Glad I don't live in Australia

[Bill Mattocks]

I was stationed for awhile at HMAS Stirling, and spent some time in Perth, back in the 1980's. Amazing city, wonderful people. No disrespect intended. But I am glad I do not live there.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...-bassendean-home/story-e6frg143-1226007160365

A HOME owner who shot two intruders at his house in Bassendean on Monday night has been charged with possession of an unlicensed firearm and possession of unlicensed ammunition.

And it wasn't really a question of whether or not it was self-defense; it pretty clearly was...

Police will allege that two men, aged 30 and 31, broke into the house in Nurstead Avenue in Bassendean about 11pm on Monday night.

The 40-year-old resident of house, who was assaulted with an unknown object by one of the men, armed himself with a shotgun before shooting the two men.

Yeah, I'd be shooting at them also. But a) we don't have any registration of shotguns here, and b) I wouldn't register if we did, and c) under no circumstances am I prohibited from defending myself with deadly force after someone breaks into my home and attacks me. I would not want to live in the country that had a, b, or c as offenses.

 

[dancingalone]

I am curious how many states in the US would also charge the homeowner with a crime for defending his home. Not all states have a castle doctrine.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I think the lesson learned here, is not to not own a gun and not defend yourself in Australia.
Its more of make sure you have a shovel and a good spot to bury the bodies so you dont face unfair punishment for rightfully defending yourself.

 

[Empty Hands]

The charge wasn't murder or assault, the charge was unlawful possession. Nothing in the charges precludes self-defense per se. I'm no expert on criminal law, but wouldn't someone in the US face the same charges for home defense with a prohibited weapon, say a fully automatic weapon without the proper permit?

Granted, I find it completely unreasonable that a shotgun would be so considered, but that isn't really the point in dispute.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

The charge wasn't murder or assault, the charge was unlawful possession. Nothing in the charges precludes self-defense per se. I'm no expert on criminal law, but wouldn't someone in the US face the same charges for home defense with a prohibited weapon, say a fully automatic weapon without the proper permit?

Granted, I find it completely unreasonable that a shotgun would be so considered, but that isn't really the point in dispute.

Unreasonable laws should be ignored in my opinion.
I do however get that this is another country, culture and all... and like Bill says I would not want to live there, although I wouldnt mind visiting to explore all the incredible environment that Australia has to offer..

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I am curious how many states in the US would also charge the homeowner with a crime for defending his home. Not all states have a castle doctrine.

I am guessing (and it is only a guess) that not many states would have an issue with a person defending themselves with deadly force inside their home against intruders who had assaulted them. However, some cities would. Chicago, NYC, and some others, I'm sure. However, not Washington, DC anymore as far as I know, since the recent Supreme Court decision on the 2nd Amendment, and other similar city ordinances forbidding firearms are likely to fall as a result as well.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The charge wasn't murder or assault, the charge was unlawful possession. Nothing in the charges precludes self-defense per se. I'm no expert on criminal law, but wouldn't someone in the US face the same charges for home defense with a prohibited weapon, say a fully automatic weapon without the proper permit?

Granted, I find it completely unreasonable that a shotgun would be so considered, but that isn't really the point in dispute.

Good point, but consider that a person does not require a machine gun to defend themselves from home invasion. On the other hand, not allowing a firearm at all is a bit of a different situation. So perhaps it would have been legal if the homeowner had defended himself with, say, a stick.

I suppose my objection comes from the fact that both shotguns and ammunition are required to be registered before they can be legally owned in Perth, Western Australia (apparently). Not something that would make me want to live there, although as I said, I visited once on an extended military operation and it is a lovely place full of wonderful people.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Isn't this like saying you're "Glad you don't live in New York or Chicago?" Both of those cities have severe restrictions on owning the handguns many of us in other parts of the USA take for granted. If you shoot somebody with an unregistered weapon there, you'll face charges.

And, although I agree with Lucky Boxer that we can choose to ignore laws we find unreasonable, we must do so with the full acceptance that we may wind up going to jail or paying a fine when we decide to do so. A whole lot of civil rights activists had to spend some time in the pokey before we got rid of Jim Crow.

Out of curiosity, does anybody know what the penalty in Oz is for an unregistered shotgun?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Isn't this like saying you're "Glad you don't live in New York or Chicago?" Both of those cities have severe restrictions on owning the handguns many of us in other parts of the USA take for granted. If you shoot somebody with an unregistered weapon there, you'll face charges.

Yes, it is. I'm glad I don't live in Chicago or NYC either. Also Australia.

And, although I agree with Lucky Boxer that we can choose to ignore laws we find unreasonable, we must do so with the full acceptance that we may wind up going to jail or paying a fine when we decide to do so. A whole lot of civil rights activists had to spend some time in the pokey before we got rid of Jim Crow.

Out of curiosity, does anybody know what the penalty in Oz is for an unregistered shotgun?

I do not know, but I found this interesting thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

State laws govern the possession and use of firearms in Australia. These laws were largely aligned under the 1996 National Agreement on Firearms. Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms.
Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g. Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defense is not accepted as a reason for issuing a licence, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defense.[2]

So, just be clear, you can't register a shotgun for the specific purpose of self-defense in Australia. You might be able to register one for other purposes and just happen to end up using it for self-defense, though.

Perth is in Western Australia:

http://www.police.wa.gov.au/Ourservices/Firearms/Legislation/tabid/1621/Default.aspx

I looked over the laws, but unlike the USA, they don't seem to list the range of possible punishments.

 

[Empty Hands]

I suppose my objection comes from the fact that both shotguns and ammunition are required to be registered before they can be legally owned in Perth, Western Australia (apparently).

I agree. Even if you are for gun control (I am not) the shotgun is the last weapon you would want to ban, because it is very effective for home defense, poses little risk to neighbors, and isn't very useful for street crime.

However, that is actually a separate discussion. In this case, the fact that the homeowner defended himself from an attacker is a distraction and clouds the discussion, since he is not being charged for defending himself.

 

[wayneshin]

I suppose my objection comes from the fact that both shotguns and ammunition are required to be registered before they can be legally owned in Perth, Western Australia (apparently). Not something that would make me want to live there, although as I said, I visited once on an extended military operation and it is a lovely place full of wonderful people.

Your objection comes from the fact that you have been born and raised in a culture which lives with the second amendment. Over here these items are supposed to be registered and most Australians don't have a issue with that. Our gun laws were tightened severely after the Port Arthur massacre when 27(?) people were killed and I for one applaud any measure that stops such a thing happening here again.

 

[K-man]

I was stationed for awhile at HMAS Stirling, and spent some time in Perth, back in the 1980's. Amazing city, wonderful people. No disrespect intended. But I am glad I do not live there.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...-bassendean-home/story-e6frg143-1226007160365

And it wasn't really a question of whether or not it was self-defense; it pretty clearly was...

Yeah, I'd be shooting at them also. But a) we don't have any registration of shotguns here, and b) I wouldn't register if we did, and c) under no circumstances am I prohibited from defending myself with deadly force after someone breaks into my home and attacks me. I would not want to live in the country that had a, b, or c as offenses.

Well Bill, I guess we'll have to agree to be different. And you won't be pleased to know we now have less guns in the community than when you were here back in the 80s. I can't believe anyone would choose to live in a counrty based on the right to have an illegal weapon! You see I have a 1 in 100,000 chance of dying from a gunshot wound in Australia. You have 10 in 100,000 or depending in what state you live up to 20 in 100,000.

That doesn't sound many until you look at the population. You guys lose about 35,000 people a year. We lose about 250! Of those more than 2/3 are suicide. That means we have about 80 deaths a year from accident, homicide and police shootings. About 17,000 Americans kill themselves with firearms each year. That leaves about 18,000 compared with our 80.

I gave my rifle up years ago. I just wasn't using it for hunting any more. I could have one tomorrow if I choose, but why? Strange to you guys I know, but we don't see the need to have guns to protect ourselves. Apart from accidents, very few of our shootings involve people not involved in criminal activity! What I mean is, the crims shoot each other. There are few innocent victims.

We cannot possess a firearm for self protection. We can have a firearm to hunt or if you're a farmer you are exempted from a lot of regulations.

BTW, each time I have been in the US, I really haven't felt the need for a firearm. Last time there I rode the Subway at night, I wandered through Central Park, I wandered all around Harlem with my wife, not a problem.

Now, let's look at self defence. I am entitled to use reasonable force. Using a shotgun against a baseball bat is not reasonable force. To be honest we don't cop a lot of aggrevated burglary anyway.

The guy in Perth was stupid. Unless he had convictions leading to him not being legally able to own a firearm, why wouldn't he register it? It doesn't say what the circumstances were. Did the intruders know he had drugs on the premises?
And from the perspective of a LEO. For example, knowing whether or not there are likely to be firearms if they are called to a domestic or if they pull over a motor vehicle, has to be a big factor in the way they approach the matter.

If I shoot someone I would expect to go to jail. I sleep at night with the windows open, and the door just snibbed. Why would I want to have everyone in the neighbourhood running round with guns?

There are often threads posted about how some people have the temerity to suggest that there should be more gun control and I keep well clear. It is up to Americans to decide if they want unregulated firearms or not. To be honest it is a totally different mentality that I can't comprehend. So I would respectfully suggest that you guys keep all the guns over there in "Fortress America" and we'll enloy the relaxed lifestyle to which we have become accustomed without worrying about whether on not we will be shot, robbed, stabbed mugged or whatever. Strange but true, the majority of Australians don't want guns in the community. :asian:

 

[Sukerkin]

That was very well put, K-man and I do agree with you that there are dstinct cultural forces at work when we look at this topic.

In fact, on a 'moral' level I agree entirely that we would all be better off without lethal weaponry to hand, especially easy to use lethal weaponry.

However, my touchstone phrases when it comes to decent citizens being armed are twofold.

The first is that an armed society is a polite society. If you are likely to end up with a sword in your ribs you learn quickly to guard your tongue - admittedly this does not seem to hold true in America and I have no explanation for that.

The second and more important is something I stole from Tolkien in my youth. It's a statement by Eowyn that is intended to speak about women but applies equally well across all genders and ages viz those without weapons can still die by them.

 

[Carol]

I can potentially walk or drive down the street with all kinds of goodies -- concealed or not -- and not be afoul of the law.

In less than 2 weeks, I'll be taking a job in Massachusetts. If for some reason the job offer falls through and I end up staying where I am, my job still moves to Mass...my company got bought and my office is closing permanently. My carry rights will be eroded to the point where I cannot even carry pepper spray in the car on my daily commute.

The fact that I'm a good citizen that doesn't cause LE any trouble is irrelevant. What I am allowed to carry in my home city, about 15 km away, is irrelevant. The fact that I will be paying Mass. income taxes set by politicians that I cannot vote for, and for services that I cannot receive is irrelevant.

You good folks in Australia and the UK can run your respective countries any way you wish. I may get around to disagreeing with you one of these days, but for the time being, I'm far more concerned about my own.

 

[mook jong man]

No offence , but down here , we're all glad we don't live in America.

Look we understand The Great Southern Land is not to everybody's taste.
We like it , but realise it does have it's short comings.


The women aren't all that much to look at I'm afraid.

The tourist areas can get quite crowded and polluted.

It can be hard to get a beer large enough to satisfy a man sized thirst , so we are forced to drink out of these small bottles called stubbies.

Australian food and wine tends to be bland and unappetising , and restaurants are quite primitive by world standards as they lack such basics as walls and a roof , and whats with the big ugly red rock in the background?

The weather can be very annoying at times , all that sunshine can cause people to become quite depressed , as we all walk around thinking , Gee , if only we could carry around a 357 magnum or an M16 like they do in other countries.

Yes I know , the place is an absolute hell hole , sometimes I don't know how we can stand it .

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Bill,

To be frank here, if you had been raised in Australia you'd probably be just as confused by the propensity of Americans to look to an outdated and rather openly interpreted piece of the Bill of Rights to justify their personal needs to carry lethal weaponry, even to deliberately carry it in concealed carry options. Frankly, to the Australian mentality, the idea of carrying a gun around, concealed, means either you're an under-cover police officer, or a criminal. If the former, okay, if the latter, not someone to emulate or be associated with.

Personally, to me it comes across as a fear-based responce. In other words, they all have guns, if I don't have one (or two.... or three.... or six), then they'll all be able to get me! It's the same idea that drove the Cold War and the Nuclear Arms Race (which is where the cultural psychology seems to come from.... or vice versa, really), we have to have spies and nuclear weapons because they have them, but now because we have them, they got more, so now we need more than them, and so on. It's an unwinnable situation, all that happens is the society becomes more and more insular, holding themselves back for fear of what the other guy might have, while ironically telling themselves that they are safer, or more powerful, leading to some major cultural psychological ego issues.

I agree. Even if you are for gun control (I am not) the shotgun is the last weapon you would want to ban, because it is very effective for home defense, poses little risk to neighbors, and isn't very useful for street crime.

However, that is actually a separate discussion. In this case, the fact that the homeowner defended himself from an attacker is a distraction and clouds the discussion, since he is not being charged for defending himself.

I agree it's another conversation, are you really suggesting that a shotgun isn't useful for criminal activity? First thing that pops into my mind is using it to hold-up a store...

Unreasonable laws should be ignored in my opinion.
I do however get that this is another country, culture and all... and like Bill says I would not want to live there, although I wouldnt mind visiting to explore all the incredible environment that Australia has to offer..

Uh, really? First off, such thought processes are a good way to end up in jail.

But let's look at the statement you just made in context, shall we? What makes it unreasonable? In Australia, you have to have a legal, justifiable reason to have a weapon. And that does not include "I want to kill someone who comes into my house!" Legal, justifiable reasons include being a farmer to protect against pests and for other use around the farm (with regard to livestock, so there's no confusion here), or being a hunter, with the requisite licences. Gun crime is minimalist, and primarily contained within the small criminal community (between themselves, as stated by K-Man above). Basically, for a community as relatively safe as Australia, with the amount of gun-control in effect, having an unregistered weapon in your home for home defence is not considered a reasonable reason. So the law is perfectly reasonable.

So you know, though, we have far more issues with knives than guns, and there have been major crackdowns on those in recent times. And as this (as well as gun laws) are supported by the vast majority of Australians, I suppose we'd consider such things fairly reasonable.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That doesn't sound many until you look at the population. You guys lose about 35,000 people a year. We lose about 250! Of those more than 2/3 are suicide. That means we have about 80 deaths a year from accident, homicide and police shootings. About 17,000 Americans kill themselves with firearms each year. That leaves about 18,000 compared with our 80.

Population of USA: 300 million
Population of Australia: 21 million

I gave my rifle up years ago. I just wasn't using it for hunting any more. I could have one tomorrow if I choose, but why? Strange to you guys I know, but we don't see the need to have guns to protect ourselves. Apart from accidents, very few of our shootings involve people not involved in criminal activity! What I mean is, the crims shoot each other. There are few innocent victims.

So you're willing to be one of the 'few' innocent victims?

Now, let's look at self defence. I am entitled to use reasonable force. Using a shotgun against a baseball bat is not reasonable force.

If I'm an 80 year old man and a 20 year old comes at me with a baseball bat, a shotgun is more than reasonable. If I'm a woman and a man comes at me with a baseball bat, a shotgun is perfectly understandable. If I'm woken from a deep sleep, groggy, scared out of my wits, can't find my glasses, and a strange man is pounding me with a baseball bat, a shotgun seems pretty reasonable to me. Reasonable force? Self-defense is not about matching force with force, ability with ability, being 'fair'. If that were the case, we'd not use martial arts training to defend ourselves, it gives us an 'unfair' advantage over the untrained.

The guy in Perth was stupid. Unless he had convictions leading to him not being legally able to own a firearm, why wouldn't he register it? It doesn't say what the circumstances were. Did the intruders know he had drugs on the premises?
And from the perspective of a LEO. For example, knowing whether or not there are likely to be firearms if they are called to a domestic or if they pull over a motor vehicle, has to be a big factor in the way they approach the matter.

Well, there's the reason that I would not want to live in Australia. Blame the victim. He must have something to hide. He must be a drug dealer. Yes, that's it. The poor, poor criminal must be protected.

If I shoot someone I would expect to go to jail. I sleep at night with the windows open, and the door just snibbed. Why would I want to have everyone in the neighbourhood running round with guns?

I don't know. I would not want everyone 'running around with guns' but then I don't 'run around with guns' either. But I own them, and I want to continue owning them.

There are often threads posted about how some people have the temerity to suggest that there should be more gun control and I keep well clear. It is up to Americans to decide if they want unregulated firearms or not. To be honest it is a totally different mentality that I can't comprehend. So I would respectfully suggest that you guys keep all the guns over there in "Fortress America" and we'll enloy the relaxed lifestyle to which we have become accustomed without worrying about whether on not we will be shot, robbed, stabbed mugged or whatever. Strange but true, the majority of Australians don't want guns in the community. :asian:

I'm totally cool with that. I would not dare tell Australians how to live their lives. As I've said, I've been there and I like it a lot. I'd love to visit again some day. However, my original statement stands. I would not want to live there, and the reason is primarily because I would not be allowed to own guns or defend myself with deadly force if the need ever arose. You have every right to run your country as you see fit; and I have every right not to want to live in that society.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

To be frank here, if you had been raised in Australia you'd probably be just as confused by the propensity of Americans to look to an outdated and rather openly interpreted piece of the Bill of Rights to justify their personal needs to carry lethal weaponry, even to deliberately carry it in concealed carry options. Frankly, to the Australian mentality, the idea of carrying a gun around, concealed, means either you're an under-cover police officer, or a criminal. If the former, okay, if the latter, not someone to emulate or be associated with.

I was actually just referring to the ability to keep a firearm in my home, not carry one around. I don't carry a weapon, concealed or otherwise.

Personally, to me it comes across as a fear-based responce. In other words, they all have guns, if I don't have one (or two.... or three.... or six), then they'll all be able to get me! It's the same idea that drove the Cold War and the Nuclear Arms Race (which is where the cultural psychology seems to come from.... or vice versa, really), we have to have spies and nuclear weapons because they have them, but now because we have them, they got more, so now we need more than them, and so on. It's an unwinnable situation, all that happens is the society becomes more and more insular, holding themselves back for fear of what the other guy might have, while ironically telling themselves that they are safer, or more powerful, leading to some major cultural psychological ego issues.

I agree that it is fear-based. And fear is an utterly reasonable response to facts. In the USA, many criminals who invade homes are armed. If I am not armed, I am at the mercy of the person or persons who break in; they can kill me or not kill me at their discretion. I do not want my living or dying to be at the discretion of a criminal armed with a handgun, drunk or high, scared out of his wits and trying to show his manhood off to his buddies. No, thanks. Fear? Yes, fear. And I'd be foolish if I thought that my fear was not reality-based. I have only to Google News for 'home invasion' to see the facts. Fear? Yes, fear. And that fear is entirely reasonable. Only a foolish person ignores reasonable fear.

I agree it's another conversation, are you really suggesting that a shotgun isn't useful for criminal activity? First thing that pops into my mind is using it to hold-up a store...

I'm sure criminals use shotguns, but honestly, most of them in the USA use pistols of various sorts. They can conceal it until they draw it and announce the robbery. It's hard to walk down the street with a shotgun in your pants.

 

[seasoned]

No offence , but down here , we're all glad we don't live in America.

Look we understand The Great Southern Land is not to everybody's taste.
We like it , but realise it does have it's short comings.


The women aren't all that much to look at I'm afraid.

The tourist areas can get quite crowded and polluted.

It can be hard to get a beer large enough to satisfy a man sized thirst , so we are forced to drink out of these small bottles called stubbies.

Australian food and wine tends to be bland and unappetising , and restaurants are quite primitive by world standards as they lack such basics as walls and a roof , and whats with the big ugly red rock in the background?

The weather can be very annoying at times , all that sunshine can cause people to become quite depressed , as we all walk around thinking , Gee , if only we could carry around a 357 magnum or an M16 like they do in other countries.

Yes I know , the place is an absolute hell hole , sometimes I don't know how we can stand it .

After looking at your pictures, even if you guys had guns there, where would you carry them? The weather is not conducive for carry, you need some bulky coats and sweaters.

 

[mook jong man]

After looking at your pictures, even if you guys had guns there, where would you carry them? The weather is not conducive for carry, you need some bulky coats and sweaters.

Well thats right Seasoned , it does present a unique problem.

You can imagine the embarrassment that could occur if I wandered up to you on Bondi Beach with a Beretta down the front of my Speedo's.
Instead of admiring my concealed carry , you might just think I was glad to see you.