Gun Disarm Questions

[Cujo]

Good answer on the home invasion question Sgtmac. As far as gun disarms, I have seen alot of differant moves taught. The ones that I teach vary depending on how close the person is to you, his location in ref. to your position ie. 12:00 o'clock, 6:00 o'clock etc. and where the weapon is pointed. I was first taught slapping moves, but found these to be lacking. A slapping move is great, IF it works. Now I mostly teach weapon grabs that involve moving the gun out of line with my body. An example would be grabbing the barrel of the gun with my left hand and rotating it left (if he was right handed) and grabbing the wrist with my right hand. They did teach at an earlier time to attempt to disarm or control with one hand, and draw your weapon with the other, but this has been found to be lacking shall we say. Rememeber this. Guns kill you by causing you to bleed to death or taking out a vital organ. In the movies you see people shot with a firearm and they just drop, that is a bunch of **** in general. NEVER expect that if you shoot someone, that they will just drop. Alot of cops have been killed making that assumption. They used to teach the old "double tap", draw and fire two rounds center mass. Now we teach to fire until the action that caused you to fire in the first place ceases. This is why you will see leo's firing 5 plus rounds into a subject. ANY time you shoot at someone, even once, you are stating that you have the right under law to use deadly force. 1 bullet or five, he is just as dead. Check with your local laws as they aply to your area, I am speaking of the laws that appy to my area. "better judged by 12 than carried by six."

Pax Cujo

 

[sgtmac_46]

Good answer on the home invasion question Sgtmac. As far as gun disarms, I have seen alot of differant moves taught. The ones that I teach vary depending on how close the person is to you, his location in ref. to your position ie. 12:00 o'clock, 6:00 o'clock etc. and where the weapon is pointed. I was first taught slapping moves, but found these to be lacking. A slapping move is great, IF it works. Now I mostly teach weapon grabs that involve moving the gun out of line with my body. An example would be grabbing the barrel of the gun with my left hand and rotating it left (if he was right handed) and grabbing the wrist with my right hand. They did teach at an earlier time to attempt to disarm or control with one hand, and draw your weapon with the other, but this has been found to be lacking shall we say. Rememeber this. Guns kill you by causing you to bleed to death or taking out a vital organ. In the movies you see people shot with a firearm and they just drop, that is a bunch of **** in general. NEVER expect that if you shoot someone, that they will just drop. Alot of cops have been killed making that assumption. They used to teach the old "double tap", draw and fire two rounds center mass. Now we teach to fire until the action that caused you to fire in the first place ceases. This is why you will see leo's firing 5 plus rounds into a subject. ANY time you shoot at someone, even once, you are stating that you have the right under law to use deadly force. 1 bullet or five, he is just as dead. Check with your local laws as they aply to your area, I am speaking of the laws that appy to my area. "better judged by 12 than carried by six."

Pax Cujo

I prefer having both hands on the gun. Remember, unless you compeletely remove the gun from his grasp, a struggle is going to ensue. This always applies if you are unarmed. If you are armed, the other option is to sweep the gun off line, while simultaneously drawing yours. Keep in mind, however, that you had better be able to clear leather fast, as he will be bringing his gun back on line EXTREMELY fast.

In addition, always practice BOTH moving the gun out of line of your body, and moving your body out of line of the gun, to minimize the amount of time you are in line with the barrel. Remember, keeping the barrel from interesecting your body is key. The gun is only dangerous when the barrel can be brought in line with YOU.

Also, never underestimate hitting the magazing release on a semi-automatic handgun. On some semi-autos, Smith and Wesson's come to mind, removing the magazine will make the gun inoperable, and will prevent the operator from discharging the round in the chamber.

At the very least, however, it will reduce the number of rounds available to the operator to just 1. If that discharges, the firearm is empty. Also, grabbing the slide of the firearm and holding it tight will cause it to only fire one round, and will prevent it from cycling.

On double action revolvers, you can prevent the gun from firing by grabbing the cylinder and preventing it from turning. If the cylinder won't turn, the operator will not able to actuate the double action trigger, and it will not fire. Caveat, this does not apply on a single action revolver where the hammer has been pulled back or a double action in the same position. However, understanding this principle can prevent a follow up shot even if the gun started in that same position.

I am familiar with an incident where a struggle ensued over a gun, and the defender placed his thumb between the hammer of the revolver and the firing pin. This prevented the firearm from discharging while he managed to remove the gun from the grasp of the operator. The struggle was prosecuted in an extremely violent manner by the defender, which is how you will have to do it. (He removed the gun from the would-be shooters grasp, then preceeded to grab him by the hair of the head and ram the back of his head in to an exposed nail sticking out of the wall...not fatal, but very painful). There was a lot of biting and clawing in this struggle, which is what you should expect.

Also, long guns are much more powerful, but much easier to disarm at close range. If you can get your body past the barrel, you can tie the firearm up so that it is useless against you. Practice this with a broom or long stick. Once you have moved your body toward the operator, past the barrell, you can practice levering the long-gun out of the operators hands.

 

[MJS]

In addition, always practice BOTH moving the gun out of line of your body, and moving your body out of line of the gun, to minimize the amount of time you are in line with the barrel. Remember, keeping the barrel from interesecting your body is key. The gun is only dangerous when the barrel can be brought in line with YOU.

Thoughts on the best method of redirecting the gun? I've heard mixed views, with some saying it's best to begin your redirect to the inside of their weapon hand rather than the outside.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Thoughts on the best method of redirecting the gun? I've heard mixed views, with some saying it's best to begin your redirect to the inside of their weapon hand rather than the outside.

I would think that whichever way you do it at the time is best.

All thought of inside-outside probably goes out the window when you really have to do it but I do see your question as a training issue.

 

[MJS]

I would think that whichever way you do it at the time is best.

All thought of inside-outside probably goes out the window when you really have to do it but I do see your question as a training issue.

Thats true. I was just thinking back to a disarm tape that I watched quite a while ago. The guys were stressing the importance of going to the inside. Then again, looking at the KM disarms, they're going to the outside.

Mike

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I think that going to the inside takes advantage of the weakness of the wrist in that direstion. The hand opens easier that way but you have to go across your body unless you are moving to the outside at the same time.

Going to the outside takes advantage of the finger break on the trigger guard.

 

[Cujo]

There are disarms both to the inside and to the outside. As mentioned by Blotan Hunka, going to the inside takes advantage of the easier "wrist break". Sgtmac advocates the use of a two-handed grab to the weapon and this can also have some advantages, however, in the disarm that I mentioned before, I still maintain that one hand on the weapon and one to the weaponhand wrist, is a legitimate technique, especially if you are attempting to break the weapon grip in an upward or downward motion. This is a disarm not previously discussed, I believe, but one that is taught regularly police dt classes. Get a training weapon and try several techniques and see which you are comfortable with.
I don't recommend attempting to sweep the weapon aside and then drawing your own weapon. Why? because this is a gunfight at say, 1 to 2 feet! you cannot count on shooting someone and having them go down right away. In the mean time he is going to be attempting do return the favor.
Finally, with all respect to sgtmac, I would never advise you to attempt to dislodge the magazine of a weapon that you are fighting to control. Unless you are very familiar with firearms, you are not going to have the presence of mind, or probibly the knowledge to attempt this move. The magazine release is located in a differant location on many weapons, even weapons from the same company. By all means, if while you are fighting for control of the weapon, you do hit the mag release, great, but to attempt it as a technique, I wouldn't go there.

Pax
Cujo

 

[Shaolinwind]

In most self defense systems there are a lot of gun (pistol) disarms.

firstly how practical are they? If a pistol is fired whilst holding the barrel of the gun, how hot does it get (will it be too hot to hold?), What about the shell case being discharged from the weapon after firing (again hot and flying out possibly the angle you are standing at.
how quickly will the person holding the gun be able to pull the trigger against your deflection/move/technique.

I saw a clip of a hold up in a store, the guy behind the counter had no money in the till and so the guy with the gun shot him 3 times.......looking at the clip it would have been possible in the first few seconds to apply a side disarm, even if it hadnt worked properly it could have prevented him from being shot 3 or 4 times (after all he was shot anyway)

The clip is on this site
http://www.comegetyousome.com/fight_videos_home.htm
Potential Violent content -Mature viewing Warning
along with a load of other fight clips

As with every time I need a diversion I would shout "LOOK!! It's the Oscar Meijer Weinermobile!!!" Works everytime, because everyone loves Oscar Meyer Weiners.

Then of course you break his spine.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Thoughts on the best method of redirecting the gun? I've heard mixed views, with some saying it's best to begin your redirect to the inside of their weapon hand rather than the outside.

My preference is to the inside of the gun hand, in other words move the gun hand toward the center line. This moves the trigger away from the trigger finger, and it makes it harder to actuate the trigger, both intentionally and accidentally.

Outside sweeps tend to move toward the finger, and make discharge, accidentally or intentional, easier. Practice this, and you'll find it to be true.

That having been said, there are many views on this. This just happens to be mine.

 

[sgtmac_46]

There are disarms both to the inside and to the outside. As mentioned by Blotan Hunka, going to the inside takes advantage of the easier "wrist break". Sgtmac advocates the use of a two-handed grab to the weapon and this can also have some advantages, however, in the disarm that I mentioned before, I still maintain that one hand on the weapon and one to the weaponhand wrist, is a legitimate technique, especially if you are attempting to break the weapon grip in an upward or downward motion. This is a disarm not previously discussed, I believe, but one that is taught regularly police dt classes. Get a training weapon and try several techniques and see which you are comfortable with.
I don't recommend attempting to sweep the weapon aside and then drawing your own weapon. Why? because this is a gunfight at say, 1 to 2 feet! you cannot count on shooting someone and having them go down right away. In the mean time he is going to be attempting do return the favor.
Finally, with all respect to sgtmac, I would never advise you to attempt to dislodge the magazine of a weapon that you are fighting to control. Unless you are very familiar with firearms, you are not going to have the presence of mind, or probibly the knowledge to attempt this move. The magazine release is located in a differant location on many weapons, even weapons from the same company. By all means, if while you are fighting for control of the weapon, you do hit the mag release, great, but to attempt it as a technique, I wouldn't go there.

Pax
Cujo

That is one I practice, as i'm also a firearms instructor, and i'm familiar with a WIDE variety of firearms. You are correct, however, in that if you are not familiar with weapons, this might not be one you would necessarily want to practice...at first.

However, there are only two types of handguns, semi-automatic and revolver. They all share common characteristics, it is good to have an understanding of the general operation of those weapons, and what they all have in common.

 

[DeLamar.J]

In most self defense systems there are a lot of gun (pistol) disarms.

firstly how practical are they? If a pistol is fired whilst holding the barrel of the gun, how hot does it get (will it be too hot to hold?), What about the shell case being discharged from the weapon after firing (again hot and flying out possibly the angle you are standing at.
how quickly will the person holding the gun be able to pull the trigger against your deflection/move/technique.

I saw a clip of a hold up in a store, the guy behind the counter had no money in the till and so the guy with the gun shot him 3 times.......looking at the clip it would have been possible in the first few seconds to apply a side disarm, even if it hadnt worked properly it could have prevented him from being shot 3 or 4 times (after all he was shot anyway)

The clip is on this site
http://www.comegetyousome.com/fight_videos_home.htm
Potential Violent content -Mature viewing Warning
along with a load of other fight clips

Here is one of the best ways I have found to disarm someone(through training of course).
Move you arms and body in different directions at the same time very quickly, gun goes straight up in the air as soon as possible to avoid shooting a bystandard. Then your buddy helps wrestle the guy to the ground.
This is the only way I have found to be effective most of the time, the only drawback is you need a teammate. When I try this one on one it only goes well about 50% of the time because of all of the variations that can happen once you grab that gun and start going at it.
If you dont have a buddy who is down to help you once you grab that gun then give the robber what they want! Grabbing the gun seems to be easy for me to do, but after that, keeping control of it for longer than about 10 seconds is VERY hard.