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Buka

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Quick intro:
Mun Mu Kwan Tae Kwon Do and Hap Ki Do practitioner for 46 years. Starting to expand into Kobudo.
I'm not familiar with Mun Mu Kwan. What is its origin? Is it one of the Kwans that was an offshoot of the "original" 5 (9 later on)?
 

Dirty Dog

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I'm not familiar with Mun Mu Kwan. What is its origin? Is it one of the Kwans that was an offshoot of the "original" 5 (9 later on)?
Good question. And not easily answered.
I did a bit of searching. Looks like Mun Moo Kwan was founded in 1969. As near as I can tell, it's in PA, with only a couple of affiliate schools. There is apparently one in Colorado, but I cannot find any info on it, other than a google result that claims it's in Littleton. So I am guessing the Kwan is fairly small. I can find no real info on the founder or current instructors. The only organization mentioned on the PA website is Kukkiwon, so I presume they award KKW rank. But that site also indicates that they use the Chang Hon forms. So if they're awarding KKW rank, they're apparently doing so without actually teaching the KKW curriculum.
 

dvcochran

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Good question. And not easily answered.
I did a bit of searching. Looks like Mun Moo Kwan was founded in 1969. As near as I can tell, it's in PA, with only a couple of affiliate schools. There is apparently one in Colorado, but I cannot find any info on it, other than a google result that claims it's in Littleton. So I am guessing the Kwan is fairly small. I can find no real info on the founder or current instructors. The only organization mentioned on the PA website is Kukkiwon, so I presume they award KKW rank. But that site also indicates that they use the Chang Hon forms. So if they're awarding KKW rank, they're apparently doing so without actually teaching the KKW curriculum.
Which in turn limits the KKW advancement to 3rd or 4th Dan. Assuming the Instructor himself has not pursued higher rank and now the Master courses.
 

Dirty Dog

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Which in turn limits the KKW advancement to 3rd or 4th Dan. Assuming the Instructor himself has not pursued higher rank and now the Master courses.
Seems odd that a person could get to even 1st Dan without knowing the KKW curriculum.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kukkiwon rules allow promotion to one rank below the recommending instructor, with the exception of 8th and 9th Dan, which must be tested at the Kukkiwon. So depending on the KKW rank of the instructor, they could potentially be promoting up to 7th Dan.
And of course, none of that impacts rank awarded by their Kwan.
 

dvcochran

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Seems odd that a person could get to even 1st Dan without knowing the KKW curriculum.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kukkiwon rules allow promotion to one rank below the recommending instructor, with the exception of 8th and 9th Dan, which must be tested at the Kukkiwon. So depending on the KKW rank of the instructor, they could potentially be promoting up to 7th Dan.
And of course, none of that impacts rank awarded by their Kwan.
For the most part but it is supposed to be changing. 4th Dan and above plus the instructor will have to go through the Master class.
It is my understanding that a lot of grandfathering is going on for instructors who have been teaching for a while.
 
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Yanli

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Seems odd that a person could get to even 1st Dan without knowing the KKW curriculum.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kukkiwon rules allow promotion to one rank below the recommending instructor, with the exception of 8th and 9th Dan, which must be tested at the Kukkiwon. So depending on the KKW rank of the instructor, they could potentially be promoting up to 7th Dan.
And of course, none of that impacts rank awarded by their Kwan.
I have been hearing a lot about how instructors can only teach up to a certain rank, I find it odd that even a forth degree does not grow in rank so they can continue teaching up to a higher rank. There is an instructor near me that tells his students that once they have received a black belt, they have to go to Asia to advance? I do not remember exactly what his form is, but I find it ridiculous to pay a school that can only teach up to a black belt, is this common? I am from a small town in a rural area, is there something I am missing or unaware of???
 

Dirty Dog

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I have been hearing a lot about how instructors can only teach up to a certain rank,
I'm pretty sure this is near universal. Do you know any arts that allow a teacher to promote someone to a higher level than the teacher?
I find it odd that even a forth degree does not grow in rank so they can continue teaching up to a higher rank.
That would be entirely up to the 4th Dan. If they want to promote high than 3rd, they will need to seek out training and promotion.
There is an instructor near me that tells his students that once they have received a black belt, they have to go to Asia to advance?
I don't think that's common at all.
I do not remember exactly what his form is, but I find it ridiculous to pay a school that can only teach up to a black belt, is this common? I am from a small town in a rural area, is there something I am missing or unaware of???
I suspect you're missing something.
 
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Ji Yuu

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I'm not familiar with Mun Mu Kwan. What is its origin? Is it one of the Kwans that was an offshoot of the "original" 5 (9 later on)?
The original Mun Mu Kwan was founded in 1966 and the name was suggested by General Choi, one of TKDs founders. I think by 1969, the MMK branched out into a few small schools and formed the World Tae Kwon Do Association. Somewhere along the line, they became affiliated with Kukkiwan while maintaining the old curriculum (Chang Hon pattern set). The old school I attended bore the WTKD Association and the WTWD Federation patches. Our certificates even declared the school's attachment to both.

As far as it's lineage goes, I think the MMK founder was a part of either the Mu Duk Kwan or Chun Do Kwan. But I am not sure. I have been trying to create a lineage chart which is surprisingly difficult.
 
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Ji Yuu

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Seems odd that a person could get to even 1st Dan without knowing the KKW curriculum.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kukkiwon rules allow promotion to one rank below the recommending instructor, with the exception of 8th and 9th Dan, which must be tested at the Kukkiwon. So depending on the KKW rank of the instructor, they could potentially be promoting up to 7th Dan.
And of course, none of that impacts rank awarded by their Kwan.
I understand your point about it being odd to get 1st Dan without knowing KKW material. However, there is a local Mu Duk Kwan school that is under the KKW banner and test all belts, including dan ranks, under the old Chang Hon curriculum. No one there learns the Tae Guk patterns, yet they are all recognized by the KKW. I don't understand that, unless the school was grandfathered in at some point.
 

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