of your head might be a factor. Assuming its the Jhoon Rhee variant, you need to land with a strike off to the side. This means your head is facing right, turns to your left, then needs to turn back to your right. That part makes things tricky, and i have... little desire to attempt it myself
Second, if its going to cause you pain to do it, get it to within minimal paramaters and let them live with the imperfection. It isnt worth an injury that could incapacitate you for months. Believe me - Ive not had the injury myself, and im glad to not be speaking from experience.
Normally it recommend turning your head quickly in order to turn in the air faster and easier, but you cant do that if you need to turn it back the other way upon landing.

Youre scared of it because youve come to associate it with negative feelings, and spinning in the air is not fun unless youre into that sort of thing.

 

[granfire]

ah..the 360...
I seem to remember it form my red belt form...

However, you are overthingking it.

Jump, spin 360. Practice. I had my problems with the move at first, too, but in the end it is simple.

now, as to the groin pain....squatting down should not hurt, and that is basically what the mechanics are.

So, examine the pain a little further, rest if it seems to be an injury, do more stretching and squats if it seems to be weakness.

(the jump is actually not the way we used to do it, but it strangely enough makes some sense in this form)

But in the end, you have to launch yourself up and turn around. not a really difficult move, just very unusual.

 

[chrispillertkd]

(the jump is actually not the way we used to do it, but it strangely enough makes some sense in this form)

FWIW, despite one of the students wearing an ITF dobok that video shows the wrong way to execute that jump according to the ITF.

Pax,

Chris

 

[granfire]

FWIW, despite one of the students wearing an ITF dobok that video shows the wrong way to execute that jump according to the ITF.

Pax,

Chris

I suppose it is, but that way it makes halfway sense, compared to standing there, hopping up and spinning, then standing there again....
Like I said, it wasn't the way we did the jump either.

And here is a point were I miss Mr Cobb, the forms aficionado from around here....he would have known what the spin was meant to be....

 

[Dirty Dog]

Try this:

Purpose of the jump? Avoid a low sweeping attack while checking what others in the area might be up to, and serve as an exercise in balance while building jumping strength.

 

[granfire]

minus the bobbing and the hissing, that was pretty much what ours looked like.

but I am not sure how much I would actually see spinning around like that....

 

[Dirty Dog]

minus the bobbing and the hissing, that was pretty much what ours looked like.

but I am not sure how much I would actually see spinning around like that....

I didn't learn it originally with the sine wave either. That was a later change to the Chang Hon Tul and one that I never quite got used to, even when I trained in ITF schools. In all honesty, though I still practice the Chang Hon forms, I don't do them with the sine wave even today.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I suppose it is, but that way it makes halfway sense, compared to standing there, hopping up and spinning, then standing there again....

Well, like Dirtydog said, the purpose is to avoid a low attack (usually explained as avoiding a strike to the legs with a staff, but it can be used to avoid a sweep, too). Taking off one leg at a time means you're leaving your back leg vulnerable to either being hit by the staff or by the sweep. In either case, you've rendered the jump useless.

Learning how to keep your body upright while jumping and spinning isn't really all that difficult.

The way the jump is performed in the video you posted is very similar to a jump I've seen in a Shotokan kata, except their landing is finished in a croched position with one leg back and one tucked underneath. The application I've seen of that is that you jump behind someone, grab their shoulders, and then pull them down. I've seen people pull it off rather well. But the landing in both Choong-Moo and Pyong Hwa makes that application dubious (especially since in Choong-Moo you're blocking a middle staff attack, jumping over a low staff attack, and then countering with an upset finger tip after the knife-hand guarding block).

Pax,

Chris

 

[lavender]

Here is the form, we do it more or less this way, the jump is at 34 seconds in:

I wish I could slow it down and analyze it. I've had success from watching something repeatedly and having the experience of breaking it down myself.
We're allowed to use our arms to help - with right side to the front of the room, put both arms straight to the left side (to the back wall), and swing them in front of yourself over to the right, using the momentum to help you turn. One problem is the discomfort of the jump, another is landing in horse stance, and the third is controlling the arms so you end with the knife hand. I was just really surprised by the discomfort. I know something about muscle anatomy, but I've never actually felt these muscles work before.

I would say this is the hardest element I've had to learn since returning to TKD. I've been told we'll have the same jump in other forms, but with a kick. Part of the scariness I think, is the big springing effort of the jump. I've never had to look for limits to my power and this feels like a big stretch since I've never had to do something like this.

Martial arts is supposed to help us learn to overcome fears and don't quit when you have to do something hard, so I guess this is one of those little tests on the road to black belt.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Notice that in both the video you posted and Mr Suskas, the stance is narrowed significantly prior to the jump. You're not jumping from a horse stance. Break it down. First, just practice the jump and spin. Don't worry about the landing. Then work the landing till you can consistently land in a horse stance. Then, and only then, do you worry about delivering the knidehand strike as you land.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Notice that in both the video you posted and Mr Suskas, the stance is narrowed significantly prior to the jump.

Hmm, for some reason I can't view the video you posted but since you mentioned that it was performed by Suska I am going to go ahead and commit near ITF-blasphemy Suska is an excellent technician and great at tul, but if you watch his videos there are certain things he does that are, in effect, "cheats" such as narrowing his fixed stance in Choong-Moo before jumping and spinning. He's still much better than me (and I expect if this was an ITF board I'd be tarred and feathered ) but there you go.

You're not jumping from a horse stance. Break it down. First, just practice the jump and spin. Don't worry about the landing. Then work the landing till you can consistently land in a horse stance. Then, and only then, do you worry about delivering the knidehand strike as you land.

Good advice. Many times we get a new technique and try to rush through it. The best thing to do is remember that each movement should be practiced and gotten proficient before the pattern is learned. And I've never seen anyone not land before, so that shouldn't be a worry

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Although we do not fo tis pattern as noted above the Chang Hon system has a pattern with a similar motion. I have a patented method for helping students do this.

Picture yourself as though you are in the middle of a clock dial in sitting stance with the right foot toward thee 12 and left foot toward the 6 with both beet pointing toward a line that would pass from the 11 thru the 8 and right hand toward the 12. Now that we have the orientation for the start down, you need to jump and turn counter clockwise. If you try to maintain the head ,hip, foot, hand orientation throughout the 360 degree jump it's nearly impossible, First rotate the head, arms and torso counterclockwise so the head is looking to the 5 and arms are pointing in that direction without moving the feet. You should not be tense. You have now rotated the upper body about 210 degrees before jumping. Now jump for the 360 letting the hands, head anf\d torso lead the way as the lower body catches. up. This way the lower bodu\y does not have to carry the upper body with it. Easier to sow than explain in writing.

As you get better it flows so that the initial and seperate upper body motion is virtualy unnoticeable.

 

[Earl Weiss]

FWIW, despite one of the students wearing an ITF dobok that video shows the wrong way to execute that jump according to the ITF.

Pax,

Chris

You are too kind;0. When I watch something like this I always wonder since they obviously follow a different standard whether their is any rationale behind this standard and if so, whetehr the students know the rationale.

 

[granfire]

And I've never seen anyone not land before, so that shouldn't be a worry

Pax,

Chris

:lol:

true

 

[granfire]

Here is the form, we do it more or less this way, the jump is at 34 seconds in:

I wish I could slow it down and analyze it. I've had success from watching something repeatedly and having the experience of breaking it down myself.
We're allowed to use our arms to help - with right side to the front of the room, put both arms straight to the left side (to the back wall), and swing them in front of yourself over to the right, using the momentum to help you turn. One problem is the discomfort of the jump, another is landing in horse stance, and the third is controlling the arms so you end with the knife hand. I was just really surprised by the discomfort. I know something about muscle anatomy, but I've never actually felt these muscles work before.

I would say this is the hardest element I've had to learn since returning to TKD. I've been told we'll have the same jump in other forms, but with a kick. Part of the scariness I think, is the big springing effort of the jump. I've never had to look for limits to my power and this feels like a big stretch since I've never had to do something like this.

Martial arts is supposed to help us learn to overcome fears and don't quit when you have to do something hard, so I guess this is one of those little tests on the road to black belt.

yes noted, the gentleman does shorten his stance before jumping.

Well, it is probably the most unconventional move in any form that I have done, all the variations not withstanding. It is different then the rest of the form. It is a somewhat static move - if you can call it that.

But there is only one way of learning it: Do it.
I wish I could tell you more. That there is a fancy trick to it.
Sadly it has been a few years (I have been a couch potato for the last 5 now...) and I forgot what my Sabum told me. It was actually pretty helpful.

But in the end, you gotta let loose and fly, Grasshopper

 

[lavender]

I also just noticed the guy in my video turns counterclockwise and we jump the other way. The instructor doesn't have an adult class right now and the red and up class does not usually do forms on the days I'm assisting (of course I don't do much assisting at my belt level). I've more or less learned the form through the video and the few times they have worked on it when I'm there (they can take a lower belt class). Not the ideal situation for me, but at least I'm back from my 5/6 year hiatus.

 

[WaterGal]

I had a hard time with a 360 jump at first as well. It helped me to practice doing 180 jumps for a while, and then moving up. Beyond that, it's just a matter of practicing, I think. I'm not sure why you'd do it from a horse stance, though. From a fighting stance, it can help with your jump back hook kick.