I have a quick question. What caused Hayes to be separated from the Bujinkan?
Hayes
- Thread starter Josh Oakley
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newtothe dark
Purple Belt
That is most definetly not a quick question. If you search the ninja threads there is many talks on it. But basicly he is TOSHINDO now that is his thing.
OP
OP
Absolutely a quick question. Never asked for a quick answer, though.
i believe I heard it that he amicablly split with the Bujinkan and started his own organization.
If by amicably you mean that his plaque was publically taken down from the rank board at Honbu Dojo, then yes.
At this point, I think there are only two people who know his exact status, and the why's of that status. Hayes and Hatsumi. Neither is saying much publicly, from what I've read. It appears to be clear that Hayes is no longer considered part of the Bujinkan; whether he still has a student/teacher relationship with Hatsumi (or has had this for some time) is less clear. In the end -- it's their business.
Jks9199 it is very clear within the Bujinkan where Hayes status is now. Plaque taken down. George Ohashi stating publicly on his board that if people wish this to be considered hamon then do so. See attached link.
Publically it is very obvious where things stand.
Having said that personally I think that Hayes Sensei is a fine martial artist and an outstanding writer. He did a great job is helping to spread the Bujinkan and deserves tons of respect for that.
GBlues
Purple Belt
Boy you opened a hornets nest with this question. Trust me I've been down the To-shindo/Bujinkan conversation before. If you want to know Stephen Hayes's response go to his website and ask personally. It's easier and faster and you'll get an answer that you can at least appreciate, rather than getting sarcastic statements. Apparently this is a real bad subject in the ninjutsu world. That's my best advice, and humble opinion.
The screenshot above is taken from the Honbu dojo administrator, website. I think that's a pretty clear answer, no matter what Hayes' website says...
I dunno... I think to some extent it's the buisness of their students. But I believe that there is a responsibility between a teacher and a student that goes both ways...
My teacher has the responsibility to teach me what he knows to the best of his ability and at the level of my ability (meaning he doesn't need to teach me material I am not ready to learn or it is not safe for me to learn...) and provide me a "safe" (after all what we practice can be dangerous) envrionment. He should be open, honest and comunicative and leave his personal issues out of the dojo (dont kick my *** cuz he argued with his wife earlier)
I have the responsibility to show up, prepared to learn, be attentive and receptive... do my best to utilize a level of control that helps foster that safe environment I mentioned above (It wouldnt do for me to come snap someones arm in 3 places every time I show up for practice) and keep our training hall in good condition... etc...
I think that Lying to your students (and I'm not saying Hayes is lying, its a general statement) or misleading them about your training, (past or present) or doing things like holding back "sekret knowlage" until they pay extra to join your "sekret" inner circle (again, general statement not directed to/about Hayes) is sort of a violation of the teacher's responsibility.
I think that the Hayes/Hatsumi thing could fall into that catagory on both sides of the fence, where the relationship SHOULD be made clear to their students and not kept a secret between the two. At the very least, if both sides are open and honest about it it would stop feeding the internet debate and allow us to stop typing and just go train.
GBlues
Purple Belt
Yeah but everytime someone brings this question up, and somebody tries to give a simple easy no arguments answer you can back with, " Well, if you mean as in his plaque taken down from the wall, then yeah amicable" And all I'm saying is that if he wants to know ask the guy. Just because you pop something off of the internet don't make it true. Just means you got it off of the internet. I mean if a guy wants to know ask, ask both parties and make a decision, I personally have decided that I don't care one way or the other, not that important. M-kay?
Except that it's not something randomly taken off the internet. We already know that Hayes denies anything happened, but I'll take the word of the Bujinkan Honbu dojo administrator over Hayes any day.
GBlues
Purple Belt
Here's the thing. Couple of things. My instructor asked me not to talk about this anymore as I am new to the art and don't know as much as some of the other people around about the whole hayes, hatsumi, thing. Truthfully for myself and speaking for myself it's not that big of a deal. If lineage is your thing then yeah, it probably is. If you got a hard on for the the bujinkan and hate everything hayes then yeah it probably is. But even in that picture that you put up on your post, it says, " Please don't make a fuss over this on the internet" Now I know that you probably did a search using Mr. Hayes's name, and got that post. But it doesn't help the fact that his name is not mentioned, and it is specifically said that, that person shall remain nameless. So in reality it could be any 10th dan that hatsumi has who's plaque was taken off of the wall. Just playing devil's advocate. Again, this is a bad subject for both Bujinkan, and To-shindo guys, and the longer that we keep bringing it up, the longer these arguments, and peddly little things will continue. What we should say, and that includes me and you, all of the Bujinkan and to-shindo guys should say when a new person asks this question, is very simply this. " We both the Bujinkan and To-Shindo practitioners have been told that this is a private matter between Mr. Hayes, and Soke Hatsumi ( or vice versa if this particular order of names bothers anyone), and that if you truly wish to know, you should take it up with one or both of them. We have been informed that this is a non-issue and does not concern either parties training regiment, as both are separate and unique in there own ways, and we should respect and honor both parties endeavor for enlightenment in the warrior ways." Now what is wron with that?! Nobody loses face, and we actually might be able to put this conversation to rest, because it really is not helping anybody, just making things worse for all involved.
*OR*
Toshindo newbies could stop claiming that everything is fine with Hayes' Bujinkan membership and everyone else is just jealous, which has been the spin the last few times this topic came up.
GBlues
Purple Belt
Yeah but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't know. And truthfully I don't care. What I'm learning feels right for me. THat's what matters. I just think that a man makes mistakes. If Mr. Hayes has made mistakes ok, every man does. Should you be held accountable your whole life for a small thing? Would you want to be held to the standards that apparently everyone else wants to hold him too? How would you feel if you were told, that you couldn't teach the way you wanted too? Maybe you've found that your way works better, for your students. Shouldn't you be allowed to try something different? Does it matter really in the great grand scheme of life if every to-shindo beginner doesn't know that Mr. Hayes is not a part of the Bujinkan? Really? If he learns to protect himself does it matter? I mean is it really worth ruining a mans reputation?
I mean don't get me wrong and I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but sometimes some of these conversations go down a road, where it seems like Mr. Hayes may have actually snuck into some of these guys' houses and pissed in there wheaties! LOL! I mean come on! I'm sure that somewhere, at some time, Hatsumi did something that he wasn't proud of either, or made a mistake that he wishes he could take back. Most people do. And Hatsumi, or Mr. Hayes, or any number of martial artists have made mistakes. Many times. There men, not gods, not immortals, men. Like you, like me, like everyone. Just they chose a different type of work than most men, a different life.
If as an example I brought you out on a waterwell rig, probably for a lot of people something they have never done. If I told you when you asked a heartfelt question that, you really wanted answered and I said, " NO! That's not right. It's never gonna' be right, it's the wrong way to do it! Stop!" How would that make you feel or to take it even one step further, maybe somebody's dad worked in the water wells and had given him a wealth of knowledge, and he came to work for me, and says, " YOu know my dad says that we should mix the viscosity in the mud to exactly 35 when you first start is that how you want it done?" SO I reply, " Look, is your dad still drilling?" and the young man says, " Well no, he aint drilling anymore?"
"Well did he get fired?"
"No, sir it was very amicable he and his boss decided that it was time for him to retire. He's done it along time."
" So basically your dad can't hack it anymore, and you think your gonna' just come out here and do drilling huh?"
Probably I just made that young man feel really bad. He looks up to his dad to give him the knowledge that he needs. I never answered his question I just made him feel like his dad was loser. THe same is true with martial artists. We look up to our instructors for advice and knowledge, that we can't get from somebody else.
Now if that young man with his one day of me bad mouthing him and his dad, says, " SCrew it what does this guy know, my dad's been doing it for 30 some odd years. I'll start my own drilling business and show them all!" HE just might be better at it, than me, cause his dad has 30 years on me, and taught him what he needed to know, to survive in that industry.
How would you feel if you felt that you had found the martial art you have always been looking for, only to be told that it's not. OR that there are questions about YOUR instructors authenticity? Wouldn't it better if someone said, " You know you really should take this up with your instructor. He probably can answer this question better than me." OR are we so pompious and arrogant that we have to answer the question and perhaps steer someone away from an art that they truly feel like they belong in? These are questions that I have asked myself many times about more than one instructor, and I've come to the conclusion that I think Mr. Myagi from the karate kid was right. Remember what he said?
"Daniel-san you walk a road. Walk the left side ok, walk the right side ok. Walk in the middle and sooner or later *KWIK* squish like grape. Same same you do karate. You do karate yes, ok. You do karate no, ok. YOu do karate guess so and sooner or later *KWIK* just like a grape."
Now we sow the seeds of doubt into a young, or beginner martial artists head, and they'll do there martial art "guess so" they'll get hurt. In truth it doesn't matter what you study, so long as you practice and believe in it. Because without those nothing you train will work for you. But you put doubt and man, it's hard to get past that for alot of people. I know that your hearts are in the right place, mine is too, none of us want to see somebody get hurt, because they learned something that is ineffective, but by the same token. We all of us, have our own opinions on what is effective. I believe in to-shindo. I believe in Bujinkan, I believe in kenpo and half a dozen other arts I have seen or been exposed to, ( not to be confused with having studied, been exposed to.) I believe that yes there are problems in all martial arts, politics and stuff. BUt as experienced martial artists, shouldn't we all just be happy that they are learning something that they can and will be able to protect themselves with. Let's end this conversation about hatsumi and hayes. Who cares? If your doing martial arts do it because you love it, not because you want to walk around and brag about your instructor learned from the founder of such and such art, do it because it feels good to you. Do it because you have faith in it, and for god's sake, let other people do it for themselves. Whew I feel like a durned JW again. LOL!
I hope I kind of made my point so that people will understand where I'm coming from. I guess I just see this as a mute point anymore. Both parties will do what they do. Regardless of right or wrong. And don't forget, that every instructor has students, and when they move on they don't always do as there told. Perhaps, just perhaps, some of these guys that are telling these to-shindo guys this stuff, aren't following there instructors wishes, and it's not Hayes's fault someone had been told a falicy. Maybe it's just another instructors way of trying to get students through his door. It happens in every art. Every style. But don't blame someone until you know for a fact that he is or is continuing to do so. Because in fact all that you know are rumors that he is still saying this, and it MAY not be the case. I have said this before and I will say it again. My instructor never told me that I could obtain rank in the bujinkan. It is a topic that again I have never asked about and don't need too. I do to-shindo, and if at a later date in my life I want to do Bujinkan I will seek out a qualified bujinkan instructor for that. For me this is the right course, for you and many other it may not be. For me bujinkan is not the right course right now, maybe later, it will be, who know what the future holds. My mind is open to the possibilities because brother there endless!
I mean don't get me wrong and I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but sometimes some of these conversations go down a road, where it seems like Mr. Hayes may have actually snuck into some of these guys' houses and pissed in there wheaties! LOL! I mean come on! I'm sure that somewhere, at some time, Hatsumi did something that he wasn't proud of either, or made a mistake that he wishes he could take back. Most people do. And Hatsumi, or Mr. Hayes, or any number of martial artists have made mistakes. Many times. There men, not gods, not immortals, men. Like you, like me, like everyone. Just they chose a different type of work than most men, a different life.
If as an example I brought you out on a waterwell rig, probably for a lot of people something they have never done. If I told you when you asked a heartfelt question that, you really wanted answered and I said, " NO! That's not right. It's never gonna' be right, it's the wrong way to do it! Stop!" How would that make you feel or to take it even one step further, maybe somebody's dad worked in the water wells and had given him a wealth of knowledge, and he came to work for me, and says, " YOu know my dad says that we should mix the viscosity in the mud to exactly 35 when you first start is that how you want it done?" SO I reply, " Look, is your dad still drilling?" and the young man says, " Well no, he aint drilling anymore?"
"Well did he get fired?"
"No, sir it was very amicable he and his boss decided that it was time for him to retire. He's done it along time."
" So basically your dad can't hack it anymore, and you think your gonna' just come out here and do drilling huh?"
Probably I just made that young man feel really bad. He looks up to his dad to give him the knowledge that he needs. I never answered his question I just made him feel like his dad was loser. THe same is true with martial artists. We look up to our instructors for advice and knowledge, that we can't get from somebody else.
Now if that young man with his one day of me bad mouthing him and his dad, says, " SCrew it what does this guy know, my dad's been doing it for 30 some odd years. I'll start my own drilling business and show them all!" HE just might be better at it, than me, cause his dad has 30 years on me, and taught him what he needed to know, to survive in that industry.
How would you feel if you felt that you had found the martial art you have always been looking for, only to be told that it's not. OR that there are questions about YOUR instructors authenticity? Wouldn't it better if someone said, " You know you really should take this up with your instructor. He probably can answer this question better than me." OR are we so pompious and arrogant that we have to answer the question and perhaps steer someone away from an art that they truly feel like they belong in? These are questions that I have asked myself many times about more than one instructor, and I've come to the conclusion that I think Mr. Myagi from the karate kid was right. Remember what he said?
"Daniel-san you walk a road. Walk the left side ok, walk the right side ok. Walk in the middle and sooner or later *KWIK* squish like grape. Same same you do karate. You do karate yes, ok. You do karate no, ok. YOu do karate guess so and sooner or later *KWIK* just like a grape."
Now we sow the seeds of doubt into a young, or beginner martial artists head, and they'll do there martial art "guess so" they'll get hurt. In truth it doesn't matter what you study, so long as you practice and believe in it. Because without those nothing you train will work for you. But you put doubt and man, it's hard to get past that for alot of people. I know that your hearts are in the right place, mine is too, none of us want to see somebody get hurt, because they learned something that is ineffective, but by the same token. We all of us, have our own opinions on what is effective. I believe in to-shindo. I believe in Bujinkan, I believe in kenpo and half a dozen other arts I have seen or been exposed to, ( not to be confused with having studied, been exposed to.) I believe that yes there are problems in all martial arts, politics and stuff. BUt as experienced martial artists, shouldn't we all just be happy that they are learning something that they can and will be able to protect themselves with. Let's end this conversation about hatsumi and hayes. Who cares? If your doing martial arts do it because you love it, not because you want to walk around and brag about your instructor learned from the founder of such and such art, do it because it feels good to you. Do it because you have faith in it, and for god's sake, let other people do it for themselves. Whew I feel like a durned JW again. LOL!
I hope I kind of made my point so that people will understand where I'm coming from. I guess I just see this as a mute point anymore. Both parties will do what they do. Regardless of right or wrong. And don't forget, that every instructor has students, and when they move on they don't always do as there told. Perhaps, just perhaps, some of these guys that are telling these to-shindo guys this stuff, aren't following there instructors wishes, and it's not Hayes's fault someone had been told a falicy. Maybe it's just another instructors way of trying to get students through his door. It happens in every art. Every style. But don't blame someone until you know for a fact that he is or is continuing to do so. Because in fact all that you know are rumors that he is still saying this, and it MAY not be the case. I have said this before and I will say it again. My instructor never told me that I could obtain rank in the bujinkan. It is a topic that again I have never asked about and don't need too. I do to-shindo, and if at a later date in my life I want to do Bujinkan I will seek out a qualified bujinkan instructor for that. For me this is the right course, for you and many other it may not be. For me bujinkan is not the right course right now, maybe later, it will be, who know what the future holds. My mind is open to the possibilities because brother there endless!
JadecloudAlchemist
Master of Arts
Gblues,
Getting your name removed IMO sounds like Hamon.
I am not part of the Bujinkan but if it is Hamon it is a serious offense.
It is not some small mistake it is a grave one and in some cases a shameful one.
Getting your name removed IMO sounds like Hamon.
I am not part of the Bujinkan but if it is Hamon it is a serious offense.
It is not some small mistake it is a grave one and in some cases a shameful one.
I think if you practice in To Shin do under Mr. Hayes or one of his instructors that you should be proud to do so. He is a fine martial artist and has a lot to offer.
What you need to also understand is that you are studying To Shin Do which is different than Budo Taijutsu. Understand that their is a separation and that they are no longer one and the same. If you get that then every thing is cool!
In the end you make a choice to train with someone based on their fitting your needs and having a skill that they can pass onto you. Find the right instructor for you because in the end that is what is important.
What you need to also understand is that you are studying To Shin Do which is different than Budo Taijutsu. Understand that their is a separation and that they are no longer one and the same. If you get that then every thing is cool!
In the end you make a choice to train with someone based on their fitting your needs and having a skill that they can pass onto you. Find the right instructor for you because in the end that is what is important.
