Phil_n.ireland
Yellow Belt
Can anyone recommend a good book on the history of juijitsu
If size mattered the elephant would be king of the jungle
If size mattered the elephant would be king of the jungle
Good books
- Thread starter Phil_n.ireland
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Which form of jujutsu?
OP
OP
Phil_n.ireland
Yellow Belt
I'm not too sure I'm only doing it 6 months I know its world juijitsu federation ireland that's as much as I know, this is why I'm wanting to learn where it came from e.t.c
If size mattered the elephant would be king of the jungle
If size mattered the elephant would be king of the jungle
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm, how to put this delicately...
The World JiuJitsu Federation is the organization of Robert Clark, and was created to teach his version of "jiu-jitsu"... except exactly what Robert was taught himself was not easy to find. Essentially, it's a modern, eclectic art (not actual historical Jujutsu at all), based on various striking approaches (primarily taken from Karate, as are a range of weapons), and some throws, chokes, and locks dominantly taken from early-level Judo. The structure is not akin at all to traditional Jujutsu, nor are the methodologies, for that matter.
None of this is to say that it's not good, enjoyable, fun, or anything else, just that, well, if you're after actual (Japanese, historical) Jujutsu, it ain't there.
Now, with that in mind, and understanding that anything recommended will be rather different to what you're learning, what were you wanting to read about? I'm asking in particular, rather than general, obviously.
The World JiuJitsu Federation is the organization of Robert Clark, and was created to teach his version of "jiu-jitsu"... except exactly what Robert was taught himself was not easy to find. Essentially, it's a modern, eclectic art (not actual historical Jujutsu at all), based on various striking approaches (primarily taken from Karate, as are a range of weapons), and some throws, chokes, and locks dominantly taken from early-level Judo. The structure is not akin at all to traditional Jujutsu, nor are the methodologies, for that matter.
None of this is to say that it's not good, enjoyable, fun, or anything else, just that, well, if you're after actual (Japanese, historical) Jujutsu, it ain't there.
Now, with that in mind, and understanding that anything recommended will be rather different to what you're learning, what were you wanting to read about? I'm asking in particular, rather than general, obviously.
OP
OP
Phil_n.ireland
Yellow Belt
I hear alot of criticism of Robert clarks wjjf, at the minute I don't really know much about MA altogether so I'm just going to live and learn and judge for myself, but I'm being open minded, I'm looking the history of juijitsu originally, obviously it began somewhere before it began to branch off into different denominations ,I'm interested in ancient Japan etc
OP
OP
Phil_n.ireland
Yellow Belt
Now that weir on the topic could you recommend a book showing this real Japanese juijitsu that is not taught by Robert clarks system so I can compare as I learn and see the difference for myself
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm. No, not really. While there are a range of books I could talk about, to be honest, you'd be coming from such a different approach and understanding that you wouldn't understand what you're reading. If you're interested in what makes Japanese Jujutsu (Koryu, old school systems) different, the only real way to do that is to train in them... but the next best thing is to look to videos, such as on you-tube. Here are some examples:
Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, one of the foundation schools of Judo
Takenouchi Ryu, considered to be the oldest Jujutsu-centric art in Japan, dating from the 16th Century.
Sosuishi Ryu Kumi Uchi (an alternate term, one of many used in various arts)
Hontai Yoshin Ryu, a branch of the Takagi lineage of Jujutsu arts.
Yagyu Shingan Ryu Taijutsu/Yawara (again, alternate terms used in some systems)
Conversely, here are some non-Japanese arts that use the term "jujutsu" (or other mis-spellings of the word).
Very flashy, not really practical.
Er... not sure what they think is "jujutsu" in this....
Uh... look, this is basically imitation karate.
Despite the Japanese sounding name, this isn't.
When you can piece together what the distinctions are, if you're still after some books on history, the first thing to realize is that there isn't a single "history" of Jujutsu... it developed in many different ways and directions over time, with no real single art using that name (as opposed to, say, Judo, which is really just another form of [modern] Japanese jujutsu, or Kendo)... so you can look into the histories of specific systems, but not "jujutsu" itself in the same way. For some references for various arts, though, look to the books (and website) from www.koryu.com as a great starting point. From there, books such as Serge Mol's Classical Fighting Arts of Japan are good, but flawed in a number of ways (you really need to know what you're talking about before you'll see any of the issues, though), Prof. Karl Friday's Legacies of the Sword (for a Kashima Shinryu perspective), and so on.
Conversely, here are some non-Japanese arts that use the term "jujutsu" (or other mis-spellings of the word).
When you can piece together what the distinctions are, if you're still after some books on history, the first thing to realize is that there isn't a single "history" of Jujutsu... it developed in many different ways and directions over time, with no real single art using that name (as opposed to, say, Judo, which is really just another form of [modern] Japanese jujutsu, or Kendo)... so you can look into the histories of specific systems, but not "jujutsu" itself in the same way. For some references for various arts, though, look to the books (and website) from www.koryu.com as a great starting point. From there, books such as Serge Mol's Classical Fighting Arts of Japan are good, but flawed in a number of ways (you really need to know what you're talking about before you'll see any of the issues, though), Prof. Karl Friday's Legacies of the Sword (for a Kashima Shinryu perspective), and so on.
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Phil_n.ireland
Yellow Belt
Takagi juijitsu the 4th video down looks very similar to what I see them doing at the wjjf I attend
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Cool. Believe me when I tell you that, although there are superficial similarities, that's about where it ends. Again, that's not a negative, just an observation... and the reason has nothing to do with physical/mechanical techniques.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
No. But most that aren't have roots in ones that are... for instance, Aikido and Hakko Ryu (both modern) have roots in Daito Ryu (leaving off the question of Koryu or not there for the minute...), Moto-ha Yoshin Ryu came from Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Hiko Ryu also claims Daito Ryu as a foundation, Judo comes from a range, including Kito Ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu. The Bujinkan's Budo Taijutsu is founded in a range of older arts, such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu etc. Same with the KJJR/Genbukan. The majority, though, are. Most "modern" Jujutsu systems are Western in origin, rather than Japanese.
Sojobo
Green Belt
As Chris says koryu.com is a good starting point.
The Skoss books are good, but they won't give you an overarching history - they are more about specific ryu-ha and experiences of training within them.
Perhaps look at some of lowry books as well to give you a flavour ("The Essence of Budo" and "In the Dojo"). They aren't so much historical reference books more about understanding traditional Japanese martial ways.
One of the first books I read on the subject was Draegers "Classical Bujutsu", but on reflection it’s a difficult book to fully understand unless you already have a fair bit of knowledge.
If you have shed loads of cash, you could also buy Dr David Halls "Encyclopedia of Japanese Martial Arts", but its seriously expensive and again it helps if you have a base understanding.
The vids posted by Chris were a very good cross section. The tradition I study (Sosuishi-ryu) was included and actually is descended from (or considered as a branch by some) Takenouchi-ryu.
The vid Sosuishi vid Chris showed is a very old one.
Here is one featuring my Instructor and our Tokyo based group in an Embu performed last month. See what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC8B...layer_embedded
Sojobo
The Skoss books are good, but they won't give you an overarching history - they are more about specific ryu-ha and experiences of training within them.
Perhaps look at some of lowry books as well to give you a flavour ("The Essence of Budo" and "In the Dojo"). They aren't so much historical reference books more about understanding traditional Japanese martial ways.
One of the first books I read on the subject was Draegers "Classical Bujutsu", but on reflection it’s a difficult book to fully understand unless you already have a fair bit of knowledge.
If you have shed loads of cash, you could also buy Dr David Halls "Encyclopedia of Japanese Martial Arts", but its seriously expensive and again it helps if you have a base understanding.
The vids posted by Chris were a very good cross section. The tradition I study (Sosuishi-ryu) was included and actually is descended from (or considered as a branch by some) Takenouchi-ryu.
The vid Sosuishi vid Chris showed is a very old one.
Here is one featuring my Instructor and our Tokyo based group in an Embu performed last month. See what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC8B...layer_embedded
Sojobo
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