GoDan test crossovers?

[kevie86]

If you're not sure what I'm talking about is this:

Does this test and particular type of training to enhance the senses crossover or can a similar test be found or practiced in any other martial art style besides Bujinkan; Have you seen anywhere else? If so where? I post in general, not Ninjutsu section because is question for all types martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you're not sure what I'm talking about is this:

Does this test and particular type of training to enhance the senses crossover or can a similar test be found or practiced in any other martial art style besides Bujinkan; Have you seen anywhere else? If so where? I post in general, not Ninjutsu section because is question for all types martial arts.

In my opinion, many of those being tested are not sensing anything - they are predicting the timing. You can see how many of them flinch well before any attack comes. Some seem to get it clean, and I suspect most of them are picking up a slight shuffling or rustling or change of breath, and that is theoretically useful. The problem is that we are probably not going to be attacked while we are sitting perfectly still (so our clothes aren't rustling) and no wind is blowing, and no animals are moving, and all else is silent near us. Only under those circumstances can those minor shufflings be sensed.

 

[jks9199]

This particular test is unique to the Bujinkan. The other related arts reportedly have similar testing, and you can find various opinion so of the reality and relevance. In the Bujinkan, as I understand it, Hatsumi is the sole arbiter of pass or fail. Though he has allowed a very few others to swing the shindig on occasion. I've watched several video of the test, and in them, I've seen him fail people who evaded it for, I suppose, the wrong reasons. I've seen him pass people who reacted, but didn't completely avoid the sword, too. Based on that, I have to assume there is a particular quality or character to the reaction that he watches for, rather than simply picking up on timing or sounds.

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[kevie86]

In my opinion, many of those being tested are not sensing anything - they are predicting the timing. You can see how many of them flinch well before any attack comes. Some seem to get it clean, and I suspect most of them are picking up a slight shuffling or rustling or change of breath, and that is theoretically useful. The problem is that we are probably not going to be attacked while we are sitting perfectly still (so our clothes aren't rustling) and no wind is blowing, and no animals are moving, and all else is silent near us. Only under those circumstances can those minor shufflings be sensed.

So what you are saying.. correct me if I'm wrong is no other other martial arts do advanced ESP training and possibly ESP is a myth in anything besides Ninjutsu practiced by Dr. Hatsumi and his students which would be based on calculated guesses as presented in the shown video in a controlled environment? Is there more to it, could it be done in an uncontrolled environment to make it more noticeable possibly at a firing range or with explosions or loud audible distractions such as a concert or even warzone?

 

[kevie86]

This particular test is unique to the Bujinkan. The other related arts reportedly have similar testing, and you can find various opinion so of the reality and relevance. In the Bujinkan, as I understand it, Hatsumi is the sole arbiter of pass or fail. Though he has allowed a very few others to swing the shindig on occasion. I've watched several video of the test, and in them, I've seen him fail people who evaded it for, I suppose, the wrong reasons. I've seen him pass people who reacted, but didn't completely avoid the sword, too. Based on that, I have to assume there is a particular quality or character to the reaction that he watches for, rather than simply picking up on timing or sounds.

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This is why I'd love to see it in an uncontrolled environment and believe there is more to it than just movements or sound.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is why I'd love to see it in an uncontrolled environment and believe there is more to it than just movements or sound.

Can you think of a specific experiment that could prove or disprove to you that it is real and not just based on movements or sound?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So what you are saying.. correct me if I'm wrong is no other other martial arts do advanced ESP training and possibly ESP is a myth in anything besides Ninjutsu practiced by Dr. Hatsumi and his students which would be based on calculated guesses as presented in the shown video in a controlled environment? Is there more to it, could it be done in an uncontrolled environment to make it more noticeable possibly at a firing range or with explosions or loud audible distractions such as a concert or even warzone?

There has never been any significant evidence that any extra-sensory perceptive ability exists. And that's not for lack of trying, as many tests have been conducted. Only in a few studies have there been results that were outside statistical probability, and when you lump those into the larger body of tests, they fall within the expected range of outliers.

Now, that's not to say that people can't develop unconscious responses to keys. Most of us have that (that moment when you suddenly realize something is wrong, though you weren't paying attention, is one example). That can be honed, but this particular exercise almost certainly relies upon either timing the response (which appears to be guesswork) or hearing very subtle cues that simply wouldn't be audible if there were 30 db or so of background noise (about the volume of whispered conversation).

 

[kevie86]

Can you think of a specific experiment that could prove or disprove to you that it is real and not just based on movements or sound?

Sorry for delayed response possibility of the student using headphones that isolate sound from the surroundings such as earbuds where the volume could be raised just loud enough for the instructor to hear without damaging the student's hearing. To also eliminate echolocation of speakers in an open room. A test like this test could be done in a dojo environment, also with music or sounds the student doesn't care for or has never heard before.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sorry for delayed response possibility of the student using headphones that isolate sound from the surroundings such as earbuds where the volume could be raised just loud enough for the instructor to hear without damaging the student's hearing. To also eliminate echolocation of speakers in an open room. A test like this test could be done in a dojo environment, also with music or sounds the student doesn't care for or has never heard before.

Hmm, that could work actually. I personally don't believe that this stuff works, but it would be fairly easy to write up a scientific methodology to test that and see what the results are, both with and without training (assuming I ever met someone who trained their 'esp' senses).

 

[Buka]

As a young student of the arts I would gladly do any exercise my Instructor presented.

But as a not so young student, you better show me you can do this and not get hit on the top of the head, or you are going to find yourself looking like a popsicle in a gi.

 

[WaterGal]

Sorry for delayed response possibility of the student using headphones that isolate sound from the surroundings such as earbuds where the volume could be raised just loud enough for the instructor to hear without damaging the student's hearing. To also eliminate echolocation of speakers in an open room. A test like this test could be done in a dojo environment, also with music or sounds the student doesn't care for or has never heard before.

If the objective is to see if the student has developed, basically, ESP, I think I'd go with noise-cancelling headphones and a blindfold. That could be interesting. I mean, I'm hugely skeptical that anyone would pass that test, but still, interesting.

 

[pgsmith]

Sorry for delayed response possibility of the student using headphones that isolate sound from the surroundings such as earbuds where the volume could be raised just loud enough for the instructor to hear without damaging the student's hearing. To also eliminate echolocation of speakers in an open room. A test like this test could be done in a dojo environment, also with music or sounds the student doesn't care for or has never heard before.

My biggest question would have to be "Why?" Why would anyone bother to do that. That particular test is only done within a particular art. Therefore, it has no relevance to anyone not practicing that art. If a person was practicing that art, then they would do the test the way their instructor tells them to without adding in changes.

Perplexed ...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If the objective is to see if the student has developed, basically, ESP, I think I'd go with noise-cancelling headphones and a blindfold. That could be interesting. I mean, I'm hugely skeptical that anyone would pass that test, but still, interesting.

I never went through that test, but I did spend a number of years in the Bujinkan and I've seen footage of some different people going through the test and talked to friends who passed it.

Basically, it is supposed to be a test of some sort of ESP (though it's never referred to by that name) - the ability to feel the "killer intent" of the person swinging the sword. We would occasionally "practice" for that sort of "skill" by standing in a circle facing outwards with our eyes closed while the instructor stood on the inside of the circle and either launched a slow attack or just directed "killer intention" at random students on the circle, with the idea that we should move when we felt the attack or the intention coming.

Here's the thing. If you're standing or kneeling with your eyes closed and you are told that there is an attack coming and you should move when you feel the attention directed at you - you will eventually get nervous and move. Sometimes that movement happens to correspond to the oncoming attack, more often it wasn't. However the successes were never attributed to chance no matter how many false positives occurred.

With regards to the official test, perhaps some of those who pass it get lucky and happen to move at about the right moment. (It's not like Hatsumi stands there for 20 minutes waiting to swing - it's a fairly short window during which you know the attack is coming. In the video you can see many of the guys being tested get multiple chances despite repeated false positives.) Perhaps some of those who pass are able to unconsciously pick up on some non-visual cue - a sound or an air current. Another possibility that I haven't heard mentioned is that Hatsumi can easily pass those people he wants to promote to 5th dan by deliberately starting his swing just as he sees the tester starting to flinch away. Something like that could even happen unconsciously without him meaning to do so.

Before I would accept the test as indicative of ESP, I would want to see a lot more controls. The test subjects would be fitted with a blindfold and noise-cancelling headphones. The person swinging the sword would receive a silent signal to swing the sword at a random time. The percentage of successes would be compared to the percentage of false positives in the available time. Those who passed the test would be re-tested to see if they could accomplish the feat consistently. If we found someone who could consistently pass the test at a rate greater than predicted by chance, I'd invite a professional magician in to examine the protocols and see if he could find a way that the test could be cheated.

I used to be more open minded about the possibility that this sort of thing might be real. At this point, my accumulated experience is such that I would require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims.