Gun Disarm Questions

[samurai69]

In most self defense systems there are a lot of gun (pistol) disarms.

firstly how practical are they? If a pistol is fired whilst holding the barrel of the gun, how hot does it get (will it be too hot to hold?), What about the shell case being discharged from the weapon after firing (again hot and flying out possibly the angle you are standing at.
how quickly will the person holding the gun be able to pull the trigger against your deflection/move/technique.

I saw a clip of a hold up in a store, the guy behind the counter had no money in the till and so the guy with the gun shot him 3 times.......looking at the clip it would have been possible in the first few seconds to apply a side disarm, even if it hadnt worked properly it could have prevented him from being shot 3 or 4 times (after all he was shot anyway)

The clip is on this site
http://www.comegetyousome.com/fight_videos_home.htm
Potential Violent content -Mature viewing Warning
along with a load of other fight clips

 

[Drac]

In most self defense systems there are a lot of gun (pistol) disarms.

firstly how practical are they? If a pistol is fired whilst holding the barrel of the gun, how hot does it get (will it be too hot to hold?)

Yes, it will me hot but not too hot unless multiple round had been fires

What about the shell case being discharged from the weapon after firing (again hot and flying out possibly the angle you are standing at

That is always a possibility..Again I slight burn or cut from a discharged round is NOTHING compared to catching a bullet..More than once while at the range I've caught a stay casing..It ain't that bad

how quickly will the person holding the gun be able to pull the trigger against your deflection/move/technique

He/she may be able to get one round off..There is no guarantee that a technique will be 100% effective..You didn't mention muzzle flash or the sound both of which can startle you or the slide inflicting injury..Gun disarms need to be practiced regularly..I'm sure the othes will have more on this..

 

[samurai69]

You didn't mention muzzle flash or the sound both of which can startle you or the slide inflicting injury....

I was going to ask about these, but thought i would see what people had to say first


as i said, the clip i saw, it would have definately been better to attempt a disarm as he got shot 3 or 4 times anyway

 

[Drac]

Good enough..Let me apologize for the typos..Attempting to type without looking at the keyboard..Need more practice..

 

[theletch1]

One of the things to think about when doing gun disarms is how long has it been since the technique was reviewed. That is to say that I would approach a disarm against an auto a little differently than against a revolver. Many gun disarms were designed when the revolver was prevailant in society. Now the auto is the top dog and presents a few more problems to deal with. As for getting burned by the barrel or the spent casing...I doubt that in the adrenaline dump you'll feel either one. I got more than one casing down the back of my collar on the rifle range in boot camp and, yes, it hurt but then I didn't have a full on adrenal dump kicking. The slide on an auto is something else to consider. It will rip you open pretty well so constant training to avoid that particular injury is needed. The best training in the world for gun defense is the one where you reach behind you, take out your wallet and hand it over. Better to lose your money than your life. Train as often as possible, get as proficient as possible and then pray you never have to use it.

 

[MJS]

One of the things to think about when doing gun disarms is how long has it been since the technique was reviewed. That is to say that I would approach a disarm against an auto a little differently than against a revolver. Many gun disarms were designed when the revolver was prevailant in society. Now the auto is the top dog and presents a few more problems to deal with. As for getting burned by the barrel or the spent casing...I doubt that in the adrenaline dump you'll feel either one. I got more than one casing down the back of my collar on the rifle range in boot camp and, yes, it hurt but then I didn't have a full on adrenal dump kicking. The slide on an auto is something else to consider. It will rip you open pretty well so constant training to avoid that particular injury is needed. The best training in the world for gun defense is the one where you reach behind you, take out your wallet and hand it over. Better to lose your money than your life. Train as often as possible, get as proficient as possible and then pray you never have to use it.

I agree with your last statement. Fortunately, Ive never faced someone with a gun, but if that day ever came, I would most likely comply. Material items can be replaced, your life can't. However, there are cases where the victim did comply and still gets shot, so I suppose another way of looking at it is, if you feel that you're going to get shot anyway, why not attempt a defense.

As for the slide ripping your hand, if you look at Krav Maga, they regularly grab the slide during their defense. I'm not saying that it will or will not happen, just stating that this is what they do for their defense.

Mike

 

[theletch1]

If the gun discharges during the time in which you are holding the slide you WILL get cut, there's no two ways about it. However, getting your hand cut is preferably to getting shot so it may be a simple trade off during the technique. I'd like to hear what the Krav Maga guys have to say about it. I know that there were a couple of techniques that I did during a seminar a few years ago that included grabbing the slide, so, again, it may simply be a trade off during the technique.

 

[MJS]

If the gun discharges during the time in which you are holding the slide you WILL get cut, there's no two ways about it. However, getting your hand cut is preferably to getting shot so it may be a simple trade off during the technique. I'd like to hear what the Krav Maga guys have to say about it. I know that there were a couple of techniques that I did during a seminar a few years ago that included grabbing the slide, so, again, it may simply be a trade off during the technique.

Took me a while, but I came across this clip

http://www.krav-maga.hu/gunshot.wmv

I'm not saying that this is "the" way to do a disarm, but I thought it would be interesting. It would have been interesting though to see the hand.

Mike

 

[arnisador]

It's good to see an experiment like that, though I too would prefer to have seen the hand afterward to be sure. But, one test like that is worth many thought experiments!

 

[samurai69]

Definately good to see that, i would have liked to have seen his hand after too, but at least i have seen it done now

 

[Tgace]

Heres an old post of mine you may find useful.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205735&postcount=1

 

[Brad Dunne]

Most folks train to attack/grab the weapon, but my preference is to attack/grab the limb that's holding the weapon. Reasons being, 1) I'm going after a much larger target area. 2) Even if I miss or lose the grab/hold, I've given myself more room to react. (CAVEAT)*Going off center is a given here........ If I try for the weapon and miss, well you can imagine the results. If I do manage to grab the weapon, it can still be pulled from my grasp, even if I have a super good hold and now all I have is thin air. Most folks that go for the weapon, even going off centerline, do not go deep enough on an angle to make it affective to counter, if they should miss or lose the grab. Some folks may show multiple aspects for doing techniques, but in reality there are only two venues (inside & outside push/grab) that work for everybody. Plus in this case the addage less is more holds true. Now there may be some techniques out there that folks may use and because they may be physically gifted they can make them work. The rest of us would most likely get our heads shot off if we tried them though. Regardless of what you may like to do, it must be quick and practiced till it becomes second nature.

 

[MJS]

You brought up some great points Brad! I agree that any time you're faced with a weapon, control of the limb should be establish first, and then work the disarm. I would think that we would encounter some resistance on our attackers part, so if we're not careful when attempting to grab/disarm, etc., we could find ourselves in more trouble that we originally planned on.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

This is for knife disarms, but is pretty much the same for firearms in most LE training.

http://www.somersetkravmaga.co.uk/new_page_53.htm

The Jim Wagner Knife Disarm Rule



The rule to disarming a knife from an attacker has only four simple steps. The first and last rule is based on human instinct. They are:



1. Grab
2. Close
3. Take down
4. Escape



Rule One: Grab If someone tossed you a baseball or a tea cup you would instinctively catch it without even thinking about it. Likewise, you will also attempt to catch the knife hand of the attacker at extreme close range (within touching distance) to prevent the weapon from penetrating your body.

To practice the grab simply have your training partner repeatedly try to “stab or slash” you on different body targets (note: eye protection for this exercise is recommended). Each time the weapon comes at you just try to grab the knife hand with both of your hands. Don’t be frustrated if your hands do not end up in a perfect grip, because this is going to happen in real life as well. Your job is just to try to grab on the best you can.

Also, you may end up getting “injured” when you fail to grab on. However, you must always accept the fact that YOU WILL GET CUT in a real knife fight. Since your “back is against the wall” in this exercise, you have not choice but to grab onto the hand when you are able. It may take a few tries, but once you have it, do not let go. You will them immediately go into the next move.



Rule Two: Close Once you have grabbed onto the weapon hand you must immediately close the gap. You must “crowd” the attacker in order to prevent him from pulling the knife from your grasp, or allow him the space required to stab or slash.

It is true that you can cut yourself, or even possible stab yourself, but if you do not move in the attacker will do worse damage. If you are able to avoid moving right on top of the knife, at worse you will only get superficial injuries from rubbing up against the blade.

When you move in you should have your body pressed against the attacker’s body. There should be no room for him to maneuver. Because you have taken away his fighting space he will have to do one of two things: try to pull back, or try to push you off. Before he has a chance to do either you will immediately move into Rule Three.



Rule Three: Takedown Now that you have control of the knife hand, your body is pressed up against the attackers, you must now get the attacker off balance. How you do this will depend upon your body position and his.

Without ever letting go of the enemy’s hand with both of your own, use your forearms, shoulders, knees, sweeps, or whatever it takes to get the suspect to the ground. This is where your prior judo or jiu jitsu training will come in handy. However, avoid turning your back on the attacker at all cost when taking him down. To end up in a wrestling match on the ground with a knife wielding suspect will most likely end up bad.

Although I recommend a takedown to the ground, a takedown may not be possible. Therefore, the next best option would be to simply try to get the suspect off balance and take advantage and escape – which brings us to the next rule.


Rule Four: Escape



Once the suspect is off balance or is on the ground you must get away from him. Remember the golden rule in a knife fight - DISTANCE IS YOUR FRIEND. Regardless of whether you are armed with a weapon or not, you are still vulnerable to a secondary attack if you are anywhere within a 7 meter (21 feet) radius of the suspect.

Once you have distance, and you are armed, warn the suspect to stay on the ground and to drop the knife. If he refuses to comply, do not get lured into his trap and get any closer. In fact, such a refusal to submit should be a warning to you to look for even more distance to guarantee your own safety.

If, on the other hand, you were able to get away from the attacker, and you are unarmed, the best course of action is to immediately escape to a safe zone. To practice this in a training environment simply select an area and run to it after the takedown.

If escape is not possible due to circumstances, then you will have no choice but to stay and fight once you takedown the suspect. Since your opponent is still likely to possess the knife, your attack must be hard and fast guaranteeing victory. Then the weapons must be stripped from the attacker’s hand. Even if the suspect is severely wounded, or dead for that matter (police and military tactical teams are trained to take weapons from even bodies because you never know if “they will come to life&#8221, you must get the knife into your possession.

 

[Tgace]

This situation is whats known at the **** sandwich. Its last ditch and you have no other options. If you are going to be shot/stabbed anyway you look at it you have to give it a shot, if there is any other solution, take it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Having practiced disarms for several years now, aggressively and with resisting partners, i've concluded that when it comes to guns, controlling the weapon is the only answer. Techniques that involve attacking the limb result in too much freedom of movement of the gun holding hand and wrist, resulting in the ability of the point of aim of the barrel to intersect the body (that's a bad thing). The weapon should be your only concern until it is out of the hands of the attacker.

I've also been developing a series of techniques whereby the gun is brought in close proximity to your body during the disarm to increase leverage. This, at first, seems counter-intuitive as the natural response is to create distance between the gun and your body. However, in tests we've conducted, it actually makes it easier to control the barrel (the key to not getting shot). We're continuing our research.

 

[Drac]

Most folks train to attack/grab the weapon, but my preference is to attack/grab the limbquote]

Everyone has their favorites..If they have a knife I attack the limb..If they have a firearm I attack the weapon..So much more damage to the attacker if he has his finger inside the trigger guard..

 

[Drac]

This is for knife disarms, but is pretty much the same for firearms in most LE training.

http://www.somersetkravmaga.co.uk/new_page_53.htm

Good stuff there..

 

[GuruJim1]

.
As a Police Officer and 30 years Vet of the martial arts I can say this. If the person has a gun on you, give that person what they are asking for. If they don't go away after getting the object they wanted, and you feel that they are going to kill you any way, and then you have nothing to lose.

Objects such as money, cars, and etc. can be replaced, you life can not. The best thing to do is be a good witness for the police. A dead witness is not a good witness, but a live one is. Do what you can to live through that moment. It's good to practice disarms in case you may need it. However, remember if you disarm a firearm, the weapon may discharge so be prepared for the loud noise. Be aware of where the muzzle of the firearm is. Hit the person with everything you have and don't be nice, at this point it all about sudden but control violence. IT'S ALL ABOUT YOUR LIFE AND NOT A GAME. Once you engage the person you have commit yourself and you can back out of it. I hope this helps you in your understanding.

 

[sgtmac_46]

.
As a Police Officer and 30 years Vet of the martial arts I can say this. If the person has a gun on you, give that person what they are asking for. If they don't go away after getting the object they wanted, and you feel that they are going to kill you any way, and then you have nothing to lose.

Objects such as money, cars, and etc. can be replaced, you life can not. The best thing to do is be a good witness for the police. A dead witness is not a good witness, but a live one is. Do what you can to live through that moment. It's good to practice disarms in case you may need it. However, remember if you disarm a firearm, the weapon may discharge so be prepared for the loud noise. Be aware of where the muzzle of the firearm is. Hit the person with everything you have and don't be nice, at this point it all about sudden but control violence. IT'S ALL ABOUT YOUR LIFE AND NOT A GAME. Once you engage the person you have commit yourself and you can back out of it. I hope this helps you in your understanding.

I respect your advice and opinion. It is well founded and there is good support for it.

For my part, however, I feel it's a catch 22. If he's going to shoot you, he's not going to give you a warning, so there is no way of perceiving your life is going to be taken. There is usually no point where it's obvious that he is going shoot you (other than him pointing a gun at you)...at least not before you're shot.

What's more, just because he wants money, doesn't mean he's not going to shoot you anyway.

Tookie Williams, for example, ordered the convenience store clerk he shot in to the back room. Then, he shot him in the back with his shotgun. His reasoning later on as to why he shot the guy because he "didn't want to leave any witnesses."

So, at what point do we decide cooperation isn't our best best?

We used to tell passengers in airliners not to resist a hijacking for the same reason. 9/11 changed ALL our minds.

The reason most of us who are martial arts instructors tell our students not to resist, is out of fear of getting sued if they do and somehow get hurt. So we're very careful to articulate that we cautioned them against using violence unless absolutely necessary. It's just another product of our highly litigious society.

However, it is the decision of every adult, for themselves, to decide what, within the bounds of the law, is going to be their limit. I have no problem giving the law abiding citizen the tools to do that. What they do with them is their concern and business as adults.

I do find it telling, however, that the highest crime areas are the ones where we try and tell the average citizen they have to be sheep in the face of crime. In fact, in those areas we try to pass laws making it nearly impossible to justify someone defending themselves against criminals. We tell them horror stories to scare them off from defending themselves, further turning them in to defenseless sheep. We never tell them the truth...that it is not the job of the police to protect you as an individual, police have no such duty. That it is the responsibility of every free person to secure themselves and their property.

And, as a result, they eventually decide that tolerating predatory criminal behavior is just part of life. A strong and free people should not have to live that way.
I don't endorse disobeying the law, but I certainly support everyone's right to defend themselves, to the limit of the law. In some states that means you have the right to defend yourself against criminal violence, with up to and including lethal force.

In other states, that simply means you have the right to grovel for mercy at the feet of your attacker, until he either grows tired or bored, or the police show up. Legal systems in those states are loath to make a distinction between a law abiding citizen and a career criminal. In their minds, there is just one large anonymous public, and their method of 'controlling crime' is to treat everyone like a criminal.

Fortunately, things are changing. Crime, especially violent crime, has been dropping for the last 15 years. Much of that is do to better, more aggressive enforcement designed to target career criminals and put them in jail. I think in no small part, however, it's due to communities standing up and saying that they aren't going to tolerate criminal behavior anymore.

More and more states have passed concealed carry laws and more and more states have passed laws making possession of firearms by criminals serious crimes punishable by mandatory minimum long-term sentences. States like Virginia have passed laws like Project Exile that work to put violent criminals who use guns in prisons for many years. Laws like this return common sense to enforcement that distinguishes between criminals and law abiding citizens.

To quote the Dog Brothers "You are responsible for you." It's not my job to tell the public how they should respond to violence. That is for them to decide. But if they decide that they do not wish to simply passively accept violence, it is the job of martial artists to give them the tools necessary to not be a victim.