Hapkido schools a dying breed?

gpseymour

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vince1

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Why would it be different for anybody else? I had no theoretical knowledge of anything.. I just didn't comply. And like I said he tried all manner of things. It didn't distract me one bit to give in. Had he tried all that in a real confrontation... gosh, He would have been perceptible to quite a number of counters when he's scratching his head why the joint manipulation doesn't work.

Do you have video footage of this that you could share with us?
 

vince1

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We have at least 5 Hapkido schools in my part of the country. Some of the TaeKwonDo schools in my area have even reached out to my Aikijuijitsu teacher for student instruction. I have a friend who teaches Hapkido a few hours away from my home as part of his TaeKwonDo school. Some of his technique are definitely not as good as an Aikijuijitsu practioner.
 

skribs

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I wrote that you cannot compare the limb connection a BJJ person makes to the joint manipulators in TMA. And yes, it is vastly different in terms of how the body is integrated.

This goes over very well key differences. I really suggest you watch it.


Except when I'm doing that V-Lock, I'll do a lot more than just stand there and twist his wrist.

I'm using my feet to put me into a position with good leverage. When I twist his arm, I push my bicep into his elbow in order to apply extra pressure. If he shifts his weight and turns into the lock to loosen it, I'll change direction and go with that energy to straighten his arm out. Typically they'll resist again by pulling their arm back in, which sets me up perfect for a Figure-4.

I can do this, because I've trained for years to apply the techniques correctly, and how to read my opponent's resistance to the technique so I can adjust what I'm doing based on their resistance.

This is all from my Hapkido training. We learn the basic technique (what the aikido guy does in the video), how to make it work (what the BJJ guy is doing), and what to do when it fails. Unfortunately this process typically doesn't make it to Youtube.

Students at my school are pretty stubborn about going down and when to tap out. So you learn how to make the techniques actually work.
 

drop bear

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Maybe there's a difference between "the instructor failed to apply it", and "the laws of physiology prevent it from working.

But I'll give you four more years to figure that out again.

The thing is there are not many people who can make wrist locks work. And I mean people who are really dangerous with them.

But there are a lot of people who say they can.

I think for people to be wrist lock guys they really have to be able to do them consistently live and on command. And so we should be able to see a video of it somewhere.

Basically like a Danaher guy saying he can do a leg lock. It comes from them leg locking everyone. Then you are a leg lock guy.


If people are going to be these wrist lock guys they have to go out and wrist lock people.
 

gpseymour

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The thing is there are not many people who can make wrist locks work. And I mean people who are really dangerous with them.

But there are a lot of people who say they can.

I think for people to be wrist lock guys they really have to be able to do them consistently live and on command. And so we should be able to see a video of it somewhere.

Basically like a Danaher guy saying he can do a leg lock. It comes from them leg locking everyone. Then you are a leg lock guy.


If people are going to be these wrist lock guys they have to go out and wrist lock people.
I think the reality of wrist locks is that it takes a really high skill level to do them on command (with someone resisting , who knows what they’re doing). For most folks, the skill to develop is recognizing when the wrist lock becomes available. That makes them reliable when you go for them, though that’s not going to be as often as other moves.
 

skribs

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The thing is there are not many people who can make wrist locks work. And I mean people who are really dangerous with them.

But there are a lot of people who say they can.

I think for people to be wrist lock guys they really have to be able to do them consistently live and on command. And so we should be able to see a video of it somewhere.

Basically like a Danaher guy saying he can do a leg lock. It comes from them leg locking everyone. Then you are a leg lock guy.


If people are going to be these wrist lock guys they have to go out and wrist lock people.

I think another big part of the problem is that most techniques fail. This applies to all martial arts. Most techniques you use in a fight will fail. How many punches does a boxer miss? How many punches does a boxer land that don't KO the opponent? How many take-downs does a wrestler get sprawled on? How many times does a wrestler take someone down and not pin them? How many submission attempts are abandoned in a BJJ match because the opponent was able to defend it?

Wristlocks are the same. If I'm going for a V-Lock, I assume there's about a 20% chance I will take them down with the V-Lock. They may try and pull against it, in which case I'll change direction and go for an armbar takedown. They may use their footwork to "unwind" the lock, in which case I'll follow through and pull their elbow down on my shoulder. In both cases, there's other ways they may resist, and I have techniques I will transition into. So my V-Lock may fail, but I may end up with a shoulder lock, a figure-4, a chicken wing, or a hip toss. All that started from the V-Lock.
 

Gweilo

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@Alan Smithee The reason most are unsuccesful in locks etc is they do not understand fulcrum points, and if you come up against someone who is very good at them, the 1st you will know about it, is when the immense pressure is put on the relevant part of the body. Someone very good at locks, throws, takedowns etc knows how to get into a position, or manipulate their opponent into a favouarable position. The fulcrum point is the point at which there is no return, knowing where this point is of a technique becomes 2nd nature, you could compare it to a competant adult deciding if they can cross the road safely before the approaching vehicle reaches them.
Before I go any further, yes I used to train in Hapkido, I attained 3rd Dan (I still practise a lot of the techniques and blend them in with my current and previous arts), it is hinted that you did train Aikido for 4 years, so you would have been a novice, and had a vague understanding of its techniques, and this is evident in your comment about the teacher trying to apply a lock, and you found it embarressing because you stopped him from applying it. The reason techniques are applied with a compliance in class is, A: the attacker can feel what its like when the technique is applied correctly, B: the receiver can feel what its like when the technique is applied correctly, only then can the student start to understand bio mechanics and fulcrum points, then you can start resistance training.
Even a novice at locks etc will know, if you are trying to apply a wrist lock for example, and its not happening because your opponent has put strength/tension in the wrist, their mind is in their wrist, so revert to a good old smack in the face, throat, plums, etc. It amazes me why people think, someone who practices an art form, that uses a lot of locks etc, are one dimensional fighters. I am in the US, september this year, if you would like a demonstration/play/spar or fulcrum points explained, I would be happy to oblige, or of course if you are in the UK, near Bath, you are welcome to come and have a play.
 

drop bear

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I think another big part of the problem is that most techniques fail. This applies to all martial arts. Most techniques you use in a fight will fail. How many punches does a boxer miss? How many punches does a boxer land that don't KO the opponent? How many take-downs does a wrestler get sprawled on? How many times does a wrestler take someone down and not pin them? How many submission attempts are abandoned in a BJJ match because the opponent was able to defend it?

Wristlocks are the same. If I'm going for a V-Lock, I assume there's about a 20% chance I will take them down with the V-Lock. They may try and pull against it, in which case I'll change direction and go for an armbar takedown. They may use their footwork to "unwind" the lock, in which case I'll follow through and pull their elbow down on my shoulder. In both cases, there's other ways they may resist, and I have techniques I will transition into. So my V-Lock may fail, but I may end up with a shoulder lock, a figure-4, a chicken wing, or a hip toss. All that started from the V-Lock.

That was the point of using the Danaher guy. In that they are pretty successful with them.

Successful enough that people paid attention even though it fell outside a lot of accepted belief.
 

drop bear

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@Alan Smithee The reason most are unsuccesful in locks etc is they do not understand fulcrum points, and if you come up against someone who is very good at them, the 1st you will know about it, is when the immense pressure is put on the relevant part of the body. Someone very good at locks, throws, takedowns etc knows how to get into a position, or manipulate their opponent into a favouarable position. The fulcrum point is the point at which there is no return, knowing where this point is of a technique becomes 2nd nature, you could compare it to a competant adult deciding if they can cross the road safely before the approaching vehicle reaches them.
Before I go any further, yes I used to train in Hapkido, I attained 3rd Dan (I still practise a lot of the techniques and blend them in with my current and previous arts), it is hinted that you did train Aikido for 4 years, so you would have been a novice, and had a vague understanding of its techniques, and this is evident in your comment about the teacher trying to apply a lock, and you found it embarressing because you stopped him from applying it. The reason techniques are applied with a compliance in class is, A: the attacker can feel what its like when the technique is applied correctly, B: the receiver can feel what its like when the technique is applied correctly, only then can the student start to understand bio mechanics and fulcrum points, then you can start resistance training.
Even a novice at locks etc will know, if you are trying to apply a wrist lock for example, and its not happening because your opponent has put strength/tension in the wrist, their mind is in their wrist, so revert to a good old smack in the face, throat, plums, etc. It amazes me why people think, someone who practices an art form, that uses a lot of locks etc, are one dimensional fighters. I am in the US, september this year, if you would like a demonstration/play/spar or fulcrum points explained, I would be happy to oblige, or of course if you are in the UK, near Bath, you are welcome to come and have a play.

No. It is because you can either generally defend them or attack with something else that works better. Like punching.

And so to get them on you have to be really slick at them. And most people don't bother because they could be really slick at something high percentage instead.
 

Gweilo

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No. It is because you can either generally defend them or attack with something else that works better. Like punching.

And so to get them on you have to be really slick at them. And most people don't bother because they could be really slick at something high percentage instead.

Yes, Im not saying its easy, but this just goes to show peoples misunderstanging of Hapkido and its techniques, it has techniques to deal with an aggressive attack, from a mma style upright type, once you clinch you are playing their game, I agree Hapkido is weak in ground techniques, which is where training a grappling/wrestling art helps, but other than that, your posts reaks of not understanding. Hapkido has elements that orignate of Daito ryu, and techniques similar to Karate, tkd, judo. Going for a lock is not the game plan, its an opportunity you take if it arises, but your lack of beleif that they cannot be applied to you, is a weakness to you.
 
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