Have you learned any thing??

[Xue Sheng]

@Xue Sheng, when we have a fear of an unknown, the outcome will be the same whether we fear it or not, yes? I wonder is time spent fearing a future unknown thing time missed doing some thing more beneficial in the right here and right now? Does being close to the ideal of mushin permit us to leave that worry and fear? Do you think with sufficient diligence we can make it such that we do not even tough that worry and fear and but refuse it altogether rather than having to work to get rid of it?? Thank you again XS  Jxx

when we have a fear of an unknown, the outcome will be the same whether we fear it or not, yes?

Yes and no. The outcome of the issue you are fearing will be the outcome if you fear it or not, but the outcome as it applies to your health can be effected by the fear and stress, and without that you are likely belter off

I wonder is time spent fearing a future unknown thing time missed doing something more beneficial in the right here and right now?

Mindfulness is always more beneficial IMO and I have to remind myself of that from time to time

Does being close to the ideal of mushin permit us to leave that worry and fear?

I believe a Buddhist will tell you yes. I would say yes and no, it just helps you understand better, what it is, where it comes from, etc. But IMO without fear you cannot know calmness.

However you may no longer worry about it since there is nothing that you can truly do about it.

I have said for a long time, that if something is bothering you and you can do something about it, then do it and there is nothing to worry about. If you can’t do anything about it then again there is no reason to worry since you can’t change it…so why worry. Although admittedly I do not always follow that, case in point, my oldest is in China and I worry, but I cannot change the fact he is in China.

Do you think with sufficient diligence we can make it such that we do not even tough that worry and fear and but refuse it altogether rather than having to work to get rid of it??

Again a Buddhist might tell you can get rid of it but you have to practice. Since it is suffering and if you follow the Eightfold Path and the 4 Noble Truths you can be free of suffering. As for me I do not think you can ever “refuse it”, it is there. It is how you deal with it that makes the difference. You cannot refuse or suppress an emotion (it is not healthy), you can only learn to live with them IMHO.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

@ks - learning to fly, ks!! your mom is awesome because she has had such a role in making you awesome too! I am really grateful to read of how such fortitude and resilience can be handed on from parent to child thank you for relating your story! It is difficult some times for people that do not have your buffers against such horrible hard knocks of life.. Can you imagine ks how different the world would be like if every one was given the example, the encouragement and unconditional love from their parent as you are from your mom? Wishes, Jxxxx

That would be a pretty cool world huh..? Thanks!

 

[Jenna]

Yes and no. The outcome of the issue you are fearing will be the outcome if you fear it or not, but the outcome as it applies to your health can be effected by the fear and stress, and without that you are likely belter off



Mindfulness is always more beneficial IMO and I have to remind myself of that from time to time



I believe a Buddhist will tell you yes. I would say yes and no, it just helps you understand better, what it is, where it comes from, etc. But IMO without fear you cannot know calmness.

However you may no longer worry about it since there is nothing that you can truly do about it.

I have said for a long time, that if something is bothering you and you can do something about it, then do it and there is nothing to worry about. If you can’t do anything about it then again there is no reason to worry since you can’t change it…so why worry. Although admittedly I do not always follow that, case in point, my oldest is in China and I worry, but I cannot change the fact he is in China.



Again a Buddhist might tell you can get rid of it but you have to practice. Since it is suffering and if you follow the Eightfold Path and the 4 Noble Truths you can be free of suffering. As for me I do not think you can ever “refuse it”, it is there. It is how you deal with it that makes the difference. You cannot refuse or suppress an emotion (it is not healthy), you can only learn to live with them IMHO.

Your oldest is in China having an awesome time learning and growing so much in such an incredible culture! and here is you worrying? Ah I understand where you are XS, what loving parent would not?

What could I even say? while you meditate, rather than have your focus controlled by worries what would happen if you focussed on nothing except the smile on the face of your eldest and on knowing you have helped them to achieve their growth and happiness? There is no reason why that should not be so! there is no reason why they should not be safe and healthy and supported and upheld in all ways and overjoyed at having their mind and life enlarged in such a wonderful place, yes? so.. xx

 

[EddieCyrax]

@Xue Sheng,
@EddieCyrax, Eddie, hey thank you, these are valuable and relevant lessons! it is some thing I think about and I do not know if you had ever.. that some times what we fear is really a fear of some thing else, some thing deeper.. I mean if we are fear defeat or being beat, what is this a fear of? It can be fear of the physical pain? Is can be the fear of looking bad or the fear of feeling belittled? Or the fear of feeling we lack competence or skill.. is interesting.. how do you see fear of defeat?? It takes strength though to admit fear, would you say? I am interested very much in learning how did you go about controlling those fears and is ita teaching that could be applied or learned by some one else?? That would be very useful for me too.. Thank you again, Jxx

As you mentioned the fear of defeat can take many forms and is usually a derivative of many past life experiences. Obviously a very complex emotion.

For me it became a conscious thought process to not let these emotions/feelings dictate my actions. This has become easier over time, but still takes a mental engagement at times.

An example. I am a very fit but slim/skinny individual. This said, I have always struggled sparring individuals who are much larger in size than myself. I especially struggle with these individuals should they deploy a "bull rush" strategy to over power/dominate me with their size/strength advantage. Early in my MA training the fear of being dominated and destroyed would place me instantly in a full defensive mode.....This only made matters worse as they dictated the dance. My fear became a significant cap on my true potential.... Over time with training my techniques have improved, but more importantly i mentally made note of when i was feeling the fear and forced myself to go on the attack forcing them to deal with me. I may still on occasion be dominated, but I now take my success in scoring/landing strikes through counters/footwork. This one thing improved my effectiveness 1000 fold.

The fear never leaves (life experiences run deep), but I have found a way to recognize these feelings within myself and begin to use this to my advantage. This has also transferred into other parts of life outside the dojo.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Your oldest is in China having an awesome time learning and growing so much in such an incredible culture! and here is you worrying? Ah I understand where you are XS, what loving parent would not?

He's with family, but the place is so bloody polluted and he is already complaining the food is way too salty

What could I even say? while you meditate, rather than have your focus controlled by worries what would happen if you focussed on nothing except the smile on the face of your eldest and on knowing you have helped them to achieve their growth and happiness? There is no reason why that should not be so! there is no reason why they should not be safe and healthy and supported and upheld in all ways and overjoyed at having their mind and life enlarged in such a wonderful place, yes? so.. xx

Got to let them go sooner or later

 

[Orange Lightning]

It is interesting you say you do not know how you will behave in a situation because you are not there.. it is interesting because you are considering how you will act though you are not ther.. do you think some people believe there is a greater likelihood for them than others of being in a situation where they will be required to defend their selves? I mean why do some of us consider this a risk significant enough that we train our selves for its probability? Is it our life experiences that determine this evaluation of risk or our outlook on how the world and other people are? What do you think?

“Decision Failure”? ha I can picture this phrase under one of those motivational posters – suitably illustrated

And you are more aware of your shortcomings than most every one here? that is an interesting position to adopt.. is that a beneficial way for you to be do you find? And are there times when that is not your position?

@Jenna

Well, yeah. I do think some people have a higher chance of of feel like they have a higher chance of needing to be able to defend themselves. I"m in an incredibly low bracket for that though. The odds of me getting into an altercation where I live are slim to none. Never know though. My future is not my today.
I feel that not everyone trains for self defense necessarily. I mean, it's always going to be a helpful part of it. Physical health, enjoyment, or an instinctive need perhaps. Gaining mastery of your body in a skill makes us happy humans. Empowering in a deep sense. The famous "enlightenment" example. Everybody has their reasons I think.

I am not more aware of my own shortcomings than anyone else here. The grass is always greener.
I was talking about self training. It has a lot of obstacles, and some of them simply can't be solved. Every time it comes into a conversation, people want to tell me all the issues with self training. Which drives me crazy, because I'm very aware of them. That seems to get confused with my opinion that you can make progress, and people continue arguing with me about things I don't really disagree much with.

 

[Jenna]

@EddieCyrax, I understand by your example exactly what you mean Eddie thank you. with out knowing, I also get a sense of the gravity of those life experiences I imagine you are alluding to.. Thank you for sharing and I respect that and also respect the courage it take to be honest over ones fear –maybe it is more a male thing.. even so.. thank you! I am still curious to know though.. if you found it non beneficial to be coerced by your fear into that full defensive mode and over time became wise to that fear feeling and then forced your self to go on the attack.. Even though this has improved your effectiveness 1000 fold does it matter that the fear has not left and the implication is that the same fear is still making you dance only now to a different, more attacking tune, if you follow? Is fear useful? I mean it is some time like “hey I have no control over it.. amygdala, adrenaline..” etc etc.. I mean I wonder just because we “feel” a physical sensation can we trust our emotional reasoning that because that sensation feels real and so the fear must be proportionately bad? And I am not questioning you my friend.. I am questioning myself using your example and hoping your insight is as helpful as before.. wishes Jx


@Xue Sheng I feel your pain dear XS I so do.. are you stoical? Does meditation take your mind away or is it only temporary? What is the answer? xx

@Orange Lightning, yes you are correct there are more reasons for training than just the one I mention thank you.. I sense you are bugged more than a little about what you say people have remarked to you about self-training I am guessing they had not been encouraging? like they are raining on your parade?? I think that would bug me too.. are you deterred by this? Jx

 

[Orange Lightning]

@Jenna

yes you are correct there are more reasons for training than just the one I mention thank you.. I sense you are bugged more than a little about what you say people have remarked to you about self-training I am guessing they had not been encouraging? like they are raining on your parade?? I think that would bug me too.. are you deterred by this? Jx

Eh. Not really. It bothered me a little at first. Not anymore. Mostly it's just frustrating to talk about because it gets in the way of real discussion or advice.
Very much not encouraging. Although I understand the criticism. I agree with quite a bit of it even. Not deterred though. Not in the slightest.

 

[Balrog]

I am interested to know of any one here..

What has doing your MA taught you about your self as a person?

And if the answer is not a thing or you do not much care or MA has no business teaching me about my self as a person, I would also be interested to know because I am not certain whether other practitioners stop to evaluate personal self learnings from their MA or is it just me..

Thank you very much for your input, Jxx

Many, many things. Courtesy, loyalty, respect, perseverance, discipline, self-control....the list goes on.
And no matter what I learn, there's always something new to learn.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Definitely not to listen immediately to what I perceive as my limits, because in most cases I've been able to surpass what I thought was my 100%.

I don't doubt myself anymore.

 

[Xue Sheng]

@Xue Sheng I feel your pain dear XS I so do.. are you stoical?

Well I have been called a Vulcan and a an "emotionless German" (by my ex-wife, my heritage is mostly German, but to everyone outside of the USA I'm an American) in the past, if that helps..... but I am not as stoical as I use to be, not since my father passed away.

Does meditation take your mind away or is it only temporary?

No mediations does not take the mind away, it actually helps focus it

What is the answer? xx

Live life, don't fight it, it might just be the only one we got

 

[Shai Hulud]

Well I have been called a Vulcan and a an "emotionless German" (by my ex-wife, my heritage is mostly German, but to everyone outside of the USA I'm an American) in the past, if that helps..... but I am not as stoical as I use to be, not since my father passed away.



No mediations does not take the mind away, it actually helps focus it



Live life, don't fight it, it might just be the only one we got

Hi-five from a fellow Stoic.

 

[Jenna]

@Orange Lightning, well I am glad you do not feel bothered any more. If you were advising some one in the same situation, facing discouragement or the disparagement of others in their training say, how would you help them not feel bothered since you have been there and done that? Thank you Jx

@Balrog, your MA has taught you some valuable skills beyond the mats thank you for sharing.. I want to ask you few things.. can you have respect for some one when they have none for you? And how can we aspire to mastery when like you say, we know there is always some thing new to learn? Thank you Jx

@Shai Hulud, dear M, I agree whole heartedly with your appraisal of limits, it is a great thing to know and understand.. I think it is always possible to go just one more And I would like to ask how you learned not to doubt your self because I think this is a common and often not spoken way among all of us? Thank you Jxxx

@Xue Sheng, well perhaps your ex-wife is not the most objective appraisal of you? German people who I deal with I find are very deeply thoughtful.. there are many thought processes all competing I think.. I find German people very thorough for this though.. I want to know how something is done best and most efficient then I am glad to be in Germany and I know I will be also told simply and forthright.. there is far less disingenuous than I would get in London.. oh.. and the cars.. oh.. and meat haha.. Anyway I am sorry your dad passing has shaken your stoicism, will it return to you do you think? I should like very much to know how you blend with lifes flow and do not fight with it? Thank you, wishes Jxx

 

[Orange Lightning]

@Jenna

well I am glad you do not feel bothered any more. If you were advising some one in the same situation, facing discouragement or the disparagement of others in their training say, how would you help them not feel bothered since you have been there and done that? Thank you Jx

Well... I don't want to make someone discount rational criticism. I wouldn't want to recommend a way of thinking that ignores thoughts that are counter to one's own opinion. Actually, quite the opposite. Definitely take them into account. Attempt to explore the other point of view and try to be unbiased. Own up to mistakes. With potential new truths exposed, embrace the new thoughts and opinions you have as they come and see if those are true. But don't go halfway. Don't reach a point where you aren't sure what your opinion is and walk away from the issue conflicted.
Or, choose to not have an opinion. If you find that you can't decide, choose to develop that opinion in the future when you have the opportunity. Research it. Ask more people more questions. Do what you can until that time.

A little ironic I suppose. That's basically the summary of why I'm here.

 

[Jenna]

@Jenna

Well... I don't want to make someone discount rational criticism. I wouldn't want to recommend a way of thinking that ignores thoughts that are counter to one's own opinion. Actually, quite the opposite. Definitely take them into account. Attempt to explore the other point of view and try to be unbiased. Own up to mistakes. With potential new truths exposed, embrace the new thoughts and opinions you have as they come and see if those are true. But don't go halfway. Don't reach a point where you aren't sure what your opinion is and walk away from the issue conflicted.
Or, choose to not have an opinion. If you find that you can't decide, choose to develop that opinion in the future when you have the opportunity. Research it. Ask more people more questions. Do what you can until that time.

A little ironic I suppose. That's basically the summary of why I'm here.

What you suggest.. some of it is easier said than done, no? I mean not ignoring thoughts counter to ones own opinion means accepting ones own opinion may not be the best opinion to have.. that is easy for you to accept?? Not maybe for everyone.. like just look at this forum or any other.. it is full of inability to accept.. what is the mindset that permits the thought.. I concede my opinion is maybe not the best opinion.. what need to happen to bring this about?? While it seem prudent, still it also requires an openness and humility not everyone have.. how can this be taught? I think you are insightful btw Jx

 

[Transk53]

like just look at this forum or any other.. it is full of inability to accept.. what is the mindset that permits the thought

Because people do not have to, it is a forum as you say. However, I will say that Martial Talk is as professional sounding and being as a forum can get.

 

[Jenna]

Because people do not have to, it is a forum as you say. However, I will say that Martial Talk is as professional sounding and being as a forum can get.

I agree with you.. I never much liked other MA forums I used to frequent.. it was the attitude not the opinions.. well, it was the opinions engendered by the attitude lols

Tell me Transk53, how would you your self come by the decision to take on board a contrary opinion, say on some aspect of your training or performance that you did NOT INITIALLY agree with or maybe got your back up if you follow? What would make you look past your own initial assessment of that opinion that you may have felt to be true ie. that the opinion was unjustified or unfair or unwarranted? Thank you Jx

 

[Transk53]

I agree with you.. I never much liked other MA forums I used to frequent.. it was the attitude not the opinions.. well, it was the opinions engendered by the attitude lols

Tell me Transk53, how would you your self come by the decision to take on board a contrary opinion, say on some aspect of your training or performance that you did NOT INITIALLY agree with or maybe got your back up if you follow? What would make you look past your own initial assessment of that opinion that you may have felt to be true ie. that the opinion was unjustified or unfair or unwarranted? Thank you Jx

In general such things do not bother me if I deem it unwarranted or not, at me personally at least. There are so many opinions on a forum as well as in the real world. I take on all opinions and listen to what is being said, or being demonstrated, or both. However, even if it is wrong to me, if the opinion has substance then I mark it as something to delve further into and explore the nitty gritty of it. I make assessments all the time, then seconds later I make more assessments and so on. Usually I either get bored and move onto something else, or I dedicate some brain space and focus on a particular thing. As for training, I do struggle with some aspects as usually I can't do repetition, unless I see something tangible. Just a me thing, I have learnt just to shut up these days, but it does pee me off drilling the same thing over and over. Again though, a teachers assesment (for example) of how I am doing has no interest to me, only that I am doing right technically. A opinion is just an opinion and is never unjustified, unfair or unwarrented to me. Does not mean one has to agree though, but listening is important, just have to hear the music.

 

[Xue Sheng]

@Xue Sheng, well perhaps your ex-wife is not the most objective appraisal of you? German people who I deal with I find are very deeply thoughtful.. there are many thought processes all competing I think.. I find German people very thorough for this though.. I want to know how something is done best and most efficient then I am glad to be in Germany and I know I will be also told simply and forthright.. there is far less disingenuous than I would get in London.. oh.. and the cars.. oh.. and meat haha.. Anyway I am sorry your dad passing has shaken your stoicism, will it return to you do you think? I should like very much to know how you blend with lifes flow and do not fight with it? Thank you, wishes Jxx

Jenna

How I blend and how you blend with life and do not fight it is likely not the same and I am not always successful at it. But meditation and standing practice (wuji, Zhan Zhaung) help, but it is something you need to find. Also there is something a friend of mine, who is a practicing Psychologist (PhD) once told me when it comes to dealing with anger, upset, conflict, nervousness. Try and look at it like a Scientist, analyze it, get a better understanding of the situation, realize what your standard response might be and try to respond differently, more like you would if you were studying the situation. And it is that approach that likely saved something rather important quite recently.

There is a rather Taoist response to all of this that I believe is either in the Nei-yeh, or the Tao Te Ching. I shall have to look for it and post it later

 

[EddieCyrax]

@EddieCyrax, I understand by your example exactly what you mean Eddie thank you. with out knowing, I also get a sense of the gravity of those life experiences I imagine you are alluding to.. Thank you for sharing and I respect that and also respect the courage it take to be honest over ones fear –maybe it is more a male thing.. even so.. thank you! I am still curious to know though.. if you found it non beneficial to be coerced by your fear into that full defensive mode and over time became wise to that fear feeling and then forced your self to go on the attack.. Even though this has improved your effectiveness 1000 fold does it matter that the fear has not left and the implication is that the same fear is still making you dance only now to a different, more attacking tune, if you follow? Is fear useful? I mean it is some time like “hey I have no control over it.. amygdala, adrenaline..” etc etc.. I mean I wonder just because we “feel” a physical sensation can we trust our emotional reasoning that because that sensation feels real and so the fear must be proportionately bad? And I am not questioning you my friend.. I am questioning myself using your example and hoping your insight is as helpful as before.. wishes Jx

Sorry for the delay in responding, but I wanted to ensure I gave a fair answer to your questions.

Fear is a useful emotion that generally keeps us safe. Issues arise when fear cripples the mind from seeking other solutions to problems. I would say I have become friends with my fear. We better understand each other. Perhaps my attempt to respond briefly before didn't fully characterize this new found relationship. I would not say "attack" is the only option I now deploy, but rather you have to engage/do something to get out of the given situation. I now do not allow the fear inside me to limit or cripple my thoughts. If anything it has empowered me....even if the new solution is to evade. Evasion is now on my own conscience terms, not an instinctive reaction to fear.

Example. Sparring larger opponent who plays to their advantage and "bull rushes" me. They attack. This time instead of fear driving the bus into a defensive mode (human punching bag), I scream simple words in my head (internal/not audible) like "Move", "Knee", "Jab", "Run", etc. These simple words initiate action and gets me out of the fear loop. I have found simple words to be most effective as they limit the amount of brain power used for a combat situation.

This has allowed me to engage the brain and not run off emotion, at least to some degree.