hand conditioning side effects

rickster

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I'm going to try this one more time:

Rickster, what actual experience do you have to make any comments on the validity, or even know what proper training would entail, including what the results would be? Because nothing you've posted shows the slightest piece of experience or knowledge here whatsoever. You just keep repeating your own lack of belief in hand conditioning training, even though you have no relevant experience to base that on. We've heard your stance on this, but you have yet to back it up with anything other than poorly constructed metaphors and ill-informed statements. So either provide something with some back up, or recognise that you're just not adding anything to this conversation, especially considering the forum it's in. Deal?

First off, why will I continue to post about something I have not gained experienced or knowledge of?


So, if I state I trained with;

* a Shaolin monk

* Master Pan or ___(insert well known here)

This aids in credibility.?

(My background of whom I trained with will do this, but this should not be a criteria alone)

Therefore;

This thread says "hand conditioning side effects"

Because I have trained in this long ago.

Because I have know others, including teachers also.

Because when you get to a certain old age, it will effect you.

Now, some of my family are farmers and fishermen, and they put their hands through many rigors.

Thus, many of them when they got older, had medical problems with their hands as well.

So, speaking from decades of experiences and speaking to others past their 50's whom train in this...I guess no one will ever suffer side effects?

When you continue to put the hands (or any stressed appendage) past their threshold, there will be side effects-no one should believe there will not by any sort.

Age catches up and yet the body will start to succumb to ailments.

The hands (or any stressed appendage) will suffer.

(Think of this as knees of football players)



Speaking of Master Pan, he conditioned his hands during an era of hardcore hand-to-hand strife.
In most modern societies, this is unnecessary

It is all common sense.

Many martial artists do not need to do this.

Unless you are going into a "continuous" rigorous combat situation, not of which are common street-social brawls, then your other training,

In a "polite" word to sum it up; superfluity
 
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rickster

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You're right. No-one should exercise.

What the hell are you doing here?

What the hell are you doing here?

Cool...exercise...then you ought to not be a martial artist also, because it seems like you "exercise"


Chris Parker,

Your signature/tag states With Respect

But when anyone posts in opposing views you state;

What the hell are they doing here?

^^ In accordance to your dumbfounded question;

Thereby, whenever someone has an opposing view, they are no longer a martial artist?

They no longer belong to a martial art forum?

I am here because I am a martial artist.

You should never question this if you are trying to have a debate conversation
In any debate, asking this question is obtuse.
The purpose of "anyone" being in "any" debate is clear

If I PM by background, this will have you satisfied, but it should not come to this
 
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rickster

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Exercise works your muscles.
Conditioning works your bones.

Overdoing either is not good.

Besides, the large percent of the world whom take health seriously, do not condition the bones in this fashion.
 

Cyriacus

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Overdoing either is not good.

Besides, the large percent of the world whom take health seriously, do not condition the bones in this fashion.
Overdoing either is bad indeed.

Ill leave the other angle to Chris though :)
 

Chris Parker

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Right, my internet seems to be stable enough to start to get back to things...

First off, why will I continue to post about something I have not gained experienced or knowledge of?

Yeah, that was the basic question... with a subtle distinction based on the way you've been posting.

So, if I state I trained with;

* a Shaolin monk

* Master Pan or ___(insert well known here)

This aids in credibility.?

Right. You seem to have missed why you were being asked what your background is. Namely that you showed basically no understanding of what is involved in hand conditioning, gave no evidence of any of your arguments, and just repeated over and over that hand conditioning was bad for you (without backing it up at all). As a result, I was looking for any form of backup to your claims, whether in the form of you actually having experience, or not, otherwise there was no reason for anyone to listen to your comments.

(My background of whom I trained with will do this, but this should not be a criteria alone)

Therefore;

This thread says "hand conditioning side effects"

Because I have trained in this long ago.

Right, that's better. Are you saying here that you have undergone hand conditioning training? That would provide some credibility and support to what you've been saying, although I have yet to see any actual support for your comments outside of poorly conducted and lead training.

Because I have know others, including teachers also.

Because when you get to a certain old age, it will effect you.

No-one has said it might not be an issue, but the thing is that, when trained properly, such issues are minimised to the point of being non-existant. The thing has been that you have repeated this claim, but offered nothing at all to support it. That's why you're being questioned.

Now, some of my family are farmers and fishermen, and they put their hands through many rigors.

Thus, many of them when they got older, had medical problems with their hands as well.

So, speaking from decades of experiences and speaking to others past their 50's whom train in this...I guess no one will ever suffer side effects?

And? That's really not the same thing at all, you realize.

When you continue to put the hands (or any stressed appendage) past their threshold, there will be side effects-no one should believe there will not by any sort.

Yes. One of the main ones (again, when conducted properly) is that they are strengthened. Hence the entire concept of hand conditioning...

Age catches up and yet the body will start to succumb to ailments.

The hands (or any stressed appendage) will suffer.

(Think of this as knees of football players)

Again, really not the same thing at all.

Speaking of Master Pan, he conditioned his hands during an era of hardcore hand-to-hand strife.
In most modern societies, this is unnecessary

Sure. Takamatsu (in the Ninjutsu circles) said the same thing. That doesn't mean, however, that hand conditioning is inherently bad for your hands, just that extreme forms of it are. Again, when it's done properly...

It is all common sense.

Many martial artists do not need to do this.

But many do, as part and parcel of the specific art that they're training in. Just because you don't like it, you don't value it, and so on, doesn't mean that anyone who does value it is wasting their time. Especially when we're talking about arts (traditional Chinese systems) that have conditioning as a core practice in their art, for a variety of reasons.

Unless you are going into a "continuous" rigorous combat situation, not of which are common street-social brawls, then your other training,

Er, do you mean to have the word "is" here?

In a "polite" word to sum it up; superfluity

Only according to your value system. And that's the thing you have failed to grasp, which is why I've asked what basis you've had for your comments.

Exercise is one thing. Conditioning the hands is another.

You are playing semantics

No, I'm not. Exercise works by slightly traumatizing your body, forcing it to respond and grow stronger. It's the basic principle behind weight lifting (stress and slightly damage the muscles so they repair themselves stronger, which is why it's said that the growth [of muscle] happens on your rest days, not the workout days). It's the same idea with hand conditioning.

What the hell are you doing here?

Cool...exercise...then you ought to not be a martial artist also, because it seems like you "exercise"

Way to miss the point, Rickster....

Chris Parker,

Your signature/tag states “With Respect”

But when anyone posts in opposing views you state;

“What the hell are they doing here?”

No, when someone constantly repeats the same ill-informed statements, taking no account of the counter arguments, ignoring any requests for where such ideas came from, with no evidence of any background that is relevant to the topic at hand, repeating ad nauseum yet supplying no evidence, seemingly only to disrupt the discussion, and certainly not adding anything to it, that's when I ask what the hell they're doing in a particular thread. Case in point: you here.

^^ In accordance to your dumbfounded question;

"Dumbfounded" question? I don't think you quite get what that word means...

Thereby, whenever someone has an opposing view, they are no longer a martial artist?

They no longer belong to a martial art forum?

I am here because I am a martial artist.

No, Rickster. When someone acts the way you have, as detailed above, then I question what value they think they are adding to the thread. I'm not talking about the forum in general, but this specific thread.

You should never question this if you are trying to have a debate conversation
In any debate, asking this question is obtuse.
The purpose of "anyone" being in "any" debate is clear

You're kidding, yeah? If this was a debate about car racing, and the best ways to switch gears quickly, the benefits of heel-toe braking etc, and someone was saying that you should drive an automatic, and always use the same foot for the brake and accelerator, asking them how much racing they've done would be highly pertinent, as such comments show that there is a lack of experience. Questioning the background of participants is a perfectly valid aspect of debate. If you can't handle it, perhaps you need to look at what debate is really about.

If I PM by background, this will have you satisfied, but it should not come to this

And it wouldn't, if you had anything substantial that supported the comments you made.
 

Sanke

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Sure do.

Sometimes others do not and take it out of context only referencing the first "word-part"

Actually, it still doesn't make sense. By my understanding, one can be dumbfounded by a question, but the question itself cannot be.

Also I'd like to second Chris's questions about your background, because what you're saying doesn't seem to ad up for me. Have you had some negative experience with hand/other body conditioning, and what were the circumstances?
Myself, I've gone through conditioning programs serval times, once for hands others the whole body, and so far it's had quite positive results. I'd be curious to hear your experiences with this.


Sanke on the move.
 

Highlander

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Be sure that the wall bag has plenty of give, make it where its not on the wall dircty, as this can cause the impact of the punch to come back to you're heart. Only punch two or three days of the week as well
 

Chris Parker

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Yep.And this is a froum :)

"Froum"?

Sure do.

Sometimes others do not and take it out of context only referencing the first "word-part"

Uh, you may want to try again there. To "dumbfound" is to perplex, or confound, the term very much meaning "a source (founding) of being struck dumb (mute)"... so a "dumbfounded question" is just plain odd. A question that is confounded? A question that is struck dumb? A question that is perplexed? Uh... nope. As you then continue with your answer (missing what was being asked in the first place, and why it was being asked), it was perhaps a dumbfounding question... your answers certain manage to dumbfound at times as well... but no, "dumbfounded question" is just wrong.

Oh, but did you want to address, I don't know, anything else that you've been asked?
 

Xue Sheng

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Iron Palm

Iron Palm is a broad term covering many different conditioning methods. Some Iron Palm systems are considered internal and others are purely external in training methods. Martial artists who practice Iron Palm training are not unified in their training and techniques. Some teachers treat their Iron Palm methodology as a valuable secret, and only share their specific techniques, training methods, and herbal remedies with a select few.

Iron Palm is not a martial arts style unto itself, but a type of conditioning featured in many schools of Chinese martial arts. Some non-Chinese martial arts styles, such as Muay Thai and many schools of Karate, also feature hand conditioning; however, the term "Iron Palm" is not normally used to describe these types of training.

From Kung Fu Magazine Forum

WING LAM KUNG FU FEDERATION - Chinese Iron Palm - Part One
 

Master Dan

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With all due respect to the young we are in a civilized society now and we have options of effecting striking and other combative defenses with out the long term effects of abusing ones various areas of the body that will take its toll in time. reasonable training so that you have balance and control of your body and that of your oponent should be a journey of health and building up ones overall ability and longevity something that is greatly ignored in the warrior gloring seeking ego of the hormonal young.

I listenened to young men bragging about Kazuki fighting we had here over a decade ago no pads full contact and it was said it was enough to survive the match not win and Pain is your friend completely missing the use of Pain as an instruction tool in learning both the effect on your self and implied intent to another as in manipulation one must share that in a controled way to actually become proficient and grow in knowledge with the master sharing in the pain to know if it is being applied properly and the student trusting the master not to be a sadist just enjoying abusing the student.

I laugh at past thier prime women bragging about kicking the crap out of each other at some of our national seminars in thier youth training and now over weight becasue they are too crippled to do cardio enough to push thier posterior ends away from the table becasue they have a multitude of injuries from that abuse. A person should be able to defend themselves if they loose the use of one hand then one foot to utilize all portions of the body and what ever is laying around if needed but better yet not be there in the first place.

Mas used to puch trees to kill them by removing all the bark then move on to the next he had tremendous power but at what cost and many who followed in this concept had extreme problems with thier hands in later years. Longevity being able to do anything you want when you are 70-90 with your family should be your goal of training and conditioning I only need on finger to kill so does any 7 year old whats to brag about that I have yet to see anyone atacked by boards or bricks in an alley yet but given the use of bath salts that may be changing?
 

rickster

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Two facts;

There are consequences in conditioning

Many do not really need to do this
 

mograph

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Sounds good to me.

So we're done? There must be plenty of threads on hand conditioning out there.
 
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