harshness of training

[SJON]

I mentioned on another thread that in my 20 years in TKD it has been common to train full contact with no protective gear, in unheated premises with hard floors, a lot of very tough, spartan stuff, etc. etc.

Do you think there is still a market for this kind of training in your country? Or do people who want this dismiss TKD and go straight to Kyokushin, Muay Thai or MMA?

Also, what degree of "harshness" is now acceptable for kids? By way of example, when I was at school in the '80's, compulsory "games day" (one afternoon a week) consisted in winter either of rugby or cross-country running, both in short trousers and rugby jerseys. It didn't matter if it was raining, blowing a gale or freezing cold. The only exception was if the ground was frozen so you couldn't play rugby on it.
Now, I don't know if this is still the case in the UK, but looking back, that harshness had some of the same goals as MA training: toughness, perseverance, discipline, fitness.

What are your thoughts? Does this have its merits? Would it even be allowed nowadays?

Cheers,

Simon

 

[Rumy73]

I mentioned on another thread that in my 20 years in TKD it has been common to train full contact with no protective gear, in unheated premises with hard floors, a lot of very tough, spartan stuff, etc. etc.

Do you think there is still a market for this kind of training in your country? Or do people who want this dismiss TKD and go straight to Kyokushin, Muay Thai or MMA?

Also, what degree of "harshness" is now acceptable for kids? By way of example, when I was at school in the '80's, compulsory "games day" (one afternoon a week) consisted in winter either of rugby or cross-country running, both in short trousers and rugby jerseys. It didn't matter if it was raining, blowing a gale or freezing cold. The only exception was if the ground was frozen so you couldn't play rugby on it.
Now, I don't know if this is still the case in the UK, but looking back, that harshness had some of the same goals as MA training: toughness, perseverance, discipline, fitness.

What are your thoughts? Does this have its merits? Would it even be allowed nowadays?

Cheers,

Simon

No offense but it is macho BS. Consider the reality of injury. Even with padding, I have been injured. I have a job and family, the last thing I need is some blood sport. You know, in Thailand 24 is old for a Muay fighter. The body cannot endure that punishment. Those guys shave years off their lives. As far as training outside, I do! But I am sensible about it. I am aware of my surroundings, of the heat and hydrating. When I work with my son or other kids, I am very strict about wsterbreaks. If you want army ranger training, go enlist.

 

[Carol]

Training full contact with no protective gear means you are either breaking people regularly or your best strikes don't hit hard enough to break people -- neither is particularly good for a martial arts setting.

The spartan approach is part of the appeal of Crossfit, but I don't think think the bigger attraction is due to its results, the sense of community with other Crossfitters, and its spartan exercises being easier to reproduce at home, with minimal investments in gear and space.

I see frequently people on the mountain where I volunteer that are not prepared for their trek. They don't wear the right shoes, they don't bring enough water, they don't carry the proper gear. It doesn't make them better hikers, nor does it make them fitter. Providing they do get back safely, they are worn out and frustrated after a rough day on the mountain...that doesn't encourage them to keep at it.

Generally hikers and backpackers challenge themselves to find that sweet spot to where they are pushing their body and reaching for a new goal, but not to the point where you can't make it back home in one piece. I think martial arts training in general can (and does) benefit from a similar philosophy.

 

[Gorilla]

We do a lot of sparing but we pad up a lot to prevent injury!!!! We train in a dojo with out air conditioning most of the time....remember we live in Las Vegas!!!! We also train at altitude!!!!

we always take precaution not to dehydrate or injure ourselves!!!

we believe in difficult and challenging training in a harsh enviroment but don't take stupid risks

 

[terrylamar]

Each one of us should search out a training environment that makes us comfortable. Comfortable, that is with the training methods. There is a Marine Corps saying, "The more you sweat in peacetime, the less you bleed in war!" Yes, I come from a military background, so many of my ideas are influenced by my military training. Remember, the martial, in martial arts, comes from the word military.

I don't go for hurting each other. Once you are hurt, you ability to train is curtailed. What I do like, is hard corps in any environment. You will gain mental toughness. There is a benefit to being pushed to your limits. Most of us will move that limit down the road a bit, if we never hit out limit, we will never expand it.

While I will encourage you to work harder, I won't to it to the point of discouraging you from attending more classes or injury, understand there is always some risk of injury in a contact activity.

This would not be a switch and bait school, you would be given the information, up front, of what you are getting into, you still may not know until you have participated in a few classes.

These are not classes designed for children.

 

[Takai]

We do a lot of sparing but we pad up a lot to prevent injury!!!! We train in a dojo with out air conditioning most of the time....remember we live in Las Vegas!!!! We also train at altitude!!!!

we always take precaution not to dehydrate or injure ourselves!!!

we believe in difficult and challenging training in a harsh enviroment but don't take stupid risks

Some people cross the fine line between pushing it and just plain stupidity because they just seem to have a disconnect from reality . Whether they have watched to many Rambo movies or just overloaded on old Chinese MA flicks. The feeling of invincibility is sometimes stupefying to watch.

 

[SJON]

I do love a good knee-jerk reaction to 5 words in the first sentence of a longer post.

OK, I should have been more specific and phrased that as follows:

In my experience in the UK and Spain during the 1990’s and early 2000’s it was common practice to do regular Olympic-style TKD sparring wearing just groin protectors (and doboks too, I must say – I wouldn’t want anyone to suddenly seize on a new “nude sparring” angle) with hard contact to the body and light contact to the head. Full padded sparring was very occasional and was heavy contact under Olympic rules.

How about that?

Notice that I did not say that I thought this was a good or a bad idea (I actually think moderate contact sparring with head guards but no hogu is ideal for most people, and full gear and full contact for tournament preparation). Neither did I say that this hard sparring was under my instruction (it wasn’t).

I will say that in my whole time in TKD, working white-collar jobs and playing the guitar for the duration, the only injuries I’ve had apart from bruised shins, forearms and ribs are: broken foot (twice, don’t recall if it was while wearing pads or not, but WTF rules didn’t allow instep pads anyway); concussion (wearing head guard); cracked rib (wearing hogu); broken nose (not sustained during sparring but by walking into a pulled punch in self-defence pairwork).

Macho BS? Hardly. I’m simply describing a reality that existed across several MA’s at a particular time. It wasn’t of my making. It just was. Try telling that to Kyokushin or Enshin guys who train hard into and beyond middle age. Are you sure you’re not just subconsciously perceiving me to have said “you guys train soft, I train hard, so I am supercool” (I didn’t say or imply anything of the sort) and having a kind of inverse macho reaction of your own?

Stupid risks? Don’t think so either. There was a lot of concentration and respect involved. Bumps and bruises, sure. You learn a lot from them.

The point of my post, which seems to have been missed, was to ask to what extent you consider a certain degree of harshness and discomfort in training to be beneficial, and what is tolerated or allowed in your countries. I drew a parallel with the kind of physical education that was the norm for school kids in the 1980’s in the UK.

Would anyone like to comment on this, or are you just going to start off again on how bad an idea it is to spar without gear?

Cheers,

Simon

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I would not join the club. My reasoning is not the "toughness" of training per se, but the risk of injury.

However, if the training were tough in terms of cardio tempo, I'd be interested.

Running in shorts in the cold wouldn't be for me either, as my knees would be sore and not worth the cardio gain. I do jog in winter, but I have to make sure my knees stay warm.

 

[terrylamar]

I do love a good knee-jerk reaction to 5 words in the first sentence of a longer post.

OK, I should have been more specific and phrased that as follows:

In my experience in the UK and Spain during the 1990’s and early 2000’s it was common practice to do regular Olympic-style TKD sparring wearing just groin protectors (and doboks too, I must say – I wouldn’t want anyone to suddenly seize on a new “nude sparring” angle) with hard contact to the body and light contact to the head. Full padded sparring was very occasional and was heavy contact under Olympic rules.

How about that?

Notice that I did not say that I thought this was a good or a bad idea (I actually think moderate contact sparring with head guards but no hogu is ideal for most people, and full gear and full contact for tournament preparation). Neither did I say that this hard sparring was under my instruction (it wasn’t).

I will say that in my whole time in TKD, working white-collar jobs and playing the guitar for the duration, the only injuries I’ve had apart from bruised shins, forearms and ribs are: broken foot (twice, don’t recall if it was while wearing pads or not, but WTF rules didn’t allow instep pads anyway); concussion (wearing head guard); cracked rib (wearing hogu); broken nose (not sustained during sparring but by walking into a pulled punch in self-defence pairwork).

Macho BS? Hardly. I’m simply describing a reality that existed across several MA’s at a particular time. It wasn’t of my making. It just was. Try telling that to Kyokushin or Enshin guys who train hard into and beyond middle age. Are you sure you’re not just subconsciously perceiving me to have said “you guys train soft, I train hard, so I am supercool” (I didn’t say or imply anything of the sort) and having a kind of inverse macho reaction of your own?

Stupid risks? Don’t think so either. There was a lot of concentration and respect involved. Bumps and bruises, sure. You learn a lot from them.

The point of my post, which seems to have been missed, was to ask to what extent you consider a certain degree of harshness and discomfort in training to be beneficial, and what is tolerated or allowed in your countries. I drew a parallel with the kind of physical education that was the norm for school kids in the 1980’s in the UK.

Would anyone like to comment on this, or are you just going to start off again on how bad an idea it is to spar without gear?

Cheers,

Simon

Yes, I understood you perfectly.

The first martial art I spent and extended time in was Goju Ryu while I was stationed at the Embassy in Tegucigalpa, Honduras. I was a Marine and was used to hard training, but I have to say that school kicked my rear end. I would attend at least four hours per day. It was a primitive school, no AC, no heat, tile floor. I had to bring my own water so I wouldn't get sick. I broke my fingers, wrist, toe, chest, tailbone and sprung every toe and finger multiple times. I had a cast on my foot up to my knee. I still attended every class. I wouldn't attend, or I should say I would be a lot more careful about protecting myself. Personally, I don't see the benefit of training with any half measures. Don't get all up in arms, I am not criticizing anyone. Train the way you want.

 

[SJON]

Hi Terry. I cross-posted with your first post, so mine was not a reference to yours, which I thought was a good one.

Dan, I'm not suggesting taking the class out in shorts in winter for a warm-up run. I gave that as an example of "harsh" training that schoolkids underwent at a particular time, not part of MA training, the point being that it developed a certain toughness, self-discipline and tenacity.

Cheers,

Simon

 

[Mauthos]

I remember when I first started training that it was indeed in a hall with no mats and the sparring was just gi with no pads. All throws were done to the hard wood floor and you learnt to break fall pretty quickly to prevent it from hurting and from obtaining any injuries. However, I never saw this as a 'hard' or harsh way of training, it was just the way it was and nearly all clubs around were the same.

I think it came from the fact that martial arts were not that popular then and obtaining the kit you needed was difficult and expensive so most didn't bother and a lot of guys didn't know any better.

Now pretty much all the clubs I attend and teach at have decent sets of mats for grappling and throwing etc and nearly all students have proper protective gear and if they do not have it then the sparring is moderated to ensure injury doesn't occur. ALthough in the club I teach and one I attend we only wear groin guards, gloves and shin and feet pads. For some reason we have never worn head guards, just the way it has always been. Although I must stress that the kids training have to wear head guards and the club does have spares to lend out if they do not own their own.

 

[Cyriacus]

Eh, depends what you want. I dont think its necessary unless the 'harshness' is specifically what you want.

 

[StudentCarl]

It depends on where you are in your journey. For training kids, the answer is safety first because they are still developing. With adolescents, safety is still first because not only are they gaining power but they are not fully grown. The years after you leave home are the time to live on the edge, and there is no substitute if you want to learn about yourself. Once you hit those family years and have to make it back to work, safety is again first. There are times to go all out, but never train recklessly. Train hard, but train smart. Being reckless means taking unnecessary safety risks.

From the perspective of an instructor, you need reasonable limits or your insurance with drop you or just refuse your claim. If you break your people too much, who will you train? If someone gets a serious injury and can't make it to work because you allowed a drill to go too far, how will you answer the lawsuit?

There is great value in training hard, but recklessness has no place. The answer to the Ranger School reference above is that elite military units have ZERO tolerance for recklessness; it just gets people injured or killed. Train to be so able that you are never in a desperate situation with no good options, but if your training cripples you then you defeat yourself.


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